Long veg vs short veg --> Quality differences?

[KappaRoss]

So I found that the question "what yields more" long or short veg has been asked quite a bit and there is info on that.


But I did not find out if long vs short veg has, in you guys' experience, any effect on quality of the harvest?

I am asking because pheno hunting could obviously be sped up considerably if I can send rooted clones directly into flowering.

As I am not concerned with yield, I could sample the harvest of each plant much earlier and make selections much faster.

My worry is that the taste, flavors and effects of plants that had a very short vegetative phase is inferior/different to that of plants that had a proper/long vegetative phase.

Any opinions/experience in that regard?

If nobody knows I obviously will have to bite the bullet and just try it out... Having one clone of a plant go straight into flower after rooting (or maybe 1-2 weeks of vegetation) and another clone of the same plant go into flower after a long veg (4-8 weeks). Harvest, cure properly and make a side by side comparison of the samples with special consideration to taste/smell/flavor and effect.

 

[Astronautrob]

So I found that the question "what yields more" long or short veg has been asked quite a bit and there is info on that.


But I did not find out if long vs short veg has, in you guys' experience, any effect on quality of the harvest?

I am asking because pheno hunting could obviously be sped up considerably if I can send rooted clones directly into flowering.

As I am not concerned with yield, I could sample the harvest of each plant much earlier and make selections much faster.

My worry is that the taste, flavors and effects of plants that had a very short vegetative phase is inferior/different to that of plants that had a proper/long vegetative phase.

Any opinions/experience in that regard?

If nobody knows I obviously will have to bite the bullet and just try it out... Having one clone of a plant go straight into flower after rooting (or maybe 1-2 weeks of vegetation) and another clone of the same plant go into flower after a long veg (4-8 weeks). Harvest, cure properly and make a side by side comparison of the samples with special consideration to taste/smell/flavor and effect.

New member, first post, hello everyone my name is Rob.

Wanted to know if you were going to go through with the experiment since you didn't seem to get an answer. I wish I had an answer to your question but unfortunately I do not. I do have 2 clones at 2 weeks right now and was thinking the same exact thing today, how early is too early to switch? I mean my girls look ready, and I've read that going 12/12 from the start with clones is fine, but that was only from one source. This is my first time with clones, always grown from seed in the past, so I don't know what's kosher or not.

 

[Xray Kimono]

You can go 12/12 whenever you want, but a plant won't start flowering if it is immature. Each plant matures at its own rate. But usually even 12/12 from seed won't start throwing any pistls for a few weeks. Then you are stuck w a stretched out gangly plant that didn't spend enough time developing its root structure. This has a negative effect on both quality AND yield. The best bet it to just go ahead with 2-3 weeks veg before flip so the roots can develop and plant structure anyway during that time instead of just stretching and trying throw flowers too soon..

 

[Xray Kimono]

As far as having them throw flowers quickly to see which are the keepers.... You should probably grow them out the same way you will once they are your keepers.. That way you will know if that particular plant grows well and produces well FOR YOU and your specific setup... If you go 12/12 from seed that only tells you how each plant grows starting 12/12 from seed... It tells you nothing about the bud of that plant fully grown and matured...

And yes, to a certain extent , bigger plants give better bud. Actually,MATURE PLANTS give better bud than immature plants thrown into 12/12...

 

[uraverage]

To me it seems all strain specific.

 

[Baron Greenback]

I like a long veg period (coco hydro not soil though), there are numerous benefits as far as I am concerned - it gives time to train them as you want and prepare them for flowering. I feel a sexually matured plant will give a larger harvest within the timescale stated by the breeder - plus it's a good excuse to spend more time with your plants

 

[b8man]

In my experience, for pheno hunting you'd find out which ones stood out even with a short veg. I've never run 12/12 from seed, but have done after a few weeks and it was clear which had the high/flavor that I preferred. The extra stress you put it under also weeds out the overly sensitive plants, something I like to find out earlier rather than later. It always took several more runs before I could dial exactly what the strain needed to get the best high though.

 

[KappaRoss]

Hey guys, good stuff, thanks for the feedback!

I did some further research myself but not on this workstation so I can't find the links.... I found an article on rollitup and ********* I believe.

The question was discussed there and the concensus was that longer veg does NOT affect potency. If anything, apparently shorter veg, meaning smaller plants, has a chance to positively affect potency.

As everything with this plant, potency is a result of genetics and environment.

The question was if the "optimal environment for potency" would include a longer vegetative phase.

The answer seems to be no.

Genetics and light seem to be the predominant factors in potency (as with most other aspects).

The reasoning behind shorter veg actually having a higher chance of positively affecting potency is that shorter plants will allow more light-saturation of the budding sights since leaf-matter doesn't block out as much light.


The argument that ultimately sold me on this was some guy asking the question "We know that many experienced growers prefer to use SOG or SCROG. To do so, shorter vegetative cycles are required. Do you think that experienced growers would be willing to sacrifice potency/quality if those methods would yield "inferior" bud?".

While I do think that some experienced growers are commercially motivated and it is natural to want "as much of the good stuff as possible" and have bountiful harvests, I can't imagine that all breeders, medicinal growers, etc. would be willing to sacrifice potency/quality for quantity and if short veg, SOG etc. would negatively affect potency, it would be a more discussed topic.



So, without having run the test myself (I still plan to because the opportunity to do so will naturally present itself in the long run with the setup I have in mind), I came to the conclusion that length of vegetative phase does NOT affect quality/potency and ONLY affects yield!


I will know for sure once I have grown out my 30 something seeds, selected the keepers, started the cloning and can compare identical plants under different conditions. But that point is still maybe half a year or longer in the future. I am still a ways away from starting, I just like to start my planning and preparation early.


My research actually led me to something that seems to have a higher effect on potency/quality and also taste/flavor/smell (which are the most important factors to me). And that is terpene manipulation!
Low Stress Training, temperature manipulation and other forms of manipulating the plant and lightly inducing stress, seem to be able to aid/stimulate terpene production.

From my understanding, I should look more into that topic now.

Thanks for all the feedback, hope I could give some valuable info back. However I think this is just old-knowledge that was burried a bit deep or the question was not asked before exactly in the words I used and that is probably all...

 

[KappaRoss]

/edit (since I can't edit, still no fiddy )

Just to clarify:
I was never looking into flowering plants from seed or prematurely!!!

I was just wondering if I plant a seed, grow it out and clone it, does it matter if I give the clone a "proper" vegetation of 4-8 weeks to let it "mature" fully and grow out naturally?

It seems no!

As soon as the clone is fully rooted (which should only take a week or two), I could technically send it immediately into flower.

Yield will be much lower than with a "proper" veg but the quality of the harvest should be the same.

This way I can probably shave several weeks off of my growth cycles and can determine much sooner which plants to keep and which to cull.



At this point I should also mention that the reason why clones can be sent into flowering immediately after rooting, whereas the same practice with seedlings is very questionable, is that the clones technically have the same "maturity" as the mother they came from. They just need to root their medium and technically they are just a smaller version of the same plant with "genetically" the same age.

This was also one of the arguments that sold me on longer veg not having any impact on quality.

 

[Astronautrob]

/edit (since I can't edit, still no fiddy )

Just to clarify:
I was never looking into flowering plants from seed or prematurely!!!

I was just wondering if I plant a seed, grow it out and clone it, does it matter if I give the clone a "proper" vegetation of 4-8 weeks to let it "mature" fully and grow out naturally?

It seems no!

As soon as the clone is fully rooted (which should only take a week or two), I could technically send it immediately into flower.

Yield will be much lower than with a "proper" veg but the quality of the harvest should be the same.

This way I can probably shave several weeks off of my growth cycles and can determine much sooner which plants to keep and which to cull.



At this point I should also mention that the reason why clones can be sent into flowering immediately after rooting, whereas the same practice with seedlings is very questionable, is that the clones technically have the same "maturity" as the mother they came from. They just need to root their medium and technically they are just a smaller version of the same plant with "genetically" the same age.

This was also one of the arguments that sold me on longer veg not having any impact on quality.

Yea it seems like our actual question got lost in sauce there but I'm glad you found some literature on it, thanks for posting it! I really didn't think it would effect the potency at all, it's interesting to see that some people think it actually increases it (don't see how that works but ok). I think I'm gonna go about 3-4 weeks on these clones then flip them. I feel like doing it at 2 weeks is a bit early just for the simple fact that idk if the stems and branches are strong enough to support big buds. Thanks again for the info though!

 

[mowood3479]

Lots of ways to grow herb... I don't think there is any "proper" or improper way to do it.
That said, I think general health of the plant is the main concern when considering quality/potency. Regardless of grow style I like to give plants at minimum 2-3 days of veg in their final container in the flower room.
It gives them a chance to adjust to the environment/lighting and transplant before I start them flowering.
Could u take rooted cuts and transplant and flip the same day n still grow some nice herb? Ya I think so.. But I prefer to give them the 2-3 days..
I'm rambling but just wanted to say that there are thousands of ways to grow dank herb.... So terms like "proper" veg time are a bit misleading to the novice grower... What is ideal for one situation may not be ideal for the next.
It's more nuanced than 4 weeks of veg is proper and 2 weeks is not..
Ok pointless ramble over and out

 

[soserthc1]

Seems 2 weeks with dry ( er) soil/ medium is the magic # for roots to hit bottom

If your environment is good I don't see a difference in quality or potency on veg just time and yield

 

[KappaRoss]

I will watch my wording more mowood.

In my mind I was using "proper" here in the English sence of describing "a good way to do it".

You are right, it is a bit misleading the way I worded it, I will watch out more. Still new to most of the terminology I am throwing around in this thread xD

Also to anybody reading this:
Don't let my exhausting writing style blind you to the fact that I have only grown very few times and ages ago, so nothing I say is based on experience but rather on my (extensive) research that continues as we speak...


I would edit my post and replace the "proper" but I still need mah fiddy posts ....


And yes, I agree that in the end we are talking about an organic process here: growing da herb.

Since it is organic, there is no black and white, no right or wrong.

A good gardener, breeder or anyone working with living material, should always build a connection to that living material and "listen" to the plant in our case. Examine it carefully and interpret what the plant is trying to "tell" you properly and results will follow.

That being said, my question was of rudimentary nature. I can grow a healthy plant with 1-2 weeks of vegetative growth and flower them in their small containers without worrying about the quality/potency of the harvest being inferior because they are so small/only vegged for a short period.
As long as I give them what they need and keep them healthy, the quality of the bud should be the same (according to my research) as if I had given them a longer veg phase and transplanted into larger containers (with time for plant to root/acclimate).

The drawback would only be yield, which is fine with me.

I am perfectly willing to sacrifice yields early on in order to speed up my selection and breeding process.

Once I have made my selections/bread my strains, I can still adjust the environmental conditions towards longer veg, larger containers and resulting higher yields.

 

[KappaRoss]

As far as having them throw flowers quickly to see which are the keepers.... You should probably grow them out the same way you will once they are your keepers.. That way you will know if that particular plant grows well and produces well FOR YOU and your specific setup... If you go 12/12 from seed that only tells you how each plant grows starting 12/12 from seed... It tells you nothing about the bud of that plant fully grown and matured...

And yes, to a certain extent , bigger plants give better bud. Actually,MATURE PLANTS give better bud than immature plants thrown into 12/12...

Sorry Kimono, kinda forgot to reply to your feedback in the other posts.

Because you raise an interesting point and can maybe answer this:
Clones are as "mature" as their mother plants, aren't they?
That's why with clones you technically only have to wait until they are rooted, before flipping them to 12/12. This would result in not the best yield, but quality would not improve from longer veg (other factors can significantly influence quality of course, just not veg).

Or you see that differently?

From my understanding, plant MATURITY only becomes a factor if you grow from seed and plan to flower plants from seed that haven't fully matured yet.
Plants that are mature enough to have clones taken, are usually also mature enough to flower (again, if I don't missunderstand).
If not, they will likely be mature enough, once they recovered from taking the cuts.

 

[mowood3479]

I will watch my wording more mowood.

In my mind I was using "proper" here in the English sence of describing "a good way to do it .

It's all good homey. I don't mean to nitpick ur post. I understood what u meant (the quotation marks signified an alternate meaning)...

I find the written word to be really interesting... How small differences in sentence syntax can change the meaning altogether.

I just wanted to make a clarifying post so that some gardening novice researching veg time for the first time didn't run across this thread and
Get themselves confused...
I hope I didn't come off as critical. Nothing wrong with ur original post, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
Buenos dias

 

[KappaRoss]

I find the written word to be really interesting... How small differences in sentence syntax can change the meaning altogether.

Word

Linguists unite ^^

I'm pretty sure I get ya.
And appreciate the friendly n informative conversation.
So all is good indeed

Can't give ya rep tho... Think I'm too low "level"... need ma fiddy cents...


Ima make a "TL;DR" of my current main questions...
Maybe this way we can get some more peeps to chime in/find out if others are interested.

Also, 1 more post to 50...
Oh glory

 

[KappaRoss]

TL;DR (Too Long Didn't Read)

As long as plant is mature (care for difference between "grown from seed" vs "grown from clone") and rooted, the length of vegetative phase should most certainly influence yield only. Potency should remain unaffected.

Disregard rest if you just wanna know the answer to the original question. Will Edit first post, once I got 50

Some of the finer details follow...




Current main question:
If I pop my seeds, grow them until they are stable to take clones (giving them some extra time to be sure), then take the clones and root them...

Would you at this point rather:
A) Send the seedplant (grown from seed) into flower

B) Send the rooted clone into flower (give him a few days after rooting and transplanting to flower medium)

?

My goal being that I want to determine which of the pehotypes are keepers for long term keeping in the veg tent as bonzai mums and/or dads.

The way I see it, it wouldn't make a difference for potency and could only affect yield.
That being said, I don't want to immediately clone the mother 100 times and grow her out after I determined the keepers.

I want to bonzai them for long term preservation as mother/father plants. So growing the seedplants "again" from their first clone, while they themselves go into bloom, would give me additional time to train them for long term preservation.
It would also allow me to better make my selection as the plants would have had more time to veg and flower in total and would give me more info on growth behavior/patterns/flowering behavior etc.


The goal is basically to efficiently (as few grows as possible) build a little bonsai genetics library (maybe not THAT bonsai, they will have 140-160 cm to work with but can't get too bushy because it will only be about 1.4 m²).
Or my personal "Noah's Ark of Cannabis" if you will...

For the first year or two, the goal is to do 3-6 strains.
For each strain, determine the significant pheno-types I get for both male and female. Select 1-3 female and 1-2 male keepers for each pheno type.

Once I have the necessary "winner" plants from the phenotypes I want, I will start crossbreeding as many combinations as I can.
Having read that canna girls don't mind a gangbang (apparently it is fine to manually pollinate each budding site by hand and in doing so using pollen from different males) and produce quite the seeds per bud (if flowered long enough and under the right environment), this shouldn't even take all that long.

Then the F1 bonanza starts, growing out, selecting and then we get to the F2 inbred hybrids and now it gets interesting.

At this point I may start to introduce more/new genetics...


Boy let me tell you, narrowing it down to 3-6 strains was the worst part so far in my opinion... And I haven't even done that xD
Just the first 3 so far (Blueberry, Sweet Skunk, C99)...
But I have frontrunners for the other 3 (some Bubblegum but which... can't get BOG in Europe, too expensive... Nirvana Bubblelicious? Can I get in touch with Chrome for some Pink Bazooka?? .....the remaining 3 strains would probably come from ACE.. maybe there is room for 2 ACE and 1 dark horse... I could get behind including some hashplant genetics... Have Blueberry and others though..)

 

[Xray Kimono]

True a clone is as mature as original, but I think my point was more along the lines of root development maturity being a factor instead of overall sexual maturity of a plant

 

[KappaRoss]

Hmm, correct me if I am wrong:

Root development maturity is technically achieved once the plant has penetrated its container with roots, no?

While the starting medium in that case should obviously not be a jiffy plug or germination cube or whatever.

 

[Dropped Cat]

Once a cutting switches to root uptake of nutes from a cloner mode
she/he is ready for the flower room.

I look for new growth on the new transplanted cuttings to help decide.

The only downside to flowering young plants is missing the plant's
total structure, branching etc.

But I'm figuring that can be observed after keeper status in determined.

Keep us posted, we're all counting on you.