Living organic soil from start through recycling

[ClackamasCootz]

Is that ahimsaa research foundation dot org? Looked for neem there and didn't find it. Maybe I have the wrong folks?

gregor_mendel

My apologies - it's The Ahimsa Alternative dba Neem Resource

Sorry about that......

 

[rrog]

http://www.neemresource.com

These guys are awesome!

 

[canna woop!]

rrog regarding your post about growth inhibitors in seed wash, i accidentally applied the seed wash (from an initial soak of barley and clover) to some 2-3 day old plants. I am fairly sure there is some growth inhibition, I definitely noticed a lag. In my mind it fits. so thanks for that good info to clear it up.


also still kinda wondering about papaya sprouts? are the sprout tea's good for plants, whereas the seed (and seed wash) itself is a de-wormer?

I want to add papaya just not sure the best way. growing papaya in this area seems a bit over board on the zone denial, anyway I have plenty of nettles and thyme to grow.

 

[rrog]

Coot- you readin' this? You are right on track.

I think I remember CC saying there were a host of microbicides in and on the shell. I suppose all sprouts are good and some are a lot better or have some unique compound.

 

[DuckDuckGoose]

when using dry comfey and nettle make sure to choose your container wisely... the foam will spill the goods out all over the floor, not sure if this happens with the fresh leaves though.

 

[JoeDudeGuy]

LOL

DuckDuck,

When I saw your cute little container (in your pic), I immediately remembered that classic line from JAWS; "We're gonna need a bigger boat!"

In your case, however, you'll do well to invest in a nice gallon or two "workhorse" bucket. They're heavy duty, will not rust, and you'll find yourself using it for way more than just brewing a tea.

Thanks for the humor though !

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Yeah it will make a mess on your floor hehe.

If that all you need and have a small airstone then i guess there is the benefit of good aeration...

Just need some kind of tray/tub to put your bucket on.

 

[Microbeman]

I am curious if microbes are involved in the breakdown of liming agents like CaCO3? Or is that straight up acid/base chemistry?

Even in a so called sterile soil can't you make Ca available with acid and water? (not saying you would want to do that...just saying can't you?)

This is one of those times when I say 'I do not know'.

 

[Microbeman]

Question: How does sand compare to clay.

Specifically:

-what are their primary uses?
-how do they compare with regards to moisture retention?
-how do they compare with regards to nutrient availability
-what are the favourite types of clay you use?


To elaborate, I needed an amendment to help retain moisture better, as the plants were running dry far too quickly, so I hastily added sand. But from what I am reading on cation exchange capacity it seems like bentonite, or some other clay, is a far superior ingredient that satisfies the same purposes as sand but also helps significantly add more plant available nutrients.

Sorry for the newb questions.

Okay I'll try answering this.

Sand is a good thing to add drainage to the mix and really has no CEC attributes but can bring some good minerals to the table. I use it in a soil mix for its drainage/porosity capacity.

Various clays are more of a soil compacter, not allowing a lot of drainage, especially if not combined with organic matter, loam or sand. Many a farmer complains of red clay soil!

Most clays are a power punch of minerals but besides having a moisture retaining quality they also 'mostly' carry a negative electrical charge. This is the oumph! in CEC (and organic matter). They grab onto and hold the positively charged nutrients which are released later on by our mining microbes when instructed to by 'bioelectrochemical' signals from the roots of the plant.

The trick is to use a clay powder with a heavy negative charge, lots of minerals and good moisture retention/expansion. Most sources of bentonite fulfill this....just be sure the heavy metals are not sky-rocket...for a human price.

 

[think_fast]

Okay I'll try answering this.

Sand is a good thing to add drainage to the mix and really has no CEC attributes but can bring some good minerals to the table. I use it in a soil mix for its drainage/porosity capacity.

Various clays are more of a soil compacter, not allowing a lot of drainage, especially if not combined with organic matter, loam or sand. Many a farmer complains of red clay soil!

Most clays are a power punch of minerals but besides having a moisture retaining quality they also 'mostly' carry a negative electrical charge. This is the oumph! in CEC (and organic matter). They grab onto and hold the positively charged nutrients which are released later on by our mining microbes when instructed to by 'bioelectrochemical' signals from the roots of the plant.

The trick is to use a clay powder with a heavy negative charge, lots of minerals and good moisture retention/expansion. Most sources of bentonite fulfill this....just be sure the heavy metals are not sky-rocket...for a human price.

Wow thank you MM so very much! My questions seem a little less stupid after reading your helpful response.

Fascinating as it is, it's all just way over my head. I do have another question though: if certain sands are capable of containing rich supplies of nutrients, and so can clays, how does the plant utilize these nutrients from the sand? I think I understand in a very rudimentary way why clay minerals are accessible: the negative charge allows it to adsorb elements and make them available to plants (???). Does this mean that the minerals in sand can 'attach' themselves to the negative sites on clay and humus, and this is how these minerals are made available to plants?

I feel like perhaps I am overcomplicating myself. The challenge that I am facing is trying to obtain a high CEC (thanks YS!) due to very small soil containers. I am trying not to go large. Stubborn, eh?

 

[JoeDudeGuy]

I am trying not to go large. Stubborn, eh?

Nope, not at all.....

 

[ClackamasCootz]

think_fast

Availability of an element's ions can be a function of chemistry, biology and often it's a combination.

The role of clay doesn't come into play until the ions are free and they carry a positive charge (+) which will link with the negative charge (-) of the clay platelet. It remains there until that ion is exchanged by a Hydrogen (H) ion that the plant's roots exude and this exchanged ion us now absorbed by the plant's roots.

Keep in mind that not all elements are assimilated by the roots via Cation Exchange - Phosphorus is a good example. It's assimilation is a result of microbial functions.

Back to the clay & humic acids in the soil - the ability to hold certain cations in place is how 'pH' is maintained in an organic soil. pH (Probable Hydrogen) is controlled, in part, by the ability for the free floating Hydrogen ions to be kept in place until they are exchanged or replaced by another ion.

For example a soil biologist writes Calcium as Ca++ to show that the Calcium ion has '2 extra' exchange sites so a single Calcium ion can be exchanged for 2 Hydrogen ions. It's this misunderstanding of Calcium's function in this paradigm that leads to the stoner science mythology of Cal-Mag Lockouts, Calcium deficiencies, etc. Dumping soil amendments containing Calcium bonded to other elements requiring several weeks if not months before it can be made available is one outcome.

HTH

CC

 

[think_fast]

Thanks CC! While I may not understand much about plants, it doesn't stop me from loving them!

Love goes deeper than understanding

 

[MJPassion]

This about sums it up thus far!

This about sums it up thus far!

I'm about to get my library and trash it after reading this thread. Still on page 88 so I've got a couple more days of reading t do to catch up with yall.

CC, GasCan, Scrappy, MM anybody I've missed... Yall are making some great contributions and my sig is the reason I keep reading...

Keep up the awesome conversations and showing off bud porn and most of all... pissin on the hydro stores... IDK how many thousands of dollars I've wasted with them, to get inferior overpriced products. I still have a few bottles of "crap" but wont waste my time using them in my indoor garden.

Couple quick questions...
CC, Gascan, but anybody out there really...
Do you bother having your soils tested so you know exactly what to re-amended with or have you always gone by feel?

Also, my understanding of basic chemistry has severely faded so I've been checking out http://www.soilminerals.com/ and have considered purchasing "The Ideal Soil" book in order to get me back up to speed. Does anybody have any experience with this piece of literature? What do ya think of it?

Hope the link is cool... If not I apologize.

Oh yeah... all for this awesome thread.

Damn stanley, 1300 posts. By my calculations the information in this thread is more than a grower could get in over ten years of skunk magazine, twenty five years of high times, and all of Jorge's books, and here it's all in one compost heap. Good job youngin......scrappy

 

[Gascanastan]

That's a damned fine first post~
Soil tests are inaccurate in living organic soil. The best they can do is give you an understanding of what is happening at the time of the test. Nutrients are sequestered in the bodies of billions of organisms. Whatever is on the diet of each particular organism determines what gets released as nutrients in the form of waste that the plant can use or other organisms break down even further...or not.

It can't hurt to do a soil test to give you an estimate of what is happening atm...but that doesn't mean in the next few days anything like,water content,temps,or available food could change the universe for micro organisms..encouraging faster action on the fish meal which is suddenly pooped out by billions of organisms and the change would definitely be a different result on a soil test.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

MJP

That book is most helpful from an agriculture perspective, there are other books which provide more information from a horticulture perspective. Not that they're completely unrelated but there are significant differences in the materials you might choose in one vs. the other.

Here's a solid list of books at Acres USA Magazine that might be helpful. They offer a complimentary copy of their magazine which is the oldest and largest magazine for sustainable and organic food production.

Their archives are worth reviewing as well......

HTH

CC

 

[DuckDuckGoose]

they love the comfrey/nettle tea! (what was left after it spilled out on the floor)

they love the comfrey/nettle tea! (what was left after it spilled out on the floor)

 

[Neo 420]

Its great to see folks soaking up the info in here. You better be careful though... It will transcend into your lifestyle.

 

[Gascanastan]

You better be careful though... It will transcend into your lifestyle.

Elevated resin levels from organic gardening will have that effect........pretty soon you'll start getting all transcendental and 'aware'.....soon after you may end up looking/acting like these guys..... talk about a 'god complex',these cats are surely organic weed snobs....

"....not now mom,I'm trying to transcend"

 

[MJPassion]

That's a damned fine first post~
Soil tests are inaccurate in living organic soil. The best they can do is give you an understanding of what is happening at the time of the test. Nutrients are sequestered in the bodies of billions of organisms. Whatever is on the diet of each particular organism determines what gets released as nutrients in the form of waste that the plant can use or other organisms break down even further...or not.

It can't hurt to do a soil test to give you an estimate of what is happening atm...but that doesn't mean in the next few days anything like,water content,temps,or available food could change the universe for micro organisms..encouraging faster action on the fish meal which is suddenly pooped out by billions of organisms and the change would definitely be a different result on a soil test.

Thanks GC... my concern in mostly my outdoor plot, as far as testing goes. I'm in the SW and the soil is hard hard hard so I'm just trowing a guess out that there is tons of Mg and little Ca. This, I would like to get balanced out. My growing season is something like June 1 to the end of Sept so it's short. I had a bag of Dolomite for Ca/Mg but I already know I don't want the Mg in it so I threw it on the driveway. Now I've got to source gypsum. I know there is a layer of Gyp about 6-8 fet below my topsoil. Can I harvest and use that?

MJP

That book is most helpful from an agriculture perspective, there are other books which provide more information from a horticulture perspective. Not that they're completely unrelated but there are significant differences in the materials you might choose in one vs. the other.

Here's a solid list of books at Acres USA Magazine that might be helpful. They offer a complimentary copy of their magazine which is the oldest and largest magazine for sustainable and organic food production.

Their archives are worth reviewing as well......

HTH

CC

I think I've already got the sample magazine coming.
I've downloaded quite the plethora of OLD books from that guy in the PNW (can't recall his name or site at the moment). You know, "Bread from Stones, A Postlude, Better Soils, Soil Formation, etc., etc., etc.

I guess, one of these days, I'll have to sit down and read them. I started Bread from Stones a few months back but got to doing other things so it's been ignored.

Thank You CC for reminding me about those books, and for your contributions to IC and for being the nice guy you seem to be.

Respect!


I just couldn't help myself... LMAO

Advanced Nutrients is now making an excellent flushing agent - I won't flush without it.
Jerry

Is this stuff supposed to help your septic system cause if it does...

I'm on it like flies on poo!