Micro V-Scrog Cab

[Skillet]

Hello everyone!

So far this is just an idea as I already have a perfectly functional cabinet in operation. But, since I live in NY City and floor space is always at a premium, I am looking to downsize eventually. I've decided on making two small cabs each the size of an end table or bedside table (16x16x32).

So far, I've modeled the flower chamber on the computer, and just need a few fresh pairs of eyes to find my mistakes.

I'll describe it in addition to the pictures. It'll be made from 1x1 framing and 1/4" hardboard sheeting. The door will be a removable panel. Lighting will be a Lumatek 150/175/250W digital ballast so I can fine-tune my light levels. The lamp will be hung vertically with a screen surrounding it to keep the plants at least 5" from the bulb. I will have a small fan blowing on the bulb to keep it relatively cool (not pictured). Ventilation is an 80CFM Panasonic Whisperfan with a DIY carbon filter and passive intake in the floor. The pot itself will be custom made, approx 12"x12"x6"). The powerstrip, timer, and DC converter for PC fans will be housed in the top chamber next to the fan and ballast.

I am planning on mounting the lamp so that it is connected to the platform the pot is on, which will slide out with kitchen drawer sliders (not pictured).

So, I've been thinking and planning this for a while now, and I figured it was time to make it official! I'm not building yet (and maybe not for a while) but I always like to plan. And there comes a time in all plans when one must present his ideas for critique by the public. So without further ado, critique away!

Skillet

 

[someotherguy]

high man, i see i'm the first to sign on for the show
and i'm looking forward to it.

also, you were right, we were jacking that other thread
so i went looking to join one of your's, lol.

anyway, don't take me wrong, i'm a big believer in DIY,
everything i've used up to this point is custom built,
by me, and i'm happy with the results, it's just that i've
been at this a while now and i know my DIY cooltube
and reflector can't possibly be as good as a proper
hood.

anyway, i'm only buying the hood, the ballast i'm
building myself from a kit, lol.

so, since i don't have any suggestions for your
SCROG's, i'll just kick back and watch, lol.

peace, and stay safe, SOG

 

[Skillet]

Good idea coming over here, and I'm glad to see a bit of attention on this thread. Maybe you can help me though, in my years growing I've always been paranoid of buying seeds so I've just done bag seeds (and a few have turned out quite well). Anyway, I figure for a space so short and requiring so much branching from one plant, I'm ready to buy some designer seeds. So, know of any strain that has a very uniform and short stretch and responds well to multiple toppings and LST?

I hear you on the build a ballast, I've made most of my lamps from security lights and high-bays and they turned out great. The thing I really like about my current set-up is that I actually don't need a reflector at all, as it's a vertical grow. The thing I don't like about it is that a large wardrobe that makes a slight humming sound is a bit obtrusive for me. So, I'm trying to scale down some more. I figure nobody besides me or my lady will ever spend too much time lying in our bed, and the slight noise from those fans (so damn quiet!) will act as a sort of white noise machine to dull the noise of the city at night.

I also don't really need a perpetual setup anymore as my work takes me out of the city for almost the entire summer, and I can't tend the ladies over the internet. So, this will have to work for me! I'm thinking 2-3 grows/year, starting seeds in late august, then clones the next 2 runs. I guess I'll yield around 4 oz. the first time in a cab this small, and increase from there as I figure out this new space. Any thoughts there?

 

[Skillet]

This is part shameless bump for attention and part plea for criticism. Seriously, I want to have everything planned out before I start.

Anything you think won't work? Any suggestions to make it better?

Skillet

 

[alphacat]

I've been researching and scheming about a concept very similar to this for about 5 years now without having actually built one - yet - but coincidentally am about to go ahead and build a proof-of-concept design soon [hopefully.]

The following is only opinion; some of it is more informed by what I've read from people who've built v-scrogs, some of it my engineering background and experience of other grow styles/mediums.

The key with scaled down systems is that some factors experience inverse increases in importance, and in this case ventilation is that inverse factor. The bigger the room, the less you have to worry about it and vice versa (the logical opposite extreme being outdoors, for example)...

==========================

First, temperature control in a space like that - with an HID, and bearing in mind how hot NYC gets in the summer - is going to be a potential showstopper.

Not only will the actual cab space retain a lot of radiant AND conductive heat that even a 250 cfm fan won't be able to handle, but your reservoir is gonna get too warm to make it viable. You could consider buying a small aquarium chiller for the res but the real issue is the HID bulb.

I strongly urge you to consider using fluoros, maybe multiple 125w CFLs or pl-l units: also, consider tinkering with the ventilation setup - outtake vents right next to the bulbs, cooltubes, anything that gets the heat out of there as quickly and efficiently as possible (even fluoros get hot.) Using fluoros also saves a little space since you can get the plants closer to the bulbs (up to 2", but be careful not to go past that.)

Second - choice of strain becomes more critical in this kind of setup too, and I honestly can't help as much here save to recommend traits to look for. You're gonna want to flower early; you'll want a strain that's branchy but doesn't put on much stretch (which is further complicated by using fluoros, which can tend to encourage stretchiness); and you'll want to use the lowest-odor strain you can get that meets the above criteria, simply because you WILL smell it. Period. No matter what anybody says about their stock, the last week or two of flower will smell at least a little.

With this stuff in mind I think certain C99 phenos and crosses might be the ticket, since some of 'em smell more like fruit than ganj in flower, and because they've been known to fit the bill in the other regards too - internodal stretch being the biggest variable from pheno to pheno.

==========================

That's just my two cents though. Maybe you should hit up the vertical forum folks with this too.

 

[FreezerBoy]

1.8 sf at 50 wsf is 90 watts. If stealth is a concern, a 150 would be a real handful of trouble, a 250 would be a nightmare.

 

[Skillet]

Hey alphacat,
Thanks for stopping in, I'm glad to see other people are thinking about similar things. Thanks for the input, but you may have missed a few things in my original post.

First, there won't be a reservoir because I'll be growing organically in compost. I do have a cooltube (which I admit I did not mention in my original post as it's currently in use but could be used if needed (and I probably will need it)). Also, the HID in question is a 150/175/250 watt switchable model. I can see the possibility of pl-ls for their reduced radiant heat, but I'm not sure multiple 125w CFLs (at least 250w total) would help reduce heat more than running a 250w MH or HPS dimmed to 150w in a cooltube.

I have been thinking that maybe the 80 CFM fan wouldn't be enough and could go to a 110 CFM one, but they're not as quiet, and I'd like it to be as quiet as possible. I currently have a 150w HPS hung vertically in a similar space and the heat isn't at all unmanageable with less ventilation, so I thought it might work.

Second, there's no way on Earth I'd EVER grow without a carbon filter. I'm going to make a DIY filter in the intake side of the fan itself. It'll be a 1" (or more?) bed of activated carbon about 11" x 11". So, don't worry about that. Also, I just happened to get my hands on some Joey Weed C99 F2s that I think I'll grow out in my main cab and chose a clone from for this micro cab. What a coincidence.


I'm excited to see your proof-of-concept when it happens, I was actually at Home Depot looking at prices and think I'll save a lot of money by just using paint grade 5/8" ply instead of doing a frame and skin like I'd thought before. Maybe we should have a friendly race to see who can build a prototype first?

 

[Skillet]

1.8 sf at 50 wsf is 90 watts. If stealth is a concern, a 150 would be a real handful of trouble, a 250 would be a nightmare.

Thanks for dropping in!
1.8 sf is the floor area, but since the canopy is a cylinder, if it's got a diameter of 12" and is around 16" high, it works out to about 4.2 sf. At 50w/sf, I've got around 200w. Does it work this way? Also, I can use a cooltube if I need to to keep the heat down a bit more.

I've also been thinking of expanding the dimensions a bit to about 20" maybe. That would make the floor area 2.7 sf, for 139w, so a 150 isn't far off. Think this would help?

 

[FreezerBoy]

D'oh. You got me on the square footage deal but, here's my point. My cab is 22x29x54 with a 250 and lives in the garage. As long as temps are 70ºF and lower, I'm OK but, summer turns the cab into an Easy Bake oven. Cooling means noise and my fan is the first thing you hear coming into my garage. The noise is inescapable but, that's OK for me because my cab's a beat up old freezer that's expected to make wheezing, humming noises. If your night stand sounds like a beat up old freezer, people will ask why.

I'm not saying a 250 can't be done, it's just a matter of how much noise you're OK with. If you're looking for hide in plain site stealth even a 150 may take some work.

Have you seen this? Panasonic Whisper Fan Carbon Scrubber Tutorial: Quietest most efficient fan ever!

 

[JuC]

nice idea, hope you will show us how you build up this box

 

[Skillet]

D'oh. You got me on the square footage deal but, here's my point. My cab is 22x29x54 with a 250 and lives in the garage. As long as temps are 70ºF and lower, I'm OK but, summer turns the cab into an Easy Bake oven. Cooling means noise and my fan is the first thing you hear coming into my garage. The noise is inescapable but, that's OK for me because my cab's a beat up old freezer that's expected to make wheezing, humming noises. If your night stand sounds like a beat up old freezer, people will ask why.

I'm not saying a 250 can't be done, it's just a matter of how much noise you're OK with. If you're looking for hide in plain site stealth even a 150 may take some work.

Have you seen this? Panasonic Whisper Fan Carbon Scrubber Tutorial: Quietest most efficient fan ever!

Hi Freezerboy,
I'm glad I was right with the square footage thing, I wasn't entirely sure if the 50w/sf rule holds up for vertical canopies as well.

I have seen that whisperfan thread, that's the whole reason I thought I could downsize so much. My old inline fans sounded like jets, but I have a 150CFM 6" whisper and it's less than half as loud. Woo! And the manufacturers specs say the 80CFM is .3 sones, compared to .6 for the 150CFM. The only change I make will be that my carbon layer will be under the fan rather than on top.

I wasn't planning on using this bad boy in the summer, as I'm out of the city all summer anyway! So that makes my heat hurdles slightly shorter. I also planned to use the dimmable ballast so that 250w would only be used if I actually could (say if the heat in the apartment goes out in the dead of February) and because I just want one anyway for another project in the future. I also have a spare 100w MH ballast laying around that I can use if 150 is even too much. And if the 100w is too much, then I'll just give up and blow smoke into it so the apartment doesn't stink.

And to JuC, construction should start next week sometime? Or maybe the next week (sometimes I get just a bit lazy in the summer). I'll make sure I document the build well.

Thanks everyone for their input, and stay tuned!
Skillet

PS- any more strain suggestions other than C99?

 

[alphacat]

Ah, didn't catch the compost bit. That'll definitely help in some ways, although it may also contribute to humidity. Hopefully the ventilation will negate that as an issue too - maybe start with the 150 and scale down only if you need to (which I don't think you will. It's easy to underestimate ventilation.)

However, as regards HID's - switchable or no, even a 150 gets hot. Give it a test run without the cooltube, but if it gets past 78* or so definitely put it on.

And even with a carbon filter and gaskets out the ass, there are many so-called "low odor" strains out there that'll still manage to put out a little funk. I'm happy to hear that you also decided on C99 - the pineapple pheno's supposed to be manageable and not too much of a giveaway.

re: friendly race - heh, I'm flattered. Unfortunately my time has gone out the window lately with a heavy job, a new family, and playing music... I'll be lucky if I make this happen by xmas, honestly. But I'm going to set up a scaled-down version soon and work out any unforeseen design kinks, so I'll be sure to share it with ya too. Meanwhile... make this happen! I can learn from what you find as well. V-Scrog *IS* the future imho.

Hey alphacat,
Thanks for stopping in, I'm glad to see other people are thinking about similar things. Thanks for the input, but you may have missed a few things in my original post...

First, there won't be a reservoir because I'll be growing organically in compost. I do have a cooltube (which I admit I did not mention in my original post as it's currently in use but could be used if needed (and I probably will need it)). Also, the HID in question is a 150/175/250 watt switchable model. I can see the possibility of pl-ls for their reduced radiant heat, but I'm not sure multiple 125w CFLs (at least 250w total) would help reduce heat more than running a 250w MH or HPS dimmed to 150w in a cooltube.

I have been thinking that maybe the 80 CFM fan wouldn't be enough and could go to a 110 CFM one, but they're not as quiet, and I'd like it to be as quiet as possible. I currently have a 150w HPS hung vertically in a similar space and the heat isn't at all unmanageable with less ventilation, so I thought it might work.

Second, there's no way on Earth I'd EVER grow without a carbon filter. I'm going to make a DIY filter in the intake side of the fan itself. It'll be a 1" (or more?) bed of activated carbon about 11" x 11". So, don't worry about that. Also, I just happened to get my hands on some Joey Weed C99 F2s that I think I'll grow out in my main cab and chose a clone from for this micro cab. What a coincidence.


I'm excited to see your proof-of-concept when it happens, I was actually at Home Depot looking at prices and think I'll save a lot of money by just using paint grade 5/8" ply instead of doing a frame and skin like I'd thought before. Maybe we should have a friendly race to see who can build a prototype first?

 

[big ballin 88]

you mean something like this...



Granted this is CMH. Temps dont go above 85 being hooked up to a TD100x. I try to keep it on high when hooked up to the carbon filter. I'm gonna be switching back to HPS on my next grow and use smaller pots....

 

[Skillet]

Hi AlphaCat,
Humidity shouldn't be too much of a problem, I actually have trouble keeping it high enough for seedlings in my current cabinet. I'm running two 150w HPS in a cooltube in that, and the temps have been easily manageable once I increased the intakes.

This new design has a much more free-flowing intake with half the volume and light, but more ventilation. And it'll be a cleaner setup since I won't be rushing at all.

Hey Big Ballin,
That's almost exactly what I'm talking about, only shorter and with a different fan and filter setup too. I'm also planning on growing only one clone at a time, and making it a solitary bowl of buds around the bulb. But I'm glad to see that you got a C99 female, as that's what I'm planning on growing in my cab and it'll be great to see how it performs in such a similar setup.

~Skillet

Also, the new plans using 1/2" ply rather than a 1"x1" frame and 1/4" sheeting have been drawn up, supplies are to be purchased soon, maybe tomorrow depending on how work goes and how nice the weather is for golf, of course. Stay tuned!

 

[Skillet]

So it's perfect weather for golf (not common!), so cab construction has been put on hold.

Also, I think I want to save myself some time and effort and use a pre-bought filter rather than make my own. I found that a 150CFM Phresh filter is about the smallest in size you can find, but in order to fit it in the top section I'll have to make the box a bit wider than I'd originally planned. And, this will add volume and help to address the point alphacat made about the inverse relationship between volume and ventilation needs earlier.

So I modified my plan to make it 20"x20" instead of 16"x16". This will let the filter (which is just shy of 7 3/4") fit next to the fan in the top section and still leave room for the ballast behind the fan.

(For reference, in the top section the large box is an 80CFM whisperfan, the cylinder is the 150 CFM Phresh filter, and the purple box is the Lumatek dimmable 250w ballast.)

 

[OrgAeroMan]

Skillet, I don't think you'll have a problem controlling temps with a 150, after all my cab is 18x18x24 (internal dimensions) with 8 2" circular passive intakes and an ~80cfm pc fan was enough to cool my cool tubed lamp ~78-80 *F. The smell started to get out of control though so I opted for my 200cfm hydrofarm inline blowing into a carbon filter. It's really not that noisy at all, the jet engine noise gets dissipated by the mesh/ carbon/ pre-filter. I think you have a solid design. I can't comment on the 250w but trial and error. Cornfield used a similar setup with his old 250 vert grows, look him up, he's on IC. Good luck buddy, grow hard and of course keep me updated!

 

[OrgAeroMan]

You might also be able to deal with the humidity of the compost with panda poly (white side up) if the problem should arise, plus you'd get more reflection.This guy also does vert 250: funkervogt check him out.

 

[Skillet]

Hi OrgAeroMan,
Thanks for stopping by! Glad to hear you think my ventilation will work, I was getting a little worried about that part. But, since your cab has smaller dimensions and worked fine with 80CFM, I should be okay. Especially since the Panasonic Whisperfan moves air at MUCH greater pressure than a PC fan can. My passive intake will also be pretty free-flowing and easy to add a fan or two for active intake if the heat is a problem.

Thanks for pointing me to other 250w Vert grows, I'll check them out now!

Skillet

 

[OrgAeroMan]

I just had a thought. My cab, having smaller dimensions, would replace the air completely at a faster rate at the same cfm. Just something to think about, but I still think you'll be ok because the static pressure is much higher. I've seen other grows on the icmag's diy link o rama using the whisperline and a 150w. It's in the ventilation portion. I believe there is also a chart somewhere that compares cfm to wattage to ambient temps. It might be in ventilation 101.

 

[Skillet]

I hear what you're saying about your smaller cab size exchanging it's air faster with the same CFMs, but cabinets tend to need more ventilation the smaller they get, it's the inverse rule alphacat mentioned on the first page. So it stands to reason the 80CFM fan should work then. I'm ordering the fan and filter now, the project should begin soon!

Stay tuned!
Skillet