Marijuana Law At The Periphery...

[Hal]

I have questions about an area of marijuana law that will test the knowledge of most lay folks and likely most attorneys, unless they specialize in this area. My questions don't pertain to the substance, but to the dissemination of information about: pot, growing it; and to the sale of product(s) that aid in growing it.

The most obvious analogy would be to marijuana smoking instruments. There are many businesses which sell bongs and such, but it seems to be a universal law that discussing the contents to be smoked cannot involve suggestion of marijuana.

Yet, in a business that doesn't deal in such paraphenalia, the discussion on growing marijuana happens regularly...Borders, Barnes and Noble, and your friendly local independent bookstore. The information exchanged is in written form, but it is still communicating info that is about a illegal subject.

So, it seems like the laws on the periphery might be a bit schizoid. Its clear that a substance which is deemed illegal would be against the law. Its clear that growing the substance would also be illegal, it is a form of possession (don't get me wrong, these laws are shit, should be changed, I'm just looking at how it is today). But, I was under the general impression that in this country, you can't be prosecuted for exchanging information. This is why books like THE ANARCHIST'S COOK BOOK haven't been touched by all the puritanical crackpots....right?

The reason this question is on my mind now is because I'm wondering what legal consequences a person would be looking at if they started a business that built indoor growing cabinets for folks who want to grow their own. Much like the cabinet shops that are out there currently that service general construction of kitchen cabinets, except this would be a specialty service.

Along with that question, I would want to know, what exactly in the law, speaks to disseminating information about things that are illegal. It would seem that anyone who operated the specialty cabinet shop mentioned above, the ability to give advice to customers concerning how to use your product would be very beneficial to getting great customer service reviews (word of mouth advertising).

I'd like to know what laws stand in the way of operating a business that (A) doesn't sell pot, but, (B) is involved in things that are legal except for their association with pot.

I'm already assuming that the general "friendliness" toward this type of business would be more positive in states that have medical marijuana, and likely would mirror their state's own laws regarding marijuana. What I am interested in is the actual law that would be referenced in court when you were being brought up on charges.

Any lawyers out there?

 

[JJScorpio]

Two people simply discussing growing bud are doing nothing except exercising their freedom of speech. Now, take the same two people discussing how to grow pot, and now they go out and buy lights, soil and nutes. Now they have commited conspiracy to grow marijuana. This is because they acted on their discussion and made a plan, and acted on that plan.

You have every right in the world to build cabinets for people to use indoors to grow vegatables. Build one, grow some veggies in it, snap a few pics and make some sale pamphlets. But if someone were to ask you if it could be used to grow weed you need to say "growing weed is illegal and that's not the purpose I made them for". That's how hydroponic shops stay open. They are there under the premise that they sell products so people can have indoor gardens.

 

[Hal]

Hmmmmm....so, you're saying that the information about, and the discussion of, pot is legal; and the sale of products that can grow pot, along with many other kinds of plants, is legal; but it is the conjunction of those two realities that creates the illegality? That is interesting.

I had the feeling that the only way around the problem would be to advertise the cabinets as "vegetable growing" cabinets. And, it would probably be obvious enough to cannabis-saavy grower-types, so that it would be understood what they would be best used for. But it would be so damn valuable to impart how the cabinet really works, because this business would be like any other and depend on excellent salesmanship to bring in the clients. I wouldn't be able to really "make the close," like can be done in other businesses. I have a feeling this could come into play on whether to purchase this cabinet, given its fringe nature. Potential customers, many who probably have never grown pot before, could easily need some convincing....quite a few would be worried about other connected issues, like getting busted, etc., and so could already be leaning away from spending their hard earned buckaroos. So, I think having the ability to effectively sell the cabinet, would be crucial to your standard of living.

Just saying, I wonder if there are ways around the law, that maybe hasn't been explored fully yet. Maybe there are one of those loopholes that the rich folk are always finding buried in the legalese. Hell, I just want to give people information....I need an information loop-hole.

Thanks for the pointers JJ.

PS...I wanted to give ya some Rep, but I can't due to being too generous with the rep today. Getting lots of good answers today

 

[JJScorpio]

That is the only way you can sell them. You have to say they were built to grow veggies.

By someone discussing growing it, I meant two random people.

 

[SouthernGuerila]

This is why books like THE ANARCHIST'S COOK BOOK haven't been touched by all the puritanical crackpots...

A lot of the specs in the Anarchist Cookbook / Terrorist Handbook are very inaccurate and one attempting most of the procedures are more likely to injure themselves than they are to develop "high order" explosives(such as PETN, RDX, etc..).

"...was barely a cookbook, as the recipes in it are notoriously unreliable. At best, it was a fraud, a spoof; at worst, an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of anarchist practice, and cause readers to injure themselves." - http://www.crimethinc.com/books/rfd.html

 

[Hal]

I did not know that Southern...

As I get older, and have the opportunity to have experienced "something learned...," only to find out sometime later that it wasn't true at all. This usually happens when you get information from a fairly unknown individual who totally seems to know their shit about something, but then you finally figure out they were just excellent bullshit artists.

This kind of thing has another corollary, what happens in the world of science, and what I learned in biology 20 years ago is no longer the right view of nature. But thats just progress.

So the anarchist cook book is a fraud? Damn..

 

[Homegrow3r]

There's no reason that you can't build indoor gardens that "won't look out of place in the modern household" read stealthy, Tomatoes stink to high heaven, so no reason you can't discuss the advantages of a carbon scrubber ventilation system so the house won't smell of tomatoes or the like.
Just do not entertain discussion about illegal usage of the cabinet, I'd even suggest that people that try to lead you down that path are told in no uncertain terms that growing marijuana is illegal and you won't even get drawn into a conversation where someone is inferring that cannabis would be grown in it.
I recently saw a case thrown out in the UK where a headshop employee had discussed growing weed with an undercover, but he was done for 400g of dried bud at home.
They got him, but not on the conspiracy charge, so safer not to go there and turn away people who won't take the hint, cos they could be LEO trying to entrap.

 

[79towncar]

Yea i really think this would constitute as a conspiracy charge. But only if some-1 could testify that you knew before hand that your cabinets would be used for an illegal purpose. A great example of this is the current WHIZZANATOR case.. You know, that fake penis that is filled with urine to beat drug tests. This guy had no hope b/c there is no practical legal purpose for that device except to commit a false urine to probation or an employer, which actually is kind of fraud. Talking about growing pot, buying books about growing pot, in itself is not illegal as some1 said b4. It is only when you put your words to action that it becomes illegal. Even if you sold your "cabinets" under the right pretense, "they are for tomatoes" and some people were actually using them for growing pot if if Uncle Sam was really trying to nail you they might be able to put together an aiding abetting but i doubt it would stick. If they really want to get you they will. Just ask Tommy Chong.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08289/919969-85.stm <---That is the whizzanator link. Check out that news report. The man was forced to plead guilty to Conspiracy to defraud the government. Even if this guy held up that his devices were only ment to help some-1 beat an employer drug test and not to defraud the government, he still would be screwed. because some-1 did actually use this to defraud the government. There are sooo many companies selling things to beat drugtests so why is he getting martyed? The message is this, They wanted him! And they got him! No-1 can take on the government head on. That conspiracy charge u cannot get around. Even tho this man made these devices to defraud an employer, they still can be used to defraud the government plain and simple. If making cabnets i would heavily market to regular gardners! just regular places. If they are going to be used for something else then so-be-it. This guy had adds in High Times! That just screams conspiracy. I hope i answered some of ur questions an didn't get that much off topic haha. Take it easy..

 

[yamaha_1fan]

I think books about pot are no different than books discussing other crime, its just reference material.

But when you build a cab and tell people how to grow weed in it, then you are helping them to commit the crime, not just talking about it.

 

[79towncar]

Yea yamaha thats basically what i said also. Talk is only talk, but your actions is what gets u pinched. What i am wondering is if some-1 uses your product to commit a crime are you now held liable? Kind of like aiding and abbeting? But if this was true i'm sure Smith & Wesson would be in court everyday. I'm curious to know how that works. But one thing i can pretty much gaurentee is, if you are marketing a product to be used illegally then you have trouble. Thats why i said if you have a grow cabinet to sell don't put adds in High Times. Instead put some adds in Home and Garden haha. Then i think ur chances of sucess are greater.

 

[Hal]

Thanks for joining in on the discussion everyone

Yeah, what I am into exploring here is the grey areas, the parts of the legal situation that aren't as well defined.

For instance, 79towncar mentions advertising in High Times as being obvious conspiracy. I agree. If I was going to market such a cabinet, I wouldn't advertise in HT.

But...here comes a grey area, say I am advertising this cabinet as being used to grow tomatoes...and when I speak with prospective customers, I never reference growing pot, I DO reference growing tomatoes, but all my advice that I give applies to the growing of pot.

I'm really not sure how different that advice would be from growing tomatoes, but for the sake of argument, lets say it is quite different, obviously different. For instance, I might want to mention growing 12/12 from seed, also mention growing from clones as well, growing methods that would work well with their new cabinets in keeping the size of their plants minimized to fit the enclosed spaces. Would LEO be able to charge me with disseminating advice on how to grow pot if they were able to show the advice I gave, even though I never mentioned marijuana and clearly always referred to tomatoes when advising, was advice that would be more sensibly be given on growing marijuana?

These are the grey areas I'm talking about. Because I feel it would be incredibly helpful to provide guidance to customers who are complete newbs and who might frequently feel a bit overwhelmed at the thought of growing pot. Growing in cabinets is micro-growing, and is very different, and therefore foreign, from tossing seeds into an outdoor garden and letting mother nature do her thing.

 

[Homegrow3r]

The advice for tomatoes is practically identical to growing buds, the problem is where you allow an inference to be made and run with it.
You must put your foot down anytime that someone would mention talking about illegal stuff.
Put the phone down on them or stop mid conversation. You can't be drawn into the inference or the conspiracy and the safest way to do that is to step away from any inference very quickly and cut off contact with the prospect, if you want to be sure that is.

If you made it obvious by talking about tomatoes with a nod and a wink, I'm sure that conspiracy would be brought up.
Like if someone mentioned cannabis and you said hold on that's not what this is for, to continue then talking about tomatoes would put you in the area of conspiracy again as you would have agreed on the code of tomatoes, defo a grey area.
Are you US side or EU?
Your spelling of grey suggests EU?
It'd make a huge difference is why I ask.

 

[Homegrow3r]

No reason you can't operate in the same zone as grow shops, it's legal, same market place, just don't get caught in some sucker conspiracy charge cos you're giving too many nods and winks......

Ask a grow shop owner how they deal with the same issue.

 

[xOOx]

good questions!

but your answer seems to be.. if it grows tomatoes, it grows weed too, lol.

..and if your havin' any problem representing what your product is really intended to be used for by your customer base..then you can hire someone that looks like cheech to stand next to it holding a tomato.

kinda like those algoflash ads..whatever happened to that guy? anyone ever use algoflash, lol. it sure grows huge tomatoes and begonias..

xoox

 

[Hal]

Hey Homegrow...

No, I'm in the US. I'm generally a good speller, but there's a few words that always get me, grey/gray being one of 'em

Also, I've been polishing up that last post with some minor edits since you guys posted, no major changes, but for some reason it isn't showing up as being edited, just thought you should know.

 

[79towncar]

Yea i agree with homegrow. As long as u are firm and never ever say anything about growing anything illegal, i think there wouldnt be enought evidence or conspiracy or fraud. Theres sooo many hydro stores that operate this way. All those nutrients.. nobody uses them for tomatoes haha. Take it easy

 

[Hal]

Some additional background for my questions...

I envision this business to be a local one, a specialty cabinet shop that would provide individualized custom cabinets to fit in particular locations in particular homes. These cabinets would be customized to fit the parameters of the client, for instance dimensions, total cubic feet, etc.

There could be a few cabinets that were designed to be sold nationally, with set dimensions and such, but these would find significant competition with similar grow cabs already on the market. I am trying to find a niche that would involve much less competition, hence the custom market.

Also, one thing I have been wondering about....how feasible would it be to hire a private investigator to look into the backgrounds of any clients that pay an extra fee to get more specific advice on growing in their new cabinet? If I was able to hire a PI for a reasonable fee per background check, I could pass this fee on to the client (disguised, of course), along with an hourly fee for my time involved.

Anyone have knowledge what a background check would cost per individual(s)? Anyone know if this background check would be effective in rooting out LEO from disguising themselves as potential customers?

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far

 

[Homegrow3r]

Hey Homegrow...

No, I'm in the US. I'm generally a good speller, but there's a few words that always get me, grey/gray being one of 'em

Also, I've been polishing up that last post with some minor edits since you guys posted, no major changes, but for some reason it isn't showing up as being edited, just thought you should know.

When you make a change within a certain time of the original post it doesn't show as an edit.

Hey no worries, I prefer grey anyway

Way I look at it, you have to be really careful, every potential customer is a potential narc, but unlike being a dealer you have your ass out there on public display, be super careful.

 

[Homegrow3r]

Some additional background for my questions...

I envision this business to be a local one, a specialty cabinet shop that would provide individualized custom cabinets to fit in particular locations in particular homes. These cabinets would be customized to fit the parameters of the client, for instance dimensions, total cubic feet, etc.

There could be a few cabinets that were designed to be sold nationally, with set dimensions and such, but these would find significant competition with similar grow cabs already on the market. I am trying to find a niche that would involve much less competition, hence the custom market.

Also, one thing I have been wondering about....how feasible would it be to hire a private investigator to look into the backgrounds of any clients that pay an extra fee to get more specific advice on growing in their new cabinet? If I was able to hire a PI for a reasonable fee per background check, I could pass this fee on to the client (disguised, of course), along with an hourly fee for my time involved.

Anyone have knowledge what a background check would cost per individual(s)? Anyone know if this background check would be effective in rooting out LEO from disguising themselves as potential customers?

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far

It's not something I'd get into, background checking on cops is gonna get you burned really quick, it'll bring you more attention than you need.

You can give all the advice that is needed once you stick to a clean line, always.
If you're thinking of doing custom installs, I think that 1/People will be worried about their own security as you'll be going to the locations.2/A lot of those people will already build their own cabs.

 

[CantBe2High]

Probably wouldn't work

Probably wouldn't work

Legally, lots of good advice.

As a business idea. I don't think so. Now, I have several ideas for a very stealthy setup in my home. What I built myself is OK, but I am no good at DIY.

I've thought about hiring people to put in wiring, venting, etc. in certain areas to make things better, but I am worried about the person doing the work. I would be very reluctant to hire somebody to install a custom grow cab in my house. Not even so much that you might be a Narc, but you might be a stoner that in some act of weedless desperation would break into my garden.

I like the notion, but I think the market would be small, finding discrete customers tough, and convincing people you are no narc, totally discrete, destroy all records and forget all addresses would be tough.

I suppose it could work OK in a state with medical mj though. Not as much need for absolute stealth, but medical is just a cause of defense usually, not a guarantee, so discretion is wise even in these cases.

Not wanting to discourage you, but I trust NOBODY to know about my hobby. I have to trust my wife, but that is it. And even then, now that means I could never leave her or cheat on her Not that I would, she is a sweetheart. Not too keen on my hobby but tolerant more or less for now.