Living organic soil from start through recycling

[ClackamasCootz]

Also anyone have any experience with that old Burmese from Vancouver??? Who's Burmese was this...Vic High's? I think it was from the V.I.S.C. I beileve it's the same Burmese Reeferman had also

If the Burmese is from V.H. then you have something really special to work with. A cross with the Nigerian would be at the top of my list......

 

[mofeta]

Hi CC

Thanks!

On the Yucca- I live in Arizona, there are more than 10 native species here. I own land that has numerous plants of several species. I also have a number of specimens growing in 15 gal nursery containers (I collect xerophytic plants, cactus, agaves, yuccas etc).

All of the species in the genus contain saponins in all parts of the plant. The root has the most, but you have to seriously damage/kill the plant to harvest it. That's OK though, as the leaves have plenty.

I have had a lifelong interest in bushcraft/wilderness survival, and found out about the saponin content of the leaf when learning to make cordage as a kid. Yucca fibers have the highest tensile strength of any natural fiber native to North America, so it makes excellent cordage. In the process of making it, you smash the leaves to free the fibers, and then wash them in water and seperate them. The leaves start to get soapy when you smash them, and foam real well when you add water.

With the larger-leaved species, 3 or 4 leaves macerated and added to 5 gal of water will give you a bucket of suds.

I first found out about the medicinal properties of Yucca from a old-school horse doctor when I was young. When I found out it was used as a bioaugmentation agent in sewer plants, I pursued it as a horticultural tool and found it to be excellent.

I also love Aloe. I have over 30 species in my collection. Some of them are hybrids my dad and I made. One of these is a vera x saponaria. The vera parent is the common medicinal Aloe that everyone is familiar with. Saponaria, as the specific epithet alludes to is the "soap aloe", and is very high in saponins. The hybrid grows like a weed here, is much larger that either parent, and can make leaves almost three feet long, and several inches thick. Very sudsy- works great in horticulture!

 

[Gascanastan]

He's quite the photographer as well as grower as well as breeder!

My camera sucks,If given the space I could do better with selections,and yeah..I guess I grow cannabis good huh...thanks rrog

Damn.....beautiful....

The male was a dandy looking gent...and that particular Kali Mist plant was a bit abused....

Also anyone have any experience with that old Burmese from Vancouver??? Who's Burmese was this...Vic High's? I think it was from the V.I.S.C. I beileve it's the same Burmese Reeferman had also

If the Burmese is from V.H. then you have something really special to work with. A cross with the Nigerian would be at the top of my list......

I'm totally unsure of the origin of the Burmese..only hints...and out of the 5 Burmese x Cherry Bomb seeds from Mr. Greengenes...I only got this one plant. I was hoping it'd be a male....and this male is long gone. I think there may be some pollen in cold strorage....somewhere. I think it was used to hit a Trainwreck skunk here locally...in fact I have some of those seeds.

I could use a male from either seed group and hit the Nigerian...could hit the nigerian with that male NL#5/Haze also...so many possibilities...so little space and time.

If my room wasn't full of pots containing dumb ass organic recycled soil and I had a dro set up...maybe I would.

I also think the TO x Burmese/Cherry Bomb has the ability to be knocking socks off eventually.



Here's a quote from Chimera.....

"The burmese is a really special sativa lady that was selected from true land of origin stock a friend of mine picked up in his travels to the region years back. I'm puffing a bongload right now, and it's great pot imho!

She's very fast for a sat, and finishes in approximately 55 days in most gardens.

The smell is definitely in the sweet candy category; to me she smells like the 'lik'em sticks" found in fun dip candy, if you remember those from your childhood, perhaps with a hint of baby asprin, but much sweeter. I'm sure you can appreciate that the BB heritage of the hybrid just intensifies this sweetness, and adds a berry component, which is truely pleasureable on the palate.

The effect is imediate and cerebral, but some have given feedback that some are stony. Different strokes for different folks, as everyone's personal neurochemistry has an impact on perception of the high. I get racy and I tend to get run on and on... it's not a bad thing unless you are trying to sleep!
Hope this helps somewhat,
-Chimera"


From that quote I would ass-ume that is was Vic High's or someone very near that scene since he had the BB @ the same time the Burmese would have made it's appearance...(which is kind of disappointing to hear that there may be Blueberry in the Burmese..that would explain the fat leaves if this is the case...could also have got the fat leaves from the Afghani in the Cherry Bomb)....ass-uming this is the same BB that Vic had...Vic got the BB from DJ or Marc....the same BB in BMR...that Vic worked before they ended up in Subcool's hands....Then Subcool and a guy 'Tommy' made a cross with that BB to 'Gainsville green'....then that cross went to BOG...where BOG crossed it with his Bubblegum....to make Blue Moon Rocks.

 

[gregor_mendel]

Nice thread, folks. Twenty nine pages in fourteen days.

I usually avoid threads with organic in the title, and have changed my tune in just a few hours of reading.

A few questions for those in the know:

1. How is the cation exchange taking place as described here different from what happens in my hydro/coco with mineral salts? Still exchanging an H+ for the needed cation if it is available?

2. Does anyone here use coco in their soil? I read the thread quickly, and didn't catch it if anyone does.

3. Do I understand correctly that folks here are making compost outdoors and using it in a mix for indoor plants?

thanks

g_m

 

[Gascanastan]

Nice thread, folks. Twenty nine pages in fourteen days.

I usually avoid threads with organic in the title, and have changed my tune in just a few hours of reading.

A few questions for those in the know:

1. How is the cation exchange taking place as described here different from what happens in my hydro/coco with mineral salts? Still exchanging an H+ for the needed cation if it is available?

2. Does anyone here use coco in their soil? I read the thread quickly, and didn't catch it if anyone does.

3. Do I understand correctly that folks here are making compost outdoors and using it in a mix for indoor plants?

thanks

g_m

CC's the man with the science skill to answer question #1...Darc has a good grip on that as well.

Yes I use coco as part of the base soil mix...I ass-ume it works the way fiber added to concrete does,that's why I use it....albiet an inert material for harboring microlife.......it builds a good base IMO.

YES we are making our own compost and utilizing it as a component for raising humic levels and supplying diversity of organisms,fungi,insects,etc. in the indoor planting mix (no Ph'ing..anything) among other standard issue benefits associated with composting.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

mofeta

Australia is the 3rd largest producer of Aloe vera extracts and that is where I found the best information on using this plant for general and container gardening. My whole focus on growing plants is to use plant materials and very small amounts of animal derived amendments - pretty much organic fish meal and organic fish bone mea, Crab meal and that's about it)

What shocked me the first few times I used Aloe vera for rooting cuttings was the sheer amount of root sites and then the rate which they pushed out from the stalk. And healthy, vigorous, strong meaning that when I transplanted them into a soil high in worm castings (enzymes) and watered them with Aloe vera, alfalfa tea, kelp meal tea, neem meal tea with liquid silica - the plants bolted in a few short days with short internode, strong stalks and branches, etc. If a gardner can bypass any and all transplant shock the results are amazing.

Not difficult to dial in - just a bit of tweaking here and there.

You definitely live in the right place for desert plants - I try to use as much native plants found in the PNW - Horsetail ferns (oldest true plant), Yarrow (friggin' everywhere!), Stinging Nettles and then I grow Comfrey and Borage and several dozen members of the Mint family for their properties.

Still - having a couple of hundred Aloe vera plants would be pretty cool as well!

If you're interested, Horizon Herbs down in Southern Oregon is a certified organic farm (Demeter Group [Rudolph Steiner's Biodynamic system] and Oregon Tilth) and the specialize in medical plants. Most, if not all, have the properties that benefit human and most mammals and these same properties can be used by a gardener to be a better grower, plants feeding plants like it's always been.

There might be some plants that would work in your area and at the very least the list of plants, seeds, roots, etc. that they offer is a fun read. These are very honorable people and you'll be impressed at the low prices - again certified organic by 2 of the strictest organizations authorized by USDA

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Nice thread, folks. Twenty nine pages in fourteen days.

I usually avoid threads with organic in the title, and have changed my tune in just a few hours of reading.

A few questions for those in the know:

1. How is the cation exchange taking place as described here different from what happens in my hydro/coco with mineral salts? Still exchanging an H+ for the needed cation if it is available?

2. Does anyone here use coco in their soil? I read the thread quickly, and didn't catch it if anyone does.

3. Do I understand correctly that folks here are making compost outdoors and using it in a mix for indoor plants?

thanks

g_m

gregor_mendel

Greetings! Mendelian Inheritance!

Here's the best answers I can offer:

1. Way over my head - I know less than nothing

2. When I first started mixing my own soil from the ground up (vs. trying to fix the bagged soils), I started using Sunshine Organic Growers Mix which is from the Sunshine Mix #x that you've seen discussed.

That 'base' was 40% Sphagnum peat moss, 30% organic Coir (Sri Lanka brown), 10% Perlite, 10% Pumice & 10% 'approved' Vermiculite. The mix is sprayed with an organic Yucca extract (wetting agent) and it is a very fine framework to build a soil by adding humus and rock dusts.

Organic coir is easily sourced in this area from 2 sources, Sunshine 'Just Coir' (brand name) and a semi-private product from Teufel Nursery (over 130 years old). Both of these coir products are from Sri Lanka and when I've helped other nurseries and to a far less extent, MMJ growers (life is pretty short), and given how they intended to run their watering system, soil mix, etc. I have recommended using coir in a range between 20 - 25% (final aggregate total).

I'm ambivalent on coir. I don't feel it would work as a total replacement for Sphagnum peat moss for my gardens but it's a non-issue.

3. Yes - thermal compost, properly made and cured, is second only to worm castings in a container garden. I make compost and then run it through the worm bins and take a stellar material and jack it up about 300% with absolutely no effort on my part - worms don't sleep, they don't rest - basically they eat, drop a cocoon every day, eat some more and have more sex (such as it is).

That's what I knows about dat......

CC

 

[Gascanastan]

I TRY to have a 50/50 ratio on the coir to peat....as I continue to build and recycle the soil...I never put more coco in the re-amend...it's a 1 time thing for my method.

 

[gregor_mendel]

GC and CC

Fast and friendly service around here. Thanks!

Point of clarification: Is coir suggested as part oF the peat portion, or part of the drainage amendment portion?

Also, it seems like perlite has lost favor as a drainage amendment lately, but I have it laying around. Is is so bad as to ignore the fact that I have it, and find something else, or just run with it this time, and use the other choices next time/ upon recycling?

I don't like it myself, but only because it does't stay put.

To others, as it seems neither of you live in Colorado:

I live on the western slope. What do you gather in the local great outdoors for your mix?

g_m

 

[Gascanastan]

Coir for the peat portion.

If you have perlite use it...but pumice is better....or lava rock...or rice hulls..

I collect a variety of soils,clay and forest debris/humic material from my local region. Take a look at the plants growing in an area where you may want to collect a certain material..are they healthy? Also gather material responsibly...I don't leave gaping holes under ancient trees if you catch my drift...

 

[spurrsbrotha]

Coir for the peat portion.

If you have perlite use it...but pumice is better....or lava rock...or rice hulls..

I collect a variety of soils,clay and forest debris/humic material from my local region. Take a look at the plants growing in an area you may want to collect a certain material..are they healthy? Also gather material responsibly...I don't leave gaping holes under ancient trees if you catch my drift...

Nor tiny holes.

One thing to cash in on is if you know a forest/grass/wild area is slated for development/rape get in there with your truck and shovel.

 

[gregor_mendel]

One thing to cash in on is if you know a forest/grass/wild area is slated for development/rape get in there with your truck and shovel.

Why wasn't this thread around when I was a surveyor?

I used to pick feral asparagus, and a mushroom I can't remember the name of.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

gregor

I don't like it myself, but only because it does't stay put

Perfect summation. Then there's the dust factor and once it spills you're screwed.

I prefer using rice hulls, pumice and then lava rock but I'm not anal about one over the other. If I didn't do a good job on planning and I'm out of one or two then I use the third. I go by feel and the look and adjust the aeration component accordingly - ain't rocket science.

I haven't used this compost personally but I have a close friend who lives where it's available and he raves about it - BuffaLoam. Another person that I've been helping switch from garden stores to doing his own thing bought this and made a soil and he's very happy with the health and growth rates with his new program.

Trust but verify with others where it's available.

You should be able to find Yarrow and Stinging Nettles in your part of the world.

Stinging Nettles = you could use this plant alone to feed your plants and it would be the best garden you've experienced regardless of the plants involved

Yarrow = Bio-stimulant and a slew of other benefits. Vastly overlooked by even hardcore organic terrorists but if you used it a single time it would become a standard plant in your garden program. I promise you that one.

Horsetail ferns = everything - this plant will be found in wet(ter) areas, i.e. it won't be out in an open field but usually in marsh areas around lakes, streams, etc. A 'nute' powerhouse almost unrivaled except for Comfrey - perhaps.

There's a few native plants that you might be able to find without risking your life. On the Nettles you'll probably want to bring some leather gloves and a jug of Aloe vera juice - the juice will immediately remove the sting from your skin.

HTH

CC

 

[Gascanastan]

It seems silly to be 'buying' soil in a bag now that I've broken free from the high times dro-store pardigm....pretty effective brainwashing from that end of things.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Target rich environment - low hanging fruit

 

[mofeta]

What shocked me the first few times I used Aloe vera for rooting cuttings was the sheer amount of root sites and then the rate which they pushed out from the stalk.

Good old salicylic acid!


Horizon- One of my favorite businesses! Richo and Maishe are tops in my book. My dad was a friend of Michael Moore (the herbalist, not the filmmaker) and he put us on to them.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I've been an active member of Oregon Tilth that's how I was introduced to them and their contribution to the organic/sustainable farming landscape in Oregon.

The real deal......

 

[Scrappy4]

I just want to bring leaf mold into this soil building thread, mostly because it is a mainstay for my organic soil. I have never used coco' but I suspect it might act like leaf mold in a soil because they both are high in wood fiber. Anyway here is a brief write up on leaf mold...scrappy


Leaf mold is an excellent, free soil amendment. It is easy to make, simple to use, and has a huge impact on soil health.

What is Leaf Mold?

Leaf mold is the result of letting leaves sit and decompose over time. It is dark brown to black, has a pleasant earthy aroma and a crumbly texture, much like compost. In fact, leaf mold is just that: composted leaves. Instead of adding a bunch of organic matter to a pile, you just use leaves.

Benefits of Leaf Mold

You may be wondering why you shouldn't just make compost. Why bother making a separate pile just for leaves? The answer is that while compost is wonderful for improving soil texture and fertility, leaf mold is far superior as a soil amendment. It doesn't provide much in the way of nutrition, so you will still need to add compost or other organic fertilizers to increase fertility. Leaf mold is essentially a soil conditioner. It increases the water retention of soils. According to some university studies, the addition of leaf mold increased water retention in soils by over 50%. Leaf mold also improves soil structure and provides a fantastic habitat for soil life, including earthworms and beneficial bacteria.

How to Make Leaf Mold

There are two popular ways to make leaf mold, and both are ridiculously simple. The one thing you'll need to keep in mind is that leaf mold doesn't happen overnight. Leaves are basically all carbon, which takes a lot longer to break down than nitrogen-rich materials such as grass clippings. The decomposition process for leaves takes at least six to twelve months. The good news is that it's basically six to twelve months with very little work on the gardener's part.

The first method of making leaf mold consists of either piling your leaves in a corner of the yard or into a wood or wire bin. The pile or bin should be at least three feet wide and tall. Pile up your leaves, and thoroughly dampen the entire pile. Let it sit, checking the moisture level occasionally during dry periods and adding water if necessary.

The second method of making leaf mold requires a large plastic garbage bag. Fill the bag with leaves and moisten them. Seal the bag and then cut some holes or slits in the bag for air flow. Let it sit. Check the bag every month or two for moisture, and add water if the leaves are dry.

After six months to a year, you will have finished leaf mold. Impatient? There are a couple of things you can do to speed up the process:

Before adding leaves to your pile or bag, run over them a couple of times with your lawn mower. Smaller pieces will decompose more quickly.
Use a shovel or garden fork to turn your leaf pile every few weeks. If you are using the plastic bag method, just turn it over or give it a firm shake. This will introduce air into the process, which speeds decomposition.
If you are using the pile or bin method, cover your pile with a plastic tarp. This will keep the leaves more consistently moist and warm
How to Use Leaf Mold

Leaf mold has several uses in the garden. You can dig or till it into garden beds to improve soil structure and water retention. You can use it as mulch in perennial beds or vegetable gardens. It's also fabulous in containers, due to its water retaining abilities.

Leaf mold is simple, free, and effective. If you're lucky enough to have a tree or two (or ten) on your property, you've got everything you need to make great garden soil.

http://organicgardening.about.com/od/compost/a/LeafMold.htm

 

[ClackamasCootz]

My bad - yeah you definitely want leaf mold

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Yeah the thing i really like about leaf mold and (real)compost in general is its ability to hold onto moisture and to spread moisture through a dry mix. For example a soil bed that is repelling water and refuses to hydrate or a indoor soil mix that got too dry.

The compost will work so much better than water crystals, especially under a good layer of mulch and with a wee dash of kelp powder in the watering can.