Low pH with kristalon brown

[967]

I've been using kristalon brown recirculating for a few months now and the pH drops to high 4's to 5 constantly. Have read another thread someone complains about exactly this. What do people do to combat this issue? Or is it really a non issue just keep throwing pH up at it? That's what I've been doing and plants seem perfectly fine, but would be nice to not have to

I have a top off res I adjust to 6.5 but it still drops. I know a fair few people rate this stuff I'm wondering about other people's experiences in regards to this.. ?

 

[Creeperpark]

I've been using kristalon brown recirculating for a few months now and the pH drops to high 4's to 5 constantly. Have read another thread someone complains about exactly this. What do people do to combat this issue? Or is it really a non issue just keep throwing pH up at it? That's what I've been doing and plants seem perfectly fine, but would be nice to not have to

I have a top off res I adjust to 6.5 but it still drops. I know a fair few people rate this stuff I'm wondering about other people's experiences in regards to this.. ?

It's important to stabilize the pH with cal mag before adding fertilizers.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

I have seen that before. My current theory is that root exudates are acidic and so abundant, that changes reservoir pH. Other mechanisms such as microbial growth and nutrient uptake can increase pH but are not strong enough to tip the scale towards high pH. pH is just the sum of all effects. I admit that is a bit hand wavy.
Adding pH down is the best thing and only thing you can do. Roots perform best at a specific pH and how it gets there is not too imporant.

Calmag will do the opposite. The main constituent is calcium acetate. As calcium gets uptaken a hydrogen ion is expelled, both are positively charged and the net exchange is 0. Acetate plus a hydrogen ion is acetic acid. Acetic acid lowers pH. Roots do not absorb acetate.
It's also the reason why Calmag often alleviates problems that are not down to fertility but are in fact caused by high pH.

 

[967]

So like cal nitrate/mag sulfate then the kristalon? Shit I been doing it base, mag, calcnit as that's what the last dry shit I used called for. But haven't really been adding mag as I understand there's plenty already in the base.

I'll switch the order up and see how it goes

 

[Hiddenjems]

I've been using kristalon brown recirculating for a few months now and the pH drops to high 4's to 5 constantly. Have read another thread someone complains about exactly this. What do people do to combat this issue? Or is it really a non issue just keep throwing pH up at it? That's what I've been doing and plants seem perfectly fine, but would be nice to not have to

I have a top off res I adjust to 6.5 but it still drops. I know a fair few people rate this stuff I'm wondering about other people's experiences in regards to this.. ?

Ro or tap water?

 

[raul674]

I have experienced large PH drops with kristalon brown and calcinit too. It takes a lot of effort to dial it in and get the PH correct and in my experience less stable than store bought hydro nutes but much better and cheaper once you can get it right. Also when using these ferts you need to understand much more about water chemistry and the relationship between different elements

There are many different factors that can influence the PH so we need more info, what form of water are you using, ro or tap water? also what type of acid are you using to PH your water? what is the PPM of your solution and what is the ratio of kristalon brown : calcinit you are using?

Hard water does not agree too well with the combination of kristalon and calcinit. If you use tap water I have found that you can heavily reduce the amount of calcinit you use and maybe even not need it altogether depeneding on the water make up, the calcinit can be replaced with nitric acid as a PH down instead, which neutralizes the PH and also provides the neccesarry nitrogen without adding calcium into the mix which tap water in certain areas usually has an abundance of.

Adding nitric can actually have the opposite effect and will cause PH to increase rather than decrease, which to me is much preferable to PH dropping so it's good to experiment with a mixture of both nitric and phosphoric until you get it right. When feeding correctly with the N-P-K right ratio and correct PPM with correct neutralization of the PH things will be stable. The ph dropping is a good sign that things are not as they should be and unless you make a change it will be a constant battle, even with a high PH top off res this is not enough to countract your imbalanced root system acidifying the water.

The ph is heavily influenced by nitrogen, the 2 different types of nitrogen NH4 (ammonical) and NO3 (nitrate) behave very differently and when the plant consumes them it can have drastic impacts on the PH. Bruce Bugbee mentions controlling the PH with nitrogen in some videos too.

 

[PlastikeRubba]

What do people do to combat this issue

But a lb of potassium hydroxide for $8

 

[raul674]

But a lb of potassium hydroxide for $8

This does not solve the issue of not having things set correcly in the first place.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

This does not solve the issue of not having things set correcly in the first place.

What? Plants do not conform to our whim of easy growing. We have to fight nature to get what we want.

I mean, if you invent a way to grow plants hydroponically without pH control. Commercialize it and become filthy rich. You will do the world a favour.

 

[raul674]

I never said PH control was not needed, but mindlessly dumping PH up into your feed because PH is dropping without understanding why it is dropping is a mistake.

Most people setup injectors with just PH down, rather than a seperate one for ph up and down.

Also you can actually control PH without any acid or alkalines. Source: Bruce Bugbee you can control PH with different ratios of Nitrogen NH4:NO3

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

I never said PH control was not needed, but mindlessly dumping PH up into your feed because PH is dropping without understanding why it is dropping is a mistake.

Most people setup injectors with just PH down, rather than a seperate one for ph up and down.

Also you can actually control PH without any acid or alkalines. Source: Bruce Bugbee you can control PH with different ratios of Nitrogen NH4:NO3

Did you read his papers? Or are you just repeating what he said in his videos. Those are necessarily abbreviated. If you want to sound scientific say acid or base and write pH with correct capitalization. Your tone of voice is broish.

What you are describing as mindlessly using base is the opposite. The goal is formulated beforehand ('I want a pH of x') and then the progress is controlled as not to overshoot.

If you need acid, base or both depends on many factors. You can't say that a single solution works for every problem.
Please read a textbook.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Also you can actually control PH without any acid or alkalines. Source: Bruce Bugbee you can control PH with different ratios of Nitrogen NH4:NO3

Google says that the product's N is nitrate.

There's no reason why anions released by anion uptake can't be acidic, under some combination of conditions which are apparently met here. Unless these plants have some special love for K with impaired N metabolism.

 

[raul674]

Did you read his papers? Or are you just repeating what he said in his videos. Those are necessarily abbreviated. If you want to sound scientific say acid or base and write pH with correct capitalization. Your tone of voice is broish.

What you are describing as mindlessly using base is the opposite. The goal is formulated beforehand ('I want a pH of x') and then the progress is controlled as not to overshoot.

If you need acid, base or both depends on many factors. You can't say that a single solution works for every problem.
Please read a textbook.

You have various posts telling other members to pick up textbooks. I'm guessing you have some amazing credentials if you are talking like that?

Yes I have read most of his papers and no I'm not an academic and don't claim to be. But I have direct experience with the op's issue

Google says that the product's N is nitrate.

There's no reason why anions released by anion uptake can't be acidic, under some combination of conditions which are apparently met here. Unless these plants have some special love for K with impaired N metabolism.

Yara calcinit has 1.1% ammonical nitrogen

Tap water also contains some normally too. I have had the same issues with salts as the OP. I am just discussing my theories based on trial and error, there are a variety of reasons the PH can be drifting.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Yes I have read most of his papers

Good on your for having read 100 papers. I would have used my time differently as academic papers tend to be extremely repetitive, especially when focusing on a single author. But then I'm an academic who got taught how to read a paper. Focus on abstract and methods section, cast a wide net over the literature etc.
Anyhow you are familiar with his amazing concept of conncting a pH probe to (wait for it, this is really special) a dosing pump adding acid/base.
This is the most straight forward, simple and economic solution to the problem of incorrect pH. Understanding the issue might be interesting if you're in a lab receiving grant money. But we are talking about production here. You look at what the literature recommends (hence my proposal to pick up a textbook) and implement what you can afford and makes sense for your scale.

But I have direct experience with the op's issue

Then tell us the answer and not waste our time talking shit?

Yara calcinit has 1.1% ammonical nitrogen

Tap water also contains some normally too.

That is highly unlikely. In germany for example the maximum permissible value for ammonia is 100 times lower than for nitrate. This makes sense as ammonia's toxicity is much higher and it carries an extremely foul smell. It is unlikely to persist in the distribution system as it is readily absorbed by microbes for its nitrogen and energy content.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Yara calcinit has 1.1% ammonical nitrogen

And? Did they mislabel that for this?

 

[Ca++]

I'm enjoying watching the game. Some good play from all sides. Lets keep it welcoming.

I don't see Ca in it. We are left in control of that, and I'm not seeing how it's being done. It's what keeps most peoples taps at a high pH, and what gives that tap it's buffering qualities. Is it calnit? as I see the feed could use both.

Does it drop less, as Ca use drops through bloom? Or get worse through greater K use. It's very high K, which is often another high pH item. Plants will take it at luxury levels, and do so within hours of a fresh tank being made. Is the drop immediate like that, then not so strong a drop over the coming days?

 

[detox²]

I have experienced large PH drops with kristalon brown and calcinit too.

well, I believe this ist the sulfur/sulfat, it contains 110 mg S per gram, plants will never uptake this amount of sulfat

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

well, I believe this ist the sulfur/sulfat, it contains 110 mg S per gram, plants will never uptake this amount of sulfat

Sulfate is a base. It increases pH.

 

[detox²]

no this fertilizer contains a lot of K2SO4, when K gets taken up sulfate is left in solution

 

[raul674]

I was previously getting pH drops from 6.2 to 4.8 overnight running krista brown and calcinit even with a top off resevoir of 6.5 pH nute solution which they were taking sometimes 100L a day from. 500PPM 1:2 ratio of calcinit:brown

Now I have totally replaced calcinit with nitric acid (as recommended by Yara in some of their documentation) and my ph will instead increase and I neutralize the rest with phosporic acid until stability is reached. I did try pH up solutions but I am against using those, it caused a lot of precipitation and you shouldn't need to use pH up AND down.

I also vastly increased the amount of epsom salt to 50-60ppm + whatever is in the tap water. I do not think these salts are the best for recirculating systems, or anyone that doesn't want to constantly monitor their resevoir like a hawk.

When trying to discuss this problem with people I received 100 different answers and theories and none of them worked. Some said too much sulfur, others said increase buffering with an alkaline solution none of which worked I also experimented with altering ratios with MKP and Potassium sulfate which helped a bit but didn't solve the issue. The easy option would be to use RO water but I like a challenge and Bugbee's papers are what helped me solve my issue. However one thing I find he is very wrong about is keeping a top off resevoir at a 1/3 strength of your nutrient solution, this would never work in RDWC.