OldCoolSativa
Well-known member
Punto rojo often has a beautiful peppery, spicey aroma.
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Looking for landrace / origin info on high Beta Caryophyllene (peppery) strains.
- Thread starter Ringodoggie
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Verdant Whisperer
Well-known member
How can the level' of myrcene and ocimene be influenced, very interesting that the same clone had such different levels. do you have any idea's of what factors could have contributed to this? awesome information about 2.5 - 1 ratio with BCP and Humulene, thanks for information.
So myrcene and ocimene share a common synthase family G.
all ocimene starts off as myrcene so if the transcription rate of that myrcene to ocimene is increased the ratio tips in ocimene favor..
this could be induced with different red spectrum daylight hours night temps but the big one in nature is pests.
Ocimene is a defense against aphids it mimics the alarm pheromone aphids make. Trick them into turning around.
Methyl jasmonate is the phytohormone which is injected when aphids are sensed so foliar application can artificially induced terpene production without the bugs.
In this specific case I'm not sure how these gains were made but I'd say led color spectrum and high Temps are at play. If anyone knows the grower like to know the set up
Soil type, latitude, how far above sea level.
Eleutherios
Active member
I found the Jamaican pheno of Nepalese Jam (at least from around 08 and don't know how much its changed) and Mr Nice's Afghan Skunk Haze to be two of the most peppery tasting varieties, that I've grown. I only mention them because they are both still around.
Verdant Whisperer
Well-known member
Looking at things now i think the stress induced of actually cutting and cloning the plant increased the Menthyl Jasmonate hormones, and the clones should have naturally lower gibberellin levels than mother resulting in decreased myrcene levels slightly because myrcene is more related to fibre type trichomes as opposed to flower or drug type, while redirecting more myrcene into synthesis of ocimene because of the stress of being cut and cloned. the mother between myrcene and ocimene had .99% and the clone had .65%, it would be helpful to find out how much myrcene in needed % wise in the production of ocimene, IMO based on ocimene's description its a blend of myrcene, limonene, and pinene.
Reason 1: Cloning Stress increasing MeJa, in turn increasing ocimene levels
Reason 2: I speculate that clones have less gibberellins and less overall production of myrcene, due to less stem elongation and less leaf surface area, than mother.
The reason i speculate clones have less gibberellins is because the stress of having to grow new root system diverts energy into root formation and less into stem elongation and leaf expansion, slowing down the plants metabolism while the mother plant never had its growth suppressed in such a way affecting the hormonal metabolism of the plant never achieving the efficiency of the mother.
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Eleutherios
Active member
Have you ever done any reading on the usage of melatonin as a foliar/soil drench? One of it's key claims to fame is in resetting hormone levels after stress. If you want to experiment with it, an easy route is to take a 10mg/1mL solution and to add 0.25mL to a gallon. The one, I use, has a little sodium benzoate in it, as a preservative. Once it is diluted, I couldn't imagine it amounting to much at all and have never seen a problem. Anyways, it works really well for priming seeds too, and saw an article showing that it helped partially with genetic decay, in old seed stock. Something I have never seen any other treatment being able to boast. You can use it once a week. However, if your goal were to see if reset hormones caused a commensurate change in growth habit, as per your hypothesis. You might not want to use it more than once or twice. As it tends to encourage secondary growth a lot. So that would change it's growth habit in yet another way. Defeating it's purpose, in this case.
Verdant Whisperer
Well-known member
Interesting, I wonder if a combination of priming agents would work better than just using one or the other.
heres a list of common primming agent and their ratios for 1 gallon of solution. I added in alfalfa extract because seaweed extract has to high levels of cytokinin's to auxins and alfalfa has the opposite levels so it balances out. and cut original seaweed extract in half with addition of alfalfa. I have not tried melatonin before, but it could be useful using after cloning for sure.
- Potassium Nitrate (KNO3): 1 teaspoon
- Melatonin Solution (10mg/1mL): 0.25mL
- Gibberellic Acid (GA3): 1 drop (dissolved in a small amount of water)
- Hydrogen Peroxide (3% solution): 1 teaspoon
- Seaweed Extract (Liquid Concentrate): 1/2 Teaspoon
- Alfalfa Extract (Liquid Concentrate): 1/2 Teaspoon
- Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate): 1/4 teaspoon
- Humic Acid Solution: 1 tablespoon (dissolved in a small amount of water)
- Aloe Vera Gel: 1/4 teaspoon
Eleutherios
Active member
I found that it definitely seems possible to overdo it with combining different agents.
For priming, after experimenting a bit, melatonin is the one, that I prefer.I felt like once it got complicated enough, I was actually hurting germination. So I just picked one. If I were to try something that involved, I think that I'd dial everything back to a 1/5th of normal concentrations, with the exception of the melatonin.
One season, I threw everything, kitchen sink included, at everything, that I had growing, in terms of foliar sprays and soil drenches. One group of subjects were Raspberry Lyanna tomato plants. From the combined treatments, I got a larger harvest, for longer, than what other people were reporting. They seemed to taste great sliced... but then I tried making both pasta sauce and shakshuka with them. I don't generally throw food out, but the acidity made it absolutely impossible not to. After that, I started looking more carefully for growth stimulants being tested on things like vitaculture and fragrant herbs. So that I could see if they were altering the expression of phytochemicals in addition to boosting it.
Also for seaweed, when my broke ass can afford it, for me, its go Acadian Seaweed dry extract, or go home. Nothing else, that I've used seems to come close. I worry about heavy metals in marine products though and wonder if something like nettles plus liquid yeast extract could be mostly interchangeable.
The ones I use are:
Melatonin,
Liquid yeast extract and active dry yeast
Moranga (when I can afford to buy it as my microclimate would make growing it unlikely to be particularly successful, but it can be grown as an annual, planted as a patch.)
Chitosan
Vermicompost leachate
As for your list, even as a foliar, I'd break that list up into maybe 3 different cocktails. There are a number of studies looking at 2 agent combinations, the 2 agents on their own, and a control. The combinations generally are better than either on their own. Trying to suss out what is doing what and not making the recipes too redundant, seems like it would be valuable.
I found liquid yeast extract, vermicompost leachate, melatonin and an aqueous moranga extract to be the winner, for dunking/soaking, for cuttings. I was experimenting with using straight perlite as the medium, to save costs on rockwool and due to it being immensely reusable, but that is another thing.
One final word on the priming: I found that concentration of melatonin, used as a 16 hr soak, followed by thorough drying to generally be the gold standard. If from using the cup method, or whatever, you are aware that a seed line germinates super quickly (Erdpurt and TRSC's Sinai fit the bill) Shortening that to 6-8 hrs is ideal. That is also true of most brassica seeds. Especially anything mustard (mizuna included) or radishes. I did the pepsi challenge on some poppies two years ago, with the control receiving the same concentration, as a seed soak, once broadcast. It wasn't even remotely close.
With herb, one of the biggest advantages, in terms of priming, imo, is simply making them less temperamental about moisture levels and temperatures and a lot less likely to dampen off, early on. Also, don't use moranga as a foliar until after the 1st multi-tipped true leaf. It seems to encourage too much stem elongation, before that stage. Most priming agents will confer some advantage though. Even doing it with heavily aerated water seems to confirm this.
One final aside: if you are growing enough of whatever, to need a more cost effective means of using the melatonin, you can get it as a bulk powder. Its solubility in most solvents, let alone water is absolutely fucking abysmal. The solution I get, has glycerine as it's base. So you might need to follow suit, when making a stock solution. 5 mg/mL might allow a slightly more precise measurement of the stock solution, when diluting it for use. The fact that they thought it prudent to add sodium benzoate tells me that refrigeration of your stock solution might not be a bad idea. If you have it on hand, a tiny bit of phosphoric acid could help preserve it to, as per standard bottled fertilizer practice.
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Verdant Whisperer
Well-known member
Thankyou for your input from past experience, I will look into adding melatonin to my recipe for seed germination as it has had good success for you, I am curious what you mean in this part about letting them dry after soaking? and active dry yeast i recently started using in the garden and i notice results in just a few days of sprinkling some around the base of the plants. I noticed when i used seaweed extract on my oregano plants it increased the internodal spacing and the stems seemed skinnier and looked it up and the hormone profile is 94% cytokinin's, looking at seaweed its makeup is why i think another extract like moringa, or something with similar hormone profile to cannabis would be good, even a cannabis extract could have potential. probably be best if extracts made from all parts of plant so it has varying levels of hormones.
Eleutherios
Active member
So priming, whether hydropriming (just aerated water) or using anything from liquid yeast extract, to certain metal oxide nanoparticles to various purified PGH's, is specifically the practice of soaking a seed, so as to initiate the long chain of biochemical reactions, that culminate in germination taking place, then stopping it. So the idea is that you take seeds. Especially if they haven't been professionally cleaned, you give them a wash. I use 3% peroxide for 3 min. Mercury salts are sometimes still used and of course bleach, at I think 0.1% Rinse. Then you do your soak. Google Scholar will reveal many, many variations on the "what" and "how long?" After the soak, you rinse the seeds well. I use tap and haven't seen an issue. Then you dry them. The "how quickly" depends. Often just putting them on a paper towel and then transferring them to a new one after a few minutes and making sure to move them around a bit. So as to not allow standing water, works. Using a fine mesh strainer, with a hair drier on it's lowest setting works too, but can be tricky. I've also used the air coming out of a dehumidifier. The idea though, is that this isn't just soaking the seeds in something. It is actually triggering a cascade of biochemical reactions in the seed, but then putting it on pause.
I experimented with a FPE made from leaves. It smelled absolutely terrible. I have a strong stomach for these things too. The project blew up. So I can't comment really beyond that. Composting certainly smells better though. Anyways, I think that it is important to remember that while dissecting these various pathways can be useful, that we are still interacting with very simplistic models of complex biochemical interrelationships and that sometimes you have to design an experiment and judge a tree by it's fruit and also that the map is not the territory.
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Verdant Whisperer
Well-known member
Thankyou for the detailed explanation, i was unfamiliar with priming before your comments, if I'm an outdoor grower, how would primming seeds benefit me, in comparison to just soaking in a solution and using a paper towel method until seedlings hatch, would it be better to prim seeds, and just plant directly in soil a week or so later. and how would you store primmed seeds compared to non-primmed and i imagine they must be used sooner since there activated in a sense?but then that wouldn't agree with above comment about helping with geneti decay in old seed stock thankyou again for your time.
Eleutherios
Active member
Your intuition is spot on, with the storage. What is the upper limit? Design an experiment well enough, and record enough high quality data, and you could potentially publish the answer. Its a topic on ongoing research. I would only prime something, that I planned on planting in the next 6 months. I have germinated primed seed over a year after without too ill effects though.
The paper towel method isn't doing you any favors. There is too much risk of damage to the seedling's roots. I used to use it. A cup of water works better. Honestly with this method, I prefer to soak overnight before planting and to use the same soil, as the adults, but nutrient depleted and sometimes with a little extra perlite, depending. With the cup method you can sprout them as much as you want though, but nothing for roots to tangle into and get damaged being removed from.
I don't plant my outdoor seeds directly in the ground. I mean if I had enough of the seeds in question and it were under the right circumstances, sure, but that hasn't been in my cards. Overall though, hardier and more vigorous plants is a good thing in the face of outdoor stressors. It seems like the advantage conferred by priming, with no other intervention after, gives it a good month's boost. That is a critical month. Germinating in soil can be tricky, in terms of moisture levels and temperatures. So it being less finicky is more seeds actually breaking the surface and if it gets a little colder than you'd like for a min. They are less apt to dampening off.
On the other hand, in so much as secondary chemical characteristics are tied in with the plant aging, and this retarding that, I do back off, with my outdoor plants, towards the mid/end of flowering. With the exceptions being to bolster defenses for inclement weather.
I'm glad that you find it useful. Its probably better than talking at my girlfriend about this stuff.
Holeshot51
Well-known member
