Living organic soil from start through recycling

[SeaMaiden]

but arnt humic substances capable of taking out some of the cal and mag ions that would make water "hard"?

peat has a softening effect in water?

In my direct experience using it as a filtration media, absolutely it does.

If the water hardness is CaCO3 you can make it available in water by acidifying the water. For example if you use nitric acid the reaction would be:

CaCO3 + 2HNO3 = Ca(NO3)2 + H2O + CO2

by the time you lower the pH to 4.5 it all would become available. So if you don't want that free Ca leave your water pH above 7

sorry about that...can't help myself sometimes

So it IS possible to 'break' the molecule and make that Ca available! Does it matter which acid you use..? For example, my recipe for disaster involves freezing acetic acid three times in order to distill or concentrate it (to what acidity at the final extraction I don't yet know). Assuming it's sufficiently acid enough, what you're suggesting is that I can break the CO3 bond with Ca (or Mg..?) which would make all this Ca I think is in the water column available for plant uptake.

I'll have to keep this stuff away from Black Chasm.

 

[rrog]

But if we keep the pH up, the Ca+ stays locked up, unless there's some other soil-based mechanism to free the Ca+

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Once again - strike up the band!

Acetic acid is a herbicide All. Day. Long.

Science is science. Chemistry is chemistry. Reality is reality.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I want to order the bock14, i'm assuming it'll grow back after snow/cold season?

Mulch with a quality straw or hay before the first frost. Regardless - you can not kill this plant once it's established. Ever. Never.

Local price for removal of an established Bocking 14 plant > $350.00 with no guarantees

 

[supermanlives]

damn thats alot for a focking plant removal

 

[ClackamasCootz]

15' roots - deeper than most fruit trees

 

[ClackamasCootz]

FYI for a couple items in this thread, for a pure aloe vera "juice" available @ the retail level, I found a brand @ Clarks nutrition center in Loma Linda CA called "Georges" (when I get back to the house I'll look at the label and post exactly what it is and if they have a website) it's organic and actually 100% aloe, no sodium benzoate/citric acid etc. and the ladies absolutely loved their first foliar of it.

BlueJayWay

Let me address that specific product for a minute of your time. This product was the 2nd Aloe vera product that I used and continued to use for several months.

What their extraction method involves is to remove the polysaccharides from the juice which along with Benzoic acid causes the almost instant fermenting that takes place without using a preservative after extraction.

So the question that I had (have) was this: Since this compound group is an important compound in other soil amendments such as Chitin in lobster, shrimp and crab shells, does the removal affect the benefit?

I don't have an answer to that one and have been unable to find anything one way or the other. Even at the agriculture and horticulture sites in Australia where the use of Aloe vera is a standard material I came up empty-handed.

That's all I know about that - Forrest Clackamas Gump

 

[SeaMaiden]

Once again - strike up the band!

Acetic acid is a herbicide All. Day. Long.

Science is science. Chemistry is chemistry. Reality is reality.

Perception is reality. But that's not that makes this awesome. I've got some bull thistle coming up *again* that I can't quite get down to, but I can shoot some of this stuff at 'em. In fact, I have a whole bunch of thick, persistent weeds coming up that I need to control but am not able to wrangle the big weedeater. I won't use Round-Up and it is the wrong time of year to begin using flame-weeding.

I want to order the bock14, i'm assuming it'll grow back after snow/cold season?

Mulch with a quality straw or hay before the first frost. Regardless - you can not kill this plant once it's established. Ever. Never.

Local price for removal of an established Bocking 14 plant > $350.00 with no guarantees

Why wouldn't the acetic acid work here? How about for persistent berry brambles? Poison oak? Now THAT stuff is persistent.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Acetic acid as found in what is sold as 'horticulture vinegar' kills everything above the soil line because it will not fall deep enough into the soil to kill the roots.

However if one is persistent you could drench the soil and kill the roots.

The reason that it would not kill the Bocking 14 plant is that unless you can get that acid down at least 5 feet in sufficient quantities the plant will push upward and re-establish itself.

The Bocking 14 roots I planted 15 months back have roots just below the crown that are 2" in diameter - at the soil surface.

"plan your work - work your plan" on site selection

 

[SeaMaiden]

I chose directly underneath a rather old pine, where little else but native weeds grow, as my site selection. Part of the reason why I chose it is because the dog and cats like to take a shortcut through it, and I've read of comfrey's persistence, figured it, the pine and the animals should be a happy union, plus I won't care so much as the dog mows it down running in her excitement.

I really, seriously detest the yellow star and bull thistles.

 

[BlueJayWay]

"What their extraction method involves is to remove the polysaccharides from the juice which along with Benzoic acid causes the almost instant fermenting that takes place without using a preservative after extraction.

So the question that I had (have) was this: Since this compound group is an important compound in other soil amendments such as Chitin in lobster, shrimp and crab shells, does the removal affect the benefit?"

Well hell, polysaccharides is not what we want removed, geez! I was certainly ignoring the little voice in my head that said "how does this one product not need a preservative while the 20 others do?" Thanks for bringing that to attention, i'll dig into it further to see if i can come up with anything.

(i also found dried bagged organic nettle/alfalfa etc. @ the nutrition center)

And some awesome rice hulls @ the home brew store! $30 #50 bag.

 

[SeaMaiden]

BlueJay, what's that in cubic feet? I get mine from the local feed shop, 6'cu@$8/bale, unless it's on sale.

 

[BlueJayWay]

compressed cuF in that bale? i haven't picked up the #50 bag yet, had to order it, for $1.50/lb i got 20 1lb bags uncompressed i would say that 10lbs is = to size of 1cuF bag of potting soil

 

[Gascanastan]

How can I post something as useful as the info. flying out of here....

Well for re-amending 1 cubic foot of recycled soil (6.43 dry US gallons) with nothing fancy....try this.

2 cups fish bone meal every other recycle for @ least 5 cycles...THEN 2 cups fish bone every 3 to 4 cycles... considering that the soil the gardener is 'building' has been having humic sources such as EWC and/or compost added when re-amending as well.

Fish bone meal takes @ least 4 or longer months to break down and be consumed by soil organisms before needing to replace it.

1 - 2 cups fish meal every cycle depending upon other high nitrogen sources added (such as comfrey,nettle,crab shell,alfalfa,and other things like neem seed meal) and what the plants looked like as far as premature N loss before flowering is done each cycle.

Of course some types have genetic signals that start yellowing on a natural level and could be confused with nitrogen loss...AKA senescence.

1 1/2 cups Acadian kelp meal every re-amend
Kelp kelp kelp kelp kelp kelp!!!!!!!

TO x BMR (The One x Blue Moon Rocks)
Growing in a third round no-till pot from soil that's been recycled for 3 years and counting....mother for the line...so far...seems to be gaining popularity in the real world from what I'm hearing on shakedown st. Ain't she looking all pertty photo-shopped out and such...golly!

 

[YosemiteSam]

First of all thanks DARCMIND.

Secondly here comes possibly the dumbest question I have ever ask...or not, it remains to be seen. What is the function of peat in these mixes? Is it mostly a particle size distribution thing...between the fine humus and coarse drainage amendments (along with the cec of course).

I have a buddy that dropped a seed in his compost pile...best looking plant either one of us are growing.

Thirdly, I fileted me some aloe and made a foliar spray. Tested it on one plant this morning. There was that brief droop period that comes from any foliar and then the leaves began to pray. I always find myself wondering if that is good or bad...seems to me if you want maximum photosynthesis you need to get the leaves flat to the light source...maximize surface area.

I will take a look tomorrow morning and probably spray the rest.

I also got some comfrey tea brewing and some hungry plants that will need fed tomorrow or the next day

Anyways, thanks for this thread everyone.

 

[Gascanastan]

The leaves 'praying' is your positive growth sign...consider it a 'thank you' from the plant. This treatment only goes so far before it becomes overkill and ineffective.

I use peat because of it's particle size,water holding capabilities,it's ability to harbor and maintain healthy fungi and bacteria,and the excellent 'bulking' up of the soil ....the volume it creates....and I'm open to any other reasons I haven't known or know of.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Secondly here comes possibly the dumbest question I have ever ask...or not, it remains to be seen. What is the function of peat in these mixes? Is it mostly a particle size distribution thing...between the fine humus and coarse drainage amendments (along with the cec of course).

YS

Peat moss, per se, is not what you want to use. Sphagnum pear moss is the premier one. The acidity issues are definitely driven by peat moss-based mixes. No question about that.

Sphagnum does do everything that you described but equally important is the 'the good stuff' is biologically alive. It is not an inert material by any definition.

Microbeman run a test comparing Canadian Sphagnum peat moss vs. Alaska Magic (brand name - others of this very same product are Alaska Magic, Alaska Humus, GO Ancient Forest, Denali Gold - whew!)

At the link are videos showing the microbial activity in these products and I think that you'll be well served by watching them and listening to him describe what you're seeing.

Definitely not an inert or useless component in a potting soil.

HTH

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

BlueJayWay

Do you have any micro-breweries in your part of the world? Check with them for spent rice hulls which are used at some point of the filtering process - use once and toss for them.

Cheap enough.........

 

[all natural]

Hey CC I clicked the link for Portland Pottery and it says they are in Maine? I couldnt find a place called Portland Pottery in Portland OR on google maps.

 

[all natural]

I just called a place called Georgie's and they sell bentonite clay for 4.60 for 5 lbs. And i think he said 50 lbs for 17 dollars.