Luigi Mangione

[Captain Red Eye]

Heh heh... When reality copies the literature of the stories-fables of Augusto Monterroso, and persists in dismantling the lies of ultra-neoliberal capitalism aka "pseudo Anarcho"-Capitalism...

View attachment 19127422

Grafton:​

The "libertarian" experiment in a small town in the United States that ended in a great fiasco :​

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,Libertarians' attempts to test their ideas in a small town ended in a run-in with bears.
 Article information :

• Author,Juan Francisco Alonso
• Author's title,BBC News World
• August 29, 2023

“Everything in excess is bad.” :

This oft-quoted maxim seems to apply not only to issues related to medicine, but also to freedom.
And proof of this is Grafton, a small town in the northeastern United States, which at the beginning of the century was the scene of an unprecedented political experiment :
A group of libertarians settled there and put their ideas into practice, cutting regulations and taxes in order to prove that government intervention is oppressive and produces poverty, while if society is left to its own devices it flourishes and is capable of self-regulation.

However, within a few years, the town in the state of New Hampshire, bordering Canada, became known for the drastic deterioration of its public services, the increase in criminal violence; and above all for a series of unusual attacks by black bears against some of its residents.

Image source,Courtesy of Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling
Photo caption,The Grafton case eventually caught the attention of journalist Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling, who wrote a book about it.

A unique experiment :​

“In 2004, hundreds of people moved to Grafton to found what they called the Free Town Project and demonstrate the feasibility of libertarianism by creating a utopian community,” American journalist Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling explained to BBC Mundo. In 2020, he wrote the book A Libertarian Walks into a Bear , in which he recounted what happened in the small town.
Libertarianism is a political-philosophical movement that places “individual freedom as the supreme political value” and considers that every person has the right to live his or her life and do with his or her body and property whatever he or she considers appropriate, as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others to do the same, explained Venezuelan political scientist Luis Salamanca.
“For classical liberalism, the State must be minimal; that is, it accepts that the State exists, but only as a watchdog of productive activity and a minimal regulator. However, for anarcho-capitalists, who are the purest and most radical libertarians, this is oppression. For anarcho- capitalists, the State is the enemy and must be liquidated ,” added the former director of the Institute of Political Studies of the Central University of Venezuela (UCV).
Libertarianism has had a strong hold in the United States since its founding. "The best government is that which governs least ," said Thomas Jefferson, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and third president of that country, recalled the professor of Political Theory and American History Eric-Clifford Graf.
The expert also highlighted that there have been - and are - sectors and individuals within the Republican Party who defend these ideas.

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,Grafton, unlike other neighboring towns, began to have problems with garbage collection, street repairs and street lighting.

But why Grafton? “ Libertarians looked at dozens of towns in New Hampshire before settling on Grafton , but it was appealing for several reasons: It was home to a libertarian named John Babiarz, who was running for governor. It also had a small population, about 1,000 people, which meant that a relatively small number of libertarian voters could wield an outsize influence when it came to passing municipal ordinances and taxes,” the journalist listed.
“And finally, Grafton had a deep history of rebellion against authority . In the late 18th century, it voted to secede from the newly formed United States over tax issues, and many of its residents were fiscally disobedient (not paying taxes),” he concluded.
Hongoltz-Hetling, in her book, claimed that within months some 200 libertarians, most of whom had met online, had moved to the town to launch their experiment.
The new residents were mostly white, single men who supported gun ownership .
However, from an economic point of view, the profile of the newcomers was more varied: some had a lot of money and others were poor and had nothing to tie them to their places of origin.
The latter explains why the number of people living in mobile homes or tents in the forests surrounding the town has increased significantly.

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,Libertarians' refusal to use trash bins against bears and some of their decision to feed them attracted the animals to residential areas.

A not so silent invasion :​

The new “Graftonians” soon began to make themselves felt. “They were very active and involved in the local political process, which allowed them to impose many of their ideas on the community,” Hongoltz-Hetling said.
And though they failed in their attempts to remove the town from the School District, the authority in charge of overseeing schools, or to declare the town a “United Nations-free zone,” they did convince residents to cut the already small municipal budget , which was just US$1.3 million, by 30% .
However, the promise that the cuts would result in lower taxes and more money in the pockets of the population did not come to pass.
For example, in Canaan, a neighboring town, residents paid only 70 cents more in taxes on average than those in Grafton and had paved and lighted streets and roads.
By 2011, Grafton's roads were riddled with potholes, street lighting and garbage collection services had all but disappeared, the public library had to reduce its hours to just three hours a day, and police surveillance was reduced because the police only had the resources to pay one full-time officer (the chief commissioner).
Reduced patrols, coupled with the arrival of more armed residents convinced they had the right to do whatever they wanted, explain why the town recorded its first two murders in recent times in the past decade and a 12% rise in the number of violent crimes, according to regional statistics.

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,Libertarianism is deeply rooted in the US and was advocated by some of its founding fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson.

Like something out of a bad comedy :​

But as if worse roads and more crime weren't enough, Grafton residents had to deal with a problem not seen in a century: a wave of bear attacks .
It was precisely the attacks by these animals that made Hongoltz-Hetling focus her attention on the town, where she found that the mix of deregulation, tax cuts and libertarian ideas resulted in a dangerous cocktail.
“Many of the libertarians living in the woods did not follow recommendations about waste disposal, which created an easy food source for the bears. Secondly, some of the libertarians began feeding the bears, just as others feed birds or squirrels in their backyards , which attracted the animals to residential areas,” he said.
“And third, the city refused to call on regional authorities to consider killing or relocating the troublesome beasts; instead, individuals tried to deter them, in ways that were ineffective (using fireworks). Over time, the bears became bolder and more interested in humans as a food source and even stopped hibernating,” he said.

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,Bears began roaming the streets of Grafton and attacked two residents in 2012, an occurrence not seen in a century.

By 2016 the experiment had foundered and many of the libertarians who had settled in Grafton had left.
However, little has been done to repair the damage , Hongoltz-Hetling said.
“The town budget has not grown to make up for the lost years and municipal services remain poor compared to those in other neighbouring towns. However, the atmosphere is calmer than before, and there have been no more bear attacks, so perhaps that is a victory,” the journalist said.
But how could a group of newcomers virtually control a town and dismantle it without anyone taking action? “ The libertarians acted within the rule of law , so there was no reason for state or federal authorities to intervene,” he replied.
" The Grafton fiasco was partly the result of a fair democratic process , in which community-minded residents did not organize as effectively as libertarians.
"For me, libertarians have moral, but not legal, responsibility for what happened to the people who were attacked by the bears," the journalist and author added.

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,The victory of economist Javier Milei, who presents himself as a libertarian, in the Argentine primaries has put this ideology at the forefront of the debate.

A theory in vogue :​

The victory of economist Javier Milei in Argentina's mandatory primary elections on August 13 has put libertarianism in the spotlight.
" I consider the state to be an enemy ; taxes are a burden on slavery," said the controversial candidate, who, according to polls, has the best chance of winning the presidential elections next October.
Milei has declared himself a “libertarian” and an “anarcho-capitalist” and has promised that, if he wins the elections, he will “blow up” the Central Bank, reduce the number of ministries and legalize the carrying of firearms.
However, what happened in Grafton raises more than reasonable doubts as to whether libertarianism can be successfully implemented .
"The experiment allowed us to see the benefits, but above all the problems that come with doing without the State," said political scientist Salamanca.
“ Garbage is the most pathetic example and shows that you cannot leave everything to the market . The market can regulate prices, but there are other aspects of human life that it does not cover and that is where the anarcho-capitalist model fails,” he said.

Image source,Getty Images
Photo caption,Despite Grafton's failure, libertarianism has support among a portion of the electorate and the Libertarian Party will once again participate in the 2024 US presidential election.

“In Grafton, freedom was prioritized over order, but total freedom leads to the loss of order, and where there is no order, force and the law of the strongest prevail,” said the expert.
Salamanca recalled that the history of humanity before the modern State was incredibly chaotic and violent.
"Anyone could invade your home, take your wife or kill you (…) The conclusion that this case draws is that freedom alone, without order, ends up being negative for itself and that the weakest end up being harmed," he said.
Professor Graf, for his part, admitted that libertarian ideals are inspiring and can be very attractive to electorates disenchanted with traditional politicians.
However, the expert warned that handing power over to the followers of this political movement "is to risk chaos and anarchy, which can return us to tyranny . "

Libertarios | Grafton: el experimento "anarco-capitalista" en un pueblo de Estados Unidos que terminó en un gran fiasco - BBC News Mundo

La reducción del presupuesto municipal y la derogación de un conjunto de normas provocó una notable desmejora en los servicios públicos, un aumento de la violencia y la llegada de unos agresivos osos.

www.bbc.com

Don't believe everything you read.

The picture in the article about the town of Grafton, isn't even the town of Grafton, NH. It's a different town, in the County of Grafton. Too funny.

I don't think the person that made the comments about Grafton, NH has any first hand information on what happened or didn't happen in Grafton, NH. and wrote a hit piece.

I actually know the former fire chief John B. and he ran the fire department for years without ANY salary. by his choice. That saved tax payers money.

I'm not going to bother to refute much of what was said in the article, but it has a distinct smell of bullshit for the purposes of furthering an agenda and not to report the truth. Not surprised.

Also, if any Libertarians did use the political system to get taxes lowered "democratically" does that mean you only like the results of democracy when it delivers what you like? That's pretty hypocritical.

 

[nepalnt21]

Getting in the right line, would be a good start for you.

View attachment 19127378

it's beginning to look a lot like trol-ling

 

[Eltitoguay]

(...) The first libertarians arrived in Grafton in February 2004.
They were in a van and were four: Tim Condon, a 55-year-old lawyer with thirty years of libertarian political activism; Larry Pendarvis, 61, a regular on extremist internet forums who had been prosecuted for consuming child pornography; Tony Lekas, a software engineer who dreamed of becoming a firearms instructor; and Bob Hull, 58, who in his difficult adolescence when he suffered bullying had incredibly won the lottery and would be one of the largest financial contributors to the project.

They had been through 28 towns before. But Grafton, just over the Canadian border, was different. The town had a long history of tax evasion and anti-authoritarianism: in the late 18th century, they had voted to secede from the United States to join what was then the Independent Republic of Vermont… because it promised not to tax them. In addition, the state of New Hampshire has a tradition of valuing individual freedoms, expressed in its official slogan “live free or die,” and in the fact that it is the only province where it is not mandatory to wear seat belts, where there is no sales tax and – very importantly for the settlers – there is no zoning regulation, which allowed the construction of any type of construction, such as tents or makeshift cabins.

There was another reason for the Free Town Project in Grafton. It was home to John Babiarz, a libertarian who had run for governor several times before and who, by the standards of this movement, had not done so badly: in 2002, with the slogan “the government is not the solution, it is the problem” – a phrase that Milei could well say – he had won 3% of the votes in that election, which remains a record for libertarians. It was Babiarz, in fact, who welcomed the four original members of the van to the town. Later, he would regret this decision when, as head of the town’s volunteer firefighters, he saw the limits between theory and practice: he wanted to put out a fire in a wooded area, but the libertarians who had started it accused him of being a “statist” and of interfering with their freedom.

The forces of the land. The libertarians' idea was clear: to take over a town and influence its policies until they reached a non-existent State that would not burden them with taxes and that would then become a beacon for all the libertarians of the world.

Using forums and the networks, Babiarz and the other four began inviting people like them from all over the country, with no requirements: everyone was welcome. “This idea of we’ll welcome everyone as long as they sign up to this political agenda, leads to a lot of tolerance for things that would normally be dismissed: tolerance for racism, tolerance for intolerance. And what actually happened was they brought together the most extreme libertarians from each community and brought them all to the same place. So they selected a very particular group of people with very unbalanced views, and they convinced them that those views should not only be okay for them, but should be okay for everyone else in Grafton,” says Hongoltz-Hetling.

The libertarians came out swinging. In June 2004, they made their first show of force at the annual town meeting. By then, Hull had bought several plots of land and installed dozens of sympathisers of the cause there - most of whom were men, like the bulk of Milei's hard core followers.

The changes would be noticed quickly, with support that would prove vital: many original residents of the town who welcomed the fight to pay less taxes. The libertarians managed to cut Grafton's million-dollar budget by 30%, an adjustment that was aggravated by the 20% growth of the population, defunded the county's senior citizens council, and closed the urban planning board. This is just about what they achieved: they also tried to close the Public Library and replace the educational system with the voucher system, as Milei proposes. "They joined with thrifty allies to loudly defy every rule and every tax dollar. One by one, expenses were stripped from the municipal budget and pieces of services were torn away as if they were meat," says the author.

The consequences were not long in coming :

The city streets fell into a state of disrepair. “Untended cracks in the asphalt first became fissures and then turned into grass-covered potholes,” Hongoltz-Hetling writes in her book. Two small bridges were on the verge of collapse. Grafton’s municipal offices went from a state of mere ruin to downright decrepitude: they had to cut off the hot water supply – in an area where the average winter temperature is minus 3 degrees – and employees ended up washing their hands in ice-cold water.

The “private” people who moved in brought about other developments. The number of annual sex offender registrations rose from eight in 2006 to twenty-two in 2010. In 2006, three men were arrested in connection with a methamphetamine production lab in the town, and in 2011 a double homicide occurred, the first murders Grafton can remember. One of the dead was shot 16 times. In 2013, police killed another man after an armed robbery. Conflict was increasing in the town, probably related to the appearance of guns everywhere.

By 2010, the number of civil disputes police responded to was double that of 2001, before the libertarians came in, and the number of disputes between neighbors was nearly quadruple. This was while the police were losing funding every year and had only one patrol car so old it often wouldn't start. The fire department, compared to the nearest town, was nearly 100 percent underfunded.

The funny thing is that, despite all the cuts, taxes did not go down that much. Instead, lawsuits against the town increased, between libertarians who filed injunctions and the neighbors who wanted to defend themselves against them: in 2004, Grafton's legal expenses were 275 dollars, but in 2011 they were almost ten thousand. Compared to Canaan, the neighboring town, the citizens of the libertarian town spent only 70 cents less per day on taxes.

And then there was the matter of the bears:
As the libertarians transformed city life by doing what they wanted, the nature around them changed, too. They ignored regulations on waste disposal, set up camps all over the forest, and refused to call state authorities every time they saw a bear—as protocol dictates. By 2018, the number of bears in Grafton had exceeded the expected numbers by more than 50%.

In 2012, the first bear attack occurred on a non-libertarian Grafton resident, causing her serious injuries. It was the first such incident in the province in more than 150 years. Two more bear attacks would occur in the following years.

The experiment was thus coming to an end. In 2016, Connell would die in a confusing episode: while he was in an open conflict with the authorities to avoid paying taxes on the Church he had bought, one night the building caught fire with him inside. The investigation to determine whether it was an accident, a suicide or a homicide is still ongoing. Whether or not this was part of God's plan is also unknown.

That year also saw the birth of what would end up being the ruin of this adventure. In the city of New Hampshire - with a population of one million - the "Free State Project" would appear, which, being on a larger scale, would end up taking with it the bulk of the libertarians of Grafton. To this day, this plan remains in its infancy.
Only the ruins remain of what was the first experiment of Milei's ideas applied in reality.

Grafton: el experimento libertario que terminó mal

En este pueblo de Estados Unidos se aplicaron a fondo las ideas de Milei. Pero salió mal: ocurrieron homicidios, delitos y terminaron siendo atacados por osos. Las similitudes con el Presidente argentino.

noticias.perfil.com

 

[Eltitoguay]

Grafton, New Hampshire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Free Town Project :​

In 2004, Grafton became the focus for Libertarians as part of the Free Town Project (a single-town version of the Free State Project). One of the goals was to advocate for legal changes.[13] Grafton's appeal as a favorable destination was due to its absence of zoning laws and a then-low property tax rate.[14][13] John Babiarz, a Grafton resident and prominent member of the Libertarian Party, encouraged libertarian people to move there.[15][16]

During this time, the town's population grew by about 200 people (about 20%); nearly all of the newcomers were men.[14] Project participants did not find themselves as welcome as they had hoped, but they voted in changes including a 30% reduction in the town's already small budget.[14] This resulted in eliminating funding to the county's senior-citizens council, town offices going unheated during the winter, poorly maintained roads filled with potholes, and the Grafton Police Department being reduced to one officer (the police chief), who said he was unable to answer calls for service as the town had no money to repair the one police vehicle left.[17] Other issues were inconsistent basic public services, such as trash collection.[15][14] The libertarian newcomers additionally increased the town's costs by filing lawsuits against it in attempts to set various legal precedents.[14]

Example of a bear-resistant trash container, with an American black bear climbing on top of it. Some libertarian newcomers to Grafton refused to buy bear-resistant containers.

The project has been associated with an increase in the number and aggressiveness of black bears in town, including entering homes, mauling people, and eating pets.[14] A single, definitive cause for the abnormal behavior of the bears has not been proven, but it may be due to libertarian residents who refuse to buy and use bear-resistant containers, who do not dispose of waste materials (such as feces) safely, or who deliberately put out food to attract the bears to their own yards, without caring how this affected other people.[14]

After a rash of lawsuits from Free Towners, an influx of sex offenders, an increase of crime, problems with bold local bears, and the first murders in the town's history, the Libertarian project ended in 2016.[13][14][18]

 

[Eltitoguay]

Je, je...

"- That's what happens when a hoax like Social pseudo-Darwinism, breaks its head against real Scientific Darwinism..."

 

[Captain Red Eye]

it's beginning to look a lot like trol-ling

Not trolling.

Preaching the gospel of non-aggression. There's a difference.

 

[nepalnt21]

then you stop with the violence against me, forcing me to live in a system of slavery by you yourself participating and holding up the prison.

 

[nepalnt21]

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Je, je...
View attachment 19127542
"- That's what happens when a hoax like Social pseudo-Darwinism, breaks its head against real Scientific Darwinism..."

Posting articles that are laden with factual errors as a "proof" are funny. I also know "hundreds" of libertarians didn't move there. It was under 100 people and not all of them were politically active.
I know most of them. some like any group of people, were principled and some were not.

I also have first-hand knowledge of much what occurred in that town politically and who was corrupt in that town. The author of your article repeated lies. Not surprised.

There was never local town or county garbage pickup BEFORE the Libertarians showed up. There were few paved roads BEFORE the Libertarians showed up. Libertarians didn't take anything away from anybody as your lying article suggests.

The police force wasn't reduced, it increased and the Police budget went up. I know the Libertarians that voluntarily cut the grass at the town ball field and surrounding the small municipal buildings to reduce the tax burden on EVERYONE, it even helped the whiny liberals that lived there. I don't remember seeing you there or your lying article writer.

You never answered why, if those naughty Libertarians used the available democratic process to "reduce taxes by 30%, why you would be against that?
I thought you guys had giant democracy boners and loved democracy?

Odd too, that even though a town warrant article passed by vote at a Grafton town deliberative session calling for a 10% reduction over 3 years passed, (that's where the supposed 30% came from...it was to occur over 3 years) but it was never implemented by the Selectmen.

What? Town Selectmen going against the "democratic will of the people." So, even when Libertarians held their noses and used the "democratic political process" and won, the Town overlords refused to implement it.

Again, where was the democracy then?

It's really funny that you posted this article, when I personally know a shit load more about what really occurred than the author of the article.

Also, that's a Grizzly bear, there are only black bears in the town of Grafton, NH.

You also never mentioned any description of what your political or philosophical labels are?
Are you "for" and "against" democracy, depending on the outcome of the vote? I think you might be.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

then you stop with the violence against me, forcing me to live in a system of slavery by you yourself participating and holding up the prison.

Please don't be asinine. I'm fine with you running your own life as long as you confine your actions to that, I can co-exist and reciprocate. I don't want to run your life, that's your job.

I'm not forcing you to do jack shit and I don't do anything to anyone unless it's in justifiable self-defense and before that happens, I take great pains to de-escalate even when somebody is being a jack ass.

 

[nepalnt21]

are funny

"is funny", just wanted to point that out, n0t to be a dick but for my own peace of mind.

the sentence is structured so that you aren't saying the articles are funny, but that the process is funny.

 

[nepalnt21]

Please don't be asinine. I'm fine with you running your own life as long as you confine your actions to that, I can co-exist and reciprocate. I don't want to run your life, that's your job.

I'm not forcing you to do jack shit and I don't do anything to anyone unless it's in justifiable self-defense and before that happens, I take great pains to de-escalate even when somebody is being a jack ass.

then where do you get off talking shit and suggesting we "state worshippers" are participating in or otherwise are providing some support for state violence?

 

[Eltitoguay]

(...) I actually know the former fire chief John B. and he ran the fire department for years without ANY salary. by his choice. That saved tax payers money. (...)

Je, je...

" ...in an open conflict with the authorities to avoid paying taxes on the Church he had bought, one night the building caught fire with him inside..."

Grafton: el experimento libertario que terminó mal

En este pueblo de Estados Unidos se aplicaron a fondo las ideas de Milei. Pero salió mal: ocurrieron homicidios, delitos y terminaron siendo atacados por osos. Las similitudes con el Presidente argentino.

noticias.perfil.com

"...They also talked about creating a volunteer fire department to compete with the city fire department, and also about forming a militia to provide protection for the neighbors. However, these ideas require organization and commitment, so none of them were really achievable..."

"...When there were fires, Grafton depended on other towns for assistance. Then the church caught fire, the one that one of the free-towners had bought. It was a sacred place for the Graftonites, many residents had gotten married there, others had used it for funerals. The owner of the building was inside when it happened... and he died..."

Utopía libertaria. Viaje al pueblo estadounidense donde se aplicó el experimento anarcocapitalista de la libertad “total”

Grafton está ubicado en New Hampshire, Estados Unidos; en 2004, alrededor de 200 militantes libertarios se mudaron allí, ante la desafiante reticencia de la población local

www.lanacion.com.ar

 

[Captain Red Eye]

"...They also talked about creating a volunteer fire department to compete with the city fire department,

You're swinging hard but missing. Too funny.

Grafton, NH isn't a city and never was. It's a very small rural town that had one small convenience store / gas station, which later closed down. partially because the owner couldn't afford the taxes. Surprised the article didn't blame that on Libertarians.

The town never had a "city" fire department.

The fire department there was and is a town fire department and was ALREADY voluntarily staffed by both non Libertarians and local Libertarians before the "hoard" of other Libertarians arrived.

They voted amongst themselves to elect their fire Chief and for years they voted for known Libertarian John B, to be their chief because he DIDN'T take or ask for a salary and put countless hours into voluntarily serving his neighbors.
As did the other volunteer fire fighters both Libertarians and non Libertarians.

"...When there were fires, Grafton depended on other towns for assistance.

That's what other local towns without any Libertarians involved in politics already do and still do.
It's known as "mutual assistance" and most towns and cities in New Hampshire have these arrangements for fire and police.

I also knew the Pastor of the Peaceful Assembly church that died in the fire very well. His mission was to advance peaceful human interactions. He wasn't perfect, none of us are, but I know what his motives were.

He bought the church building fair and square from the town who had "inherited" it from the previous Church who built a newer church. Anybody else could have bid on it just like the Pastor did. Speaking of town property bids in that town. There are a lot of rumors about certain Town officials engaging in "acquiring property" thru a rigged bid system. I'm not going to touch that, but I know of at least one instance for sure where that happened.

Keep going though. You're really convincing me.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

then where do you get off talking shit and suggesting we "state worshippers" are participating in or otherwise are providing some support for state violence?

This is now, that was then. I haven't made a "serious vote' for a Presidential election since 2008. I used to be a very small government advocate, you gonna shoot me now?

When you realize your well intentioned ideas contain bad elements you hadn't considered previously, the proper thing to do is reassess and change direction, not double down on your error.

You should consider that as well-intentioned advice..

 

[Microbeman]

What if there is no such thing as property and there is no such thing as money? What if the land owns us and if there is no such thing as money then why would someone who grows food be less valuable than a surgeon who performs surgery?

 

[Captain Red Eye]

What if there is no such thing as property and there is no such thing as money? What if the land owns us and if there is no such thing as money then why would someone who grows food be less valuable than a surgeon who performs surgery?

Thank you. I appreciate that you are asking relevant questions. I have pondered these things too.

I believe all human beings have a kind of "property right" in themselves, but not in others. Self-ownership.
Which is why I say if a person is disinterested in other's ideas, but otherwise peaceful they should be left alone. Pretty much fixed on that concept and not likely to change my mind.

As far as the extent of what could or should be "owned", that's a good topic too. I often preface my statements about property (physical property, possessions, homesteads etc. ) with the caveat, "justly acquired property" to differentiate it from unjustly acquired property. This might be a good topic for a thread.


As far as "money", yes, the system is set up to steer power to those with money. That's undeniable.

Somebody who grows food could be more or less valuable than a surgeon, depending on two things. If there is no imminent need for surgery, the food grower might be seen as more valuable.

If there is a pressing need for surgery, the surgeon might be more valuable. Value is subjective to the individual making the judgement and it's often based on circumstances. likes and dislikes. wants and needs.

 

[Microbeman]

Based upon that value, earlier we were discussing the poor people who would not be able to afford to send their children to a school requiring payment however if there is no such thing as money and value was only used at the time that the producer was producing and the need was needed then perhaps there would be no such thing as poor people.

I'm trying voice to text so the above may not be very clear as far as grammar goes.

 

[Captain Red Eye]

Based upon that value, earlier we were discussing the poor people who would not be able to afford to send their children to a school requiring payment however if there is no such thing as money and value was only used at the time that the producer was producing and the need was needed then perhaps there would be no such thing as poor people.

I'm trying voice to text so the above may not be very clear as far as grammar goes.

Even if there were no such thing as fiat money / forcibly controlled money, value systems approximating
"money" emerge.

In jail, one person might value the bag of greasy chips that comes with the jail lunch, more than his orange,
Another prisoner might value the orange more than his bag of chips.
A mutual trade where nobody is forced can then happen and both parties get what they want.

It's one way to get your vitamin c even when in jail.

I hope the voice text works out for you!

Just so you know, I'm in favor of homeless people homesteading so-called government open land.

 

[Eltitoguay]

(...)Libertarians(...)

View attachment 19127638

Libertarians? That bunch of useless illiterate people?

...Can you imagine these types of people managing anything more complex than the mechanism of a botijo?... Something like an airport network, or a hospital network, or anything that requires the collaboration of 2 or more people?

"Libertarian" Utopia.​

A trip to the American village where the anarcho-capitalist experiment of “total” freedom was implemented​

A picture of Grafton, the American town that was "invaded" by 200 libertarians in 2004.​

Grafton is located in New Hampshire, United States; in 2004, around 200 libertarian activists moved there, in the face of defiant reluctance from the local population.​

• November 3, 2023

Grafton was a paradise for lovers of outdoor activities.
A haven of serenity in the heart of the state of New Hampshire, in the northeastern United States. It had a thousand inhabitants and had never seen an act of extreme violence. Not a single murder. Its police station, the only one in the city, was guarded by a constable who occasionally patrolled the streets. And that seemed enough.

But everything changed in the summer of 2004. Exactly 200 idealists – mostly young, single men – stormed the city. They called themselves “libertarians” and “anarcho-capitalists” and claimed to be part of a movement called the “Free Town Project”. They had an ambitious plan: they wanted to transform Grafton into a paradise free of all state intervention, a place where rules had no place and freedom was practised in its fullest expression. One thing: no one had asked them to do it.

A typical postcard from Grafton, a town where peace reigned... until the arrival of the libertarians

One of the first signs you see upon arrival in Grafton

Journalist Matt Hongoltz Hetling, author of the book 'A libertarian walks into a bear', was an eyewitness to this story, which spanned more than 13 years. In its pages he relives the adventures of the “free-towners” from the day they arrived in Grafton... until the day they left. In an interview with LA NACIÓN, he recounts the events that marked this unique chronicle.

-When, and why, did the group of libertarians decide to found the Free Town Project?

-In the early 2000s, the libertarian community in the United States was quite “fractured.” It was an academic idea that was around, but few, if any, people were thinking of putting it into practice. In addition, there was not much room for such ideas and its adherents were scattered all over the country, without much contact with each other. This changed with the arrival of the Internet. Libertarians began to chat with each other. They created forums and got to know each other. Soon they began to discuss the idea of forming a community. There was one of them, an academic named Jason Sorens, who had written a paper in which he proposed that libertarians concentrate all their political power and “take over” an existing community. The romanticism of this idea captured everyone’s attention: it was a real hit.

-Why did you decide to do it in New Hampshire and why, in particular, in Grafton?

-They started discussing how and where they should do it. New Hampshire seemed tempting because it was already one of the freest states in the United States and had the lowest taxes. In fact, their motto is “Live Free or Die.” There is not even a seat belt requirement there. There are no building regulations either; you can build whatever house you want. They talked about this quite a bit, online. Until four of them went on a tour of the state looking for the best place. They looked at the towns, tested the water quality, looked at where they could settle… Grafton had two factors. One was that they could settle wherever they wanted, because there was a lot of land for sale. The other was that it was the home of John Babiarz, the Libertarian candidate for governor of New Hampshire. There were meetings between them and Babiarz, and he convinced them to go there.

-How many libertarians are we talking about?

-There was never an official record. But with their arrival, the town's population increased by 200 people. So there were around 200 of them. Even though they represented a smaller percentage of the total inhabitants, they were very focused on fulfilling their dream of turning Grafton into a libertarian paradise.

Grafton, New Hampshire

-How did they settle in the village? Where did they live?

-Some bought land and built their houses, others did not. A couple of them had quite a bit of money. One of them became the largest landowner in the village and allowed the other libertarians to sleep on his land. But there were a large number who chose to live in tents in the forests of the area. There were also some who settled in mobile homes and containers.

-What was the impact of the arrival of these “new visitors” on the existing inhabitants of Grafton?

-Not very good. Their arrival distressed the citizens of Grafton for several reasons. These new neighbors walked around the streets displaying their firearms. There was a big town meeting where they were told “we don’t want you here.” But they couldn’t do anything. Throwing them out would have been an authoritarian act, very much against American values. The anger continued. There were arguments, but nothing out of control, no violence or anything like that. They were seen as outsiders and were not welcome, but they were tolerated.

Downtown Grafton, in an image from another era


-I understand that there was another big meeting, which was decisive.

-Yes. This was in June. Local residents turned out in droves. They had to move the meeting to a larger venue. They started to express themselves very forcefully. They carried protest signs and even placed a coffin outside the building that said “RIP Free-Towners.” Why all the outrage? One local found a website where the free-towners listed their goals, which seemed quite radical.

-What did they want, specifically?

-They wanted the right to traffic drugs, the trafficking of human body parts, the right to engage in consensual cannibalism... They accepted no taxes, no rules, no restrictions on walking naked in public. They rejected any norms, and the examples they chose to illustrate their position were very provocative. They made it clear that they did not intend to get involved in these activities, in drug or organ trafficking, but they wanted them to be legal. Naturally, the citizens of Grafton felt provoked.

- Did the free-towners work? How did they live?

-I think a lot of them lived on very tight budgets. Many chose to disconnect themselves from society as much as possible. So their only expense once they were living in the woods was food… and food is very cheap. Some of them got part-time jobs outside the community. There were no jobs available in Grafton. One man spent all his savings and retirement money to buy the Local Church. He lived there, but was in such tight financial straits that he couldn’t afford to buy heating oil in the winter. So he stayed shivering inside. And he didn’t always have enough food to eat; he subsisted on the charity of others.

-They wanted to transform Grafton, but they were in the minority. What was their strategy to make these changes effective?

-One of the things they did was run for political offices in the town that were not traditionally considered desirable. The town had a small committee that was in charge of maintaining the cemeteries in town. Usually, if you wanted to be on the committee, that was fine, you could be on it. So, they would join committees like that, and when it came time for them to ask for their annual budgets, they would ask for $0, or maybe $50... that was their way of dismissing that part of the town's business. They knew they weren't going to win high-profile elections in the town. They wanted the town to be a "United Nations-free zone," but that didn't happen, the proposal was rejected. But when it came time to cut the budget for the police department, which only had one full-time officer, or cut the budget for road repair and maintenance of the town's municipal building, they reached out to the townspeople who didn't want to pay taxes. Free-towners joined them in achieving significant reductions in the city's budget.

Grafton Church was sold to a free towner and burned down shortly afterwards. The locals took it back

The town hall reached a state of absolute abandonment


-Did you have a plan B to keep basic services, which you wanted to close, running?

-They occasionally picked up trash. “We do the community work ourselves, we don’t need the government to provide these services,” they said. They also talked about creating a volunteer fire department to compete with the city fire department, and also about forming a militia to provide protection for the neighbors. However, these ideas require organization and commitment, so none of them were really achievable.

-How far did the project go? Chronicles of the time say that the police ran out of money to repair the patrol car.

-Yes. At a meeting, the officer said there were periods when he couldn't go out on patrol because his vehicle had maintenance needs that couldn't be covered by the police budget. Things continued to get worse. The number of complaints from neighbors increased, as did the number of sex offenders in the city. Recycling rates decreased, and potholes in the streets became more frequent and worse. It also took longer to clear snow after winter storms, so residents had to wait longer periods to leave their homes, creating unrest. In addition, the city office was leaking, had run out of hot water, and there was no budget to repair it.

Journalist Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling was working for The Valley News when he visited Grafton to cover a story in 2004. It was while chatting with local residents that he noticed something peculiar was going on...

The end of the libertarian project: violence, drugs and bears​

When there were fires, Grafton depended on other towns for assistance. Then the church caught fire, the one that one of the free-towners had bought. It was a sacred place for the Graftonites, many residents had gotten married there, others had used it for funerals. The owner of the building was inside when it happened... and he died.

The first murder in modern Grafton history also occurred. There was an argument between roommates in a rented apartment where three people lived. In the midst of the dispute, one of the roommates grabbed a firearm and shot the other two. He killed them, resulting in a double homicide.

Another incident followed. It started as a typical roadside argument. Two drivers provoked each other, stopped their cars and confronted each other. One of them, a known free-towner, pulled out his gun and shot the other in the stomach. It was not murder because he survived. All this happened in front of the children of both, who watched the scene from their vehicles.

Then came the least expected enemy: the bears, attracted by the accumulated rubbish. And somehow, strangely stimulated and violent. It is not known why, but it is thought that they felt provoked by the free-towners, who resorted to any technique to scare them away, hurt them or kill them.

Finally, there was an increase in drug activity in the city, including the existence of a methamphetamine lab.

The bears came to Grafton attracted by the garbage, whose collection became "irregular" with the arrival of the libertarians

These are bear-proof garbage bins; with the arrival of the free-towners, Grafton was left without a single one, causing the massive arrival of hungry bears that, without much difficulty, rummaged through the waste of the town's inhabitants, just a few meters from their houses.

-By today, most of the free-towners have left Grafton. What happened?

- It withered away... The activity of the libertarians peaked in 2007 and lasted until 2016. What really put an end to their “Free Town” project was the “Free State” project, which was basically the same thing, but on a larger scale. There was a larger effort, they wanted to recruit 20,000 people. At one point they managed to collect 20,000 signatures and encouraged “everyone come to New Hampshire and do the same thing.” So there was a huge influx of libertarians traveling to the state, and they were all motivated by the same romantic idealism that had motivated the Free Town Project the first time around. And if things had gone well in Grafton, they probably would have continued what had been done there. But in fact, Grafton was already a ruined community. It was plagued by bears and it was no longer an attractive place to live. So these libertarians, who had the whole state to choose from, concentrated on areas that had more robust public services. And they also became more distant from those who had gone to Grafton in the first place. The organizers of the “Free State” wanted to distance themselves from the failure of the other libertarians, even though they were inspired by the same idea… And their project absorbed the energy of the previous one, so there are still a handful of libertarians in Grafton, but they are not proposing new ideas or pushing forward initiatives.

-How do the original inhabitants of the town feel today?

-I think they are happy to have repelled the outsiders. One of them told me: “That is what we do with outsiders, we chew them up and then we spit them out.”

A father teaches his son how to hold a shotgun in Grafton

Grafton, New Hampshire

Utopía libertaria. Viaje al pueblo estadounidense donde se aplicó el experimento anarcocapitalista de la libertad “total”

Grafton está ubicado en New Hampshire, Estados Unidos; en 2004, alrededor de 200 militantes libertarios se mudaron allí, ante la desafiante reticencia de la población local

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