males

[Lammy]

Mine was full on male till it started growing late pistils around 2-3 weeks before end of natural flowering cycle. His prefloweres were male's and it had no calyxes growing until it started growing late-pistils.

That was about my experience. But I did not leave mine in a controlled environment. I moved it out onto my enclosed porch near a window and under a light that I used randomly. I was surprised it lived as long as it did. Sometimes I just can't bring myself to kill them

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Google works just as good for you as it does for me so get to work.
Your points 2 & 3 have been done for decades already. It's obvious your outa the loop & need to use google some more.
#1 hasn't been done, to my knowledge, & shows you didn't read/comprehend my first post in this thread.

Ha! I ask for peer reviewed science, and you tell me to google! Well, here are a few results for you:

http://cannabisgenomics.org/research/

"Genetic maps -the arrangement of genes and their particular positions into chromosomes- provide indispensable information about the location of and distances between genes, which then allows for informed breeding decisions that can be used to rapidly combine the desired traits of interest into a single strain. This project will sequence two divergent lines, one C. sativa and one C. indica, as well as 96 to 142 hybrids of those lines, to make a very high quality genetic map. This will place the existing, highly fragmented genome assemblies onto chromosomes, and correct any large errors from the genome assemblies themselves. We will also associate important phenotypes –the physical observable characteristics- with chromosomal regions, to help identify how the major genetic differences between the parents lead to variation in secondary compound production, growth rate and architectural differences. This is called QTL mapping, and will tell us which chromosomal regions contain genes with substantial effects on each of the traits we measure, enabling more efficient breeding, using marker-assisted selection in future and ongoing crosses."

So, in case you need translating, they mapped the gene sequence for SOME strains (ie species, hybrids of either sativa or indica), but giving the diversity of the genome and number of hybrids, it is VERY DIFFICULT to get a complete picture. Also, knowing the arrangement of genes, does not mean that you understand how those genes work when combined in different ways (ie breeding). And, the only way to test and discover is by VERY EXTENSIVE scientific field trials, where known markers and sequences in a hybrid are combined with other known hybrids, and there offspring studied and genetically analyzed.

To claim that this is settled science is a bad fucking joke. They are doing ridiculously cool stuff with lab and genetic testing, but it is probably a decade or more away from a real understanding of cannabis. The main hurdle for scientific testing has been its schedule 1 status that prevents trained scientists from doing the kind of field testing required.

All that being said from a scientific stand point, I personally feel that this testing craze, and the labs that do it, are playing right into the corporate hands of Monsanto and their ilk, who are just dying to patent endless bullshit, including GMOs that could corrupt the gene pool.

I am not trying to start a fight, but you stated that the only way to "know" if you had a male was genetic testing, and I simply stated that they are guessing (in a quite accurate but likely flawed way) too. I am sure that the sex testing is 90-95%+ accurate, but I would guess that flowering out males, with some torture testing along the way to watch for intersex traits, would be more than 95% accurate, but that takes works and time, and who the fuck wants to do that...

WFF

 

[Dr.King]

I am not trying to start a fight, but you stated that the only way to "know" if you had a male was genetic testing, and I simply stated that they are guessing (in a quite accurate but likely flawed way) too. I am sure that the sex testing is 90-95%+ accurate, but I would guess that flowering out males, with some torture testing along the way to watch for intersex traits, would be more than 95% accurate, but that takes works and time, and who the fuck wants to do that...

WFF

Their called breeders for a reason man. Let's just all chill out and relax. Of course the science isn't 100% but even science is never 100%. Scientist do multiple testings before they put out any papers or crediting their work much like a breeder does with seeds. The seeds tell how well their work is credited. In this case we are talking about Ace seeds. Their genetics are proved to be solid why is that? Dubi and the crew spend countless hours breeding and cross breeding plants in after growing tons out to find their favorite elites then produce multiple generations of it to produce even better results. Ace even goes all out testing everything about every plants and post it here on the forums for us to see. That seems like a scientist to me.

 

[The Hatter]

Interesting read, but to answer the original question:

Yes, a plant that presents initially as male in flower can then sprout a bunch of female flowers as time goes by. I had this happen with a Zammy "male" I was excited about collecting pollen from.

In my limited experience plants that "hermie" in this manner are much more likely to pass on intersex traits to their offspring than female plants that throw a couple of nanners in very late flower or due to stress.

 

[WaterFarmFan]

Their called breeders for a reason man. Let's just all chill out and relax. Of course the science isn't 100% but even science is never 100%. Scientist do multiple testings before they put out any papers or crediting their work much like a breeder does with seeds. The seeds tell how well their work is credited. In this case we are talking about Ace seeds. Their genetics are proved to be solid why is that? Dubi and the crew spend countless hours breeding and cross breeding plants in after growing tons out to find their favorite elites then produce multiple generations of it to produce even better results. Ace even goes all out testing everything about every plants and post it here on the forums for us to see. That seems like a scientist to me.

Hey Doc! Agree 1000% on breeders like Dubi being scientists! I was talking about using lab results as crutch for taking shortcuts and not doing the leg work required. It is similar to the red-hot IG guys that are just reversing and dusting elite clones, making up crazy names and selling like hotcakes. Lots of fire but minimal respect for the process. Of course no science is 100%, but there is a difference between theory and law. Labs doing terp and thc/cbd analysis are very legit because they use technologies from other industries, but the genetic testing side is a different story. Again, they are likey producing accurate results, but their models are built on a incomplete and not well understood data set, and that by default should make one question the results with a healthy skepticism.

There is no one better to do field testing than elite breeders, as this is what they have been doing for decades, but they must rigorously apply the scientific method (and publicly post results for review) while using state of the art genetic analysis tools on site and as an integral part of their long-term breeding process. Sometimes things that are good for the community are not good for business, and vice-versa, and thus commercial breeders don't quite have the objectivity of pure research scientists.

Back to the topic at hand, and my interest in posting in this thread, is that i have 3x Zamaldelica males and 3x Panama males that I will be flowering out in a few months. I will be doing a run of 12-15 different males in total, and I while I have flowered males and made seeds in the past, this is the first time that I dedicating my entire space to collect pollen. I will have far more relevant first hand info about male intersex after that.

WFF

 

[Dr.King]

Hey Doc! Agree 1000% on breeders like Dubi being scientists! I was talking about using lab results as crutch for taking shortcuts and not doing the leg work required. It is similar to the red-hot IG guys that are just reversing and dusting elite clones, making up crazy names and selling like hotcakes. Lots of fire but minimal respect for the process. Of course no science is 100%, but there is a difference between theory and law. Labs doing terp and thc/cbd analysis are very legit because they use technologies from other industries, but the genetic testing side is a different story. Again, they are likey producing accurate results, but their models are built on a incomplete and not well understood data set, and that by default should make one question the results with a healthy skepticism.

There is no one better to do field testing than elite breeders, as this is what they have been doing for decades, but they must rigorously apply the scientific method (and publicly post results for review) while using state of the art genetic analysis tools on site and as an integral part of their long-term breeding process. Sometimes things that are good for the community are not good for business, and vice-versa, and thus commercial breeders don't quite have the objectivity of pure research scientists.

Back to the topic at hand, and my interest in posting in this thread, is that i have 3x Zamaldelica males and 3x Panama males that I will be flowering out in a few months. I will be doing a run of 12-15 different males in total, and I while I have flowered males and made seeds in the past, this is the first time that I dedicating my entire space to collect pollen. I will have far more relevant first hand info about male intersex after that.

WFF

Cool, thanks for clearing that up. I figured I was misunderstanding what you guys where talking about. It's not the first nor will it be the last, . Great information for people to read up on none the less.

 

[BAKED_BEANZ]

.

 

[Dr.King]

I do have a question about male plants myself if anyone can help. Is there a difference in using a fully flowered male vs male pollen to pollinate another plant? I would think a fully flowered male only shows you more about its traits but then again I'm wrong all the time. Thanks to all .

 

[MJPassion]

So basically you responded to me like that just to tell me that a male with herme traits is considered an intersex female by your definition?
Thanks a lot for the reply buddy.

If you dont like my explinations of the way I understand things...

Go pick up a fucking book & get off these forums.

 

[dubi]

hy guys and dubi, i have two neville haze males, one of them is showing few little balls with hair, can male shows hermy traits?? i have three selected females and i like to do few beans , first idea was to make different pollination with the two males ,in two mini boxes with same mothers , two clones of each mother and a male for box. i don't know after see that strange trait in one male if is better use only one , what you think guys?

Hi akirabull,

Yes of course, males can be hermie too, the same you can find hermie females (showing male and female flowers in the same plant, at different degree, depending on the level of hermaphroditism).

I would recommend you to discard any hermie parental plant for breeding unless there's no other choice (for example when you are trying to reproduce a landrace with hermie tendencies with very small populations and there's no other way to reproduce her in pure form).

There are very good tips for male selection in this thread, although the final proof it's always in the testing of the offspring.

Best wishes for your breeding projects!

 

[BAKED_BEANZ]

If you dont like my explinations of the way I understand things...

Go pick up a fucking book & get off these forums.

he's running to his safe place now , lol

i deleted my comment earlier , to save humanity

 

[WaterFarmFan]

I do have a question about male plants myself if anyone can help. Is there a difference in using a fully flowered male vs male pollen to pollinate another plant? I would think a fully flowered male only shows you more about its traits but then again I'm wrong all the time. Thanks to all .

From what I read, it is best to collect pollen when the first pollen sacs start to open. This is to get the freshest pollen because it will become inert after a week or so, and as the plant continues to flower, old pollen gets mixed with new. My plan is collect (place in small paper pouches, label, dry in fridge with desiccant and then store in freezer) pollen a few times for each plant during the first week, and then I will continue to let them flower to observe resin production and other traits as well as check for intersex. I will then select the males to use with my crosses and simply discard the pollen in freezer for the non-keepers, and then it is bean city!!!

To answer your question, I do not think there is any difference from pollen taken at the beginning or end of its life cycle. If you are doing open pollination, quality is the same from beginning to end. That is my understanding anyway.

WFF

 

[akirabull]

Hi akirabull,

Yes of course, males can be hermie too, the same you can find hermie females (showing male and female flowers in the same plant, at different degree, depending on the level of hermaphroditism).

I would recommend you to discard any hermie parental plant for breeding unless there's no other choice (for example when you are trying to reproduce a landrace with hermie tendencies with very small populations and there's no other way to reproduce her in pure form).

There are very good tips for male selection in this thread, although the final proof it's always in the testing of the offspring.

Best wishes for your breeding projects!

thanks Master, that is exactly what i want to know.

 

[BAKED_BEANZ]

From what I read, it is best to collect pollen when the first pollen sacs start to open. This is to get the freshest pollen because it will become inert after a week or so, and as the plant continues to flower, old pollen gets mixed with new. My plan is collect (place in small paper pouches, label, dry in fridge with desiccant and then store in freezer) pollen a few times for each plant during the first week, and then I will continue to let them flower to observe resin production and other traits as well as check for intersex. I will then select the males to use with my crosses and simply discard the pollen in freezer for the non-keepers, and then it is bean city!!!

To answer your question, I do not think there is any difference from pollen taken at the beginning or end of its life cycle. If you are doing open pollination, quality is the same from beginning to end. That is my understanding anyway.

WFF

good post , and great way to select males also ....... would,nt work in real time though outdoors , the flowering cycles of the males and females would be off too much and your females too mature to finish the seed, more than likely .....
outdoor people keep that in mind , mind you outdoor seed making is a dyeing breed in itself now days .

great indoor process , since you can predict the females flowering schedule , my hats of to it .

males.... always got me fascinated , thing with males is ........ which one is the right one ? theres no real way of knowing till you grow out the offspring of several males on the same female to determine , which actually gave you the desired result you were after . would you be surprised if you did that that and the male you discounted the most actually produced the best offspring and the stud you thought you had was just pimp looking

we are all guilty of using one male that looks the best , but theres a bigger picture if you have the time and space . not to mention would be interesting the actual difference between offspring ........ i,ll try one day

@waterfarmfan , its great process mate , and if i was indoors i,d be following it !

 

[MJPassion]

Found this for yall that can't handle looking around a lil...

What seems like an easy question to answer is complicated by growers who don't understand the difference of gender vs sexual expression.

Dioecious varieties have staminate and pistillate individual, said another way males and females.

Gender is set in stone at fertilization, gold star for amanda88. Rather, the gender is set in the chromosomes.

Males are identified by the presence of a Y chromosome, ie XY plants.

Females, on the other hand lack a Y chromosome, or are XX genetically at the sex chromosome (pair #10). Cannabis has 10 pairs of chromosomes, one of each pair inherited from mom, one of each pair from dad.

It is the male that either deposits, via meiosis, the Y or X chromosome into the pollen grains. If it donates an X chromosome containing pollen grain to the ovule of the female, the resulting seed is male (XY). If the male donates an X containing pollen grain, the resulting seed is female (XX). Said again another way, if the male donates a Y to the seed, the resulting offspring is male. If the male donates his X chromosome to the seed, the resulting progeny is genetically female.

~

In monoeicious varieties, ie hemp varieties that are intersex, we see an interesting thing happen. When you genetically test the plants bearing staminate flowers for the presence of a Y chromosome, there is none present. You see these varieties are essentially a mix of females, and intersex plants (known incorrectly as hermaphrodites), but there is a lack of true males or XY plants. How can this be? These varieties are used for the production of nutritional hemp seed, so they must be shedding pollen and self-fertilizing the population. But no true male XY plants exist in the population?

What is happening is that these plants have a series of genes that allow the formation of staminate flowers on genetically female plants- what dope growers call herms (again, correctly referred to as intersex). The staminate flowers shed pollen, and the nearby females and even pollen shedding plants set seed on their pistillate flowers, and seeds are produced.

These genes make up what we call in genetics a QTL- or quantitative trait loci- which are essentially a series of genes or genetic factors, which taken together, all contribute to the level of intersexuality on a plant.

If a plant has only a low dose of the particular genes in a female plant, you might get a female that occasionally sprouts a staminate or male flower- either constitutively (ie, the plant sprouts male flowers throughout the flowering-cycle), or it may only sprout a staminate flower near the end of flowering. This is the sexual expression of staminate flowers on genetically female plants, and not to be confusd with true males.

At the other end of this spectrum, you might see a plant that has many of these genetic factors for producing staminate flowers on genetically female plants, to the point that a genetically female plant, may even produce more staminate (ie male) flowers that it does produce pistillate (female) ones. Again, this is an example of sexual expression of staminate flowers on a female gendered (XX) plant. It pretty easy for a grower to look at this plant and say "it's a male", especially considering many growers only look at the first few flowers to determine sex. Think about it, most growers see the first few male flowers at the base of a young plant from seed, decide it's a male, then kill it. However to call this plant a male, is incorrect; genetically it's a female plant that produced male flowers.

The true test of maleness is the presence of a Y chromosome, which can only be tested microscopically (very difficult and labour intensive in cannabis) or via genetic means, either PCR or DNA sequencing, which are now very easy and inexpensive tests.

There are a few labs now offering this test to the public. These tests are nothing new, and are essentially based on a 1995 PCR method of detecting Male Specific DNA in Cannabis (MADC- proundounced Mad C). MADC's are genetic sequences found only on the Y chromosomes of cannabis. If they exist in the plant, the Y chromosome is present, and the plant is genetically male by definition. Medicinal Genomics in Massachussets and Phylos Bioscience in Oregon, are the 2 companies at the forefront of repurposing this 20 year old technology.

The earliest you can detect the presence of the Y chromosome of a seedling is at the point that you can isolate the DNA. This is typically done by harvesting a hole-punch sized piece of leaf from the cotyledon (round, seed busting leaves) or even a little later by harvesting a hole-punch sized piece of leaf from the first true, serrated leaves. You can't use the seed shell of the seed because it is made from maternal tissue- yes the outside shell of your seeds is actually part of the mother plant. The embryo inside the seed is what contains half of the DNA from Mom, and half from Dad. The point is, when you can get a piece of the seedling growing from the seed without damaging the seedling, you can then detect not only the gender of the plant, but also a whole series of traits- from cannabinoid profile and quantities, to terpene profiles, stature, pathogen resistance or susceptibiity, etc. If these traits are then used to select plants, this is called Marker Assisted Selection, or MAS. This is how big agribusiness goes about developing new varietals because you can essentially make planned crosses and determine which plants suit your goals without ever having to grow them out and examine their phenotypes; you make selections based on genotype alone, and then select only these plants for further breeding while tossing out all of the plants that don't suit your ideal.

Gender is set in the chromsomes as I said before, but you can artificially manipulate the expression of these traits by applying hormones, or hormone inhibitors to the plants. Applying STS or silver thiosulfate to female plants induces male flower expression. This is how female seeds are made, a female plants is "reversed" to apply the colloquial use of the term, and then the pollen is used to fertilize another female, or a duplicate clonal copy of the female plants being "reversed". In this csae, although staminate flowers are formed and are able to make pollen, only genetically X chromosomes are present in the plant's genome and can be deposited into the pollen grains, meaning only XX plants can be created. Remember, you are mating (XX) x (XX), - ie no Y chromosome, no male gendered plants.

I hope that clears up some confusion on the topic.

-Chimera

 

[Lammy]

so when you first responded you didn't provide any information or add anything to the discussion whatsoever. also Chimera here is talking about hemp and I'm pretty sure Dubi did not sell me hemp seeds.

and realistically this doesn't change anything.but thanks for sharing the information

 

[Chimera]

so when you first responded you didn't provide any information or add anything to the discussion whatsoever. also Chimera here is talking about hemp and I'm pretty sure Dubi did not sell me hemp seeds.

and realistically this doesn't change anything.but thanks for sharing the information

Pssst... hemp is cannabis

Gender and sexual expression and the mechanisms responsible for such apply to both hemp and drug forms of the species. Gender and sexual expression and development didn't evolve the same mechanism twice, it happened before the varieties diverged through human selection.

EDIT- Excuse me dubi I did not see this was in your forum, please feel free to delete at will.

 

[Lammy]

I guess I misinterpreted your meaning when you refer to hemp in one sentence and dope growers in another. let me ask you though Chimera do you think that it's reasonable for everyday people to refer to a plant that presents completely as male or female as such or that we should always refer to them as an unknown sex until they are genetically tested?
it seems to me it's only practical to take things as they are

 

[dubi]

Welcome Chimera to our room

Feel free to post what you want if it's on topic or related to our genetics.

Hope to see you in Spannabis this year too!

 

[Monsanto Sam]

I know DJ Short said using male hermies is a good thing in his book claims it gives you more females. But like his acid test I take it with a grain of salt I should not need LSD to tell me if I like the high. Lol, I did sort of try the test on shrooms but I couldn't even begin to tell you what the weed high was like tripping let alone which has the best high. Unfortunately I can't get LSD well I guess I could from the darknet just need to buy a testing kit so I'm not taking RC crap though LSD on the streets is more likely to be that RC crap.

But who knows if the male hermie trait will pass to females I just wouldn't try it myself unless there was something truly special about the male.