Let's talk coco slabs with drippers

[gaiusmarius]

Thanks for the response 'G. Since that post I have made a run with a much higher number of plants, and replaced the 2X600 setup with a 1000 on a mover over the same area. Also added pearlite to the mix at about 30%. Slightly less frequent watering led to the same yield per plant...so I got more with less watts and more plants.

i went through a phase of using a light rail too, i had a 400 and a 600 hung on it and they would move back and forth. problem was that the buds in the middle got twice the light exposure as the ones on either end, making for uneven results and very skimpy buds at the edges. i imagine a round light rail would be much better. glad to hear you are happy with it though. my space is generally some what limited and i end up wanting to make the most of the available space.

I am beginning to think that my yield will increase with more veg time now...current run in the same area with much bigger plants and stepped back the numbers again. I will report results soon...

i'm no expert on trees, but you tend to get the best results with vertical bulbs if tree growing. at least you are running 1000 watt that can penetrate the canopy quite far. i seem to find the over all numbers better if i don't work with trees as it wastes me a lot of time vegging.

I will also be using the 2X600 setup with same plant numbers now side by side with the dripper table setup...only I will be hand watering this first batch until I get another system built.

sounds good, hope you can share with us

[/quote]In regards to your most recent advice to me, about ppm differences between hand watering to waste vs. recirculating drip, could you please expand on that topic? I have been going without a ppm meter so far and have been thinking about purchasing one. Basically I have just been reading the plants and using general guidelines on the bottles, towards the lower end of concentrations. When I add to my res, I just mix up the new amount of nutrients and pour them in (just a 12 gal res). Do you use a higher ppm with the drip system or hand watering?[/quote]

when hand watering you can afford to give higher ec levels once in a while, but on the whole you have to remember that the drier your medium (coco coir) is allowed to get in between waterings the more the left over salts will get concentrated in the medium as the water evaporates. on the whole it seems to depend on your strain more then anything else how much fert you can give. but with a high nute tolerant strain you can give higher nute levels more regularly without worrying too much about nute burn when using automated watering. as the automated watering, with a bit of run off, will not allow your coco to ever get so dry as to really push those ec levels up too much.

as for the meter yes buy one, it will give you peace of mind knowing what you are giving them, also it allows you to learn which plants like what kind of ec levels and how it gets effected by the run off, if you let it back in the tank. also just for the knowledge of what the level is in your run off. i really find both ph and ec/ppm meters to be a must for a coco setup with recirculation specially.

Another question: Has anyone had experience with using the Pure Blend Pro line with coco? I had been using the SOIL bloom formula exclusively as my base, and recently saw that they call to use the NORMAL bloom until around 3-4 weeks till harvest before switching to the SOIL formula. Also, it recommends using quite a bit lower concentration of the SOIL at this time than the general 30-45 it said on the old bottles of this (the new ones have a more extensive nutrient chart). I am experimenting now with using both blooms to see if there is a difference.

Aaand...one more current pondering...

I have always been using the product gravity around 3 weeks from finish and it seems to crystal the hell out of the product. So I also acquired some bushmaster and snowstorm ultra. I have been running the snowstorm this time through the entire bloom cycle, but was wondering if you had any experience with running it for veg too as it might mean on the bottle? Also, it appears as gravity has changed its instructions and concentrations since the last time I used it, burning the hell out of a few plants. It recommends way lower amounts and specifically not to use in coco, but to apply foliar. The question I have is when I should start applying this as it says something about spraying the plants when they are 4" tall occasionally vs. during the first week of flower as I did last time.

'G...your da man when it comes to helpful information and sorry if I overloaded you. I have used tons of your information to really improve things and appreciate your time man. I have a masters degree in horticulture, specifically production, and with this topic I have been fascinated and learned so much through these threads.

Peace.

sorry can't help you with the last parts of your question, haven't used any of those products, whats gravity for again?. wow i bet you know a lot more of the reasons why things are as they are with indoor growing then, what with your degree and all. with me it's all been learning by doing. sure i read up on other systems, but i will always tell people when my info is theoretical. my slab info is based 100% on personal experience.

thanks for the kind words, it's my pleasure to share what i know.

 

[icside]

Gaius, looks like drippers are working pretty well, thanks for your help with your methods. I'm curious about people who've done it on bigger pots (like 3-5 gal).... and if they're able to get the nutes distributed all over... that and about the lessened (I would think) O2 exchange from not doing the nute dosing in one dump.... thoughts

 

[gaiusmarius]

if i was using big pots, i'd use 2 or 3 drip spikes per plant, just to make sure it's getting enough water spreading out a bit in the pot. but in the end the whole point of drip feeding and coco is not to have to have tons of medium for the plants to grow in.

growing hydroponically in coco is a lot different to growing normally in coco. hydroponically you don't need much coco per plant as long as you feed multiple times in the lights on phase. while growing normally in coco, just like the name says follows most of the normal rules. i.e. the bigger the pot the bigger the root mass equals the bigger the yield. hence with that system people water once a day or even every 2 days. the results from both methods are wicked as long as one is doing it right, but the big advantage imo is the full automation plus the fact that hydroponically i can get away with using a few liters of coco per big 1 meter plant, plus i can use the same coco for multiple runs. for someone who has a lot of plants it makes much more sense to run the coco hydro style, so much less lugging involved

 

[icside]

ah, ok, thanks Gaius. time to go to lowe's again.....

 

[WEDDY]

If you don't have a dripper system, you need one! life becomes so much easier when you need too feed.. and it takes a very lil time to set it up... and 'FYI' Home Depot has pumps for a good price and they last a long time. I have gone through 2 pumps I've puchased at the Hydro store and both lasted no longer then 2 months, and they were $$$...just make sure the pump is the right size you need.

**And make sure you get the right dripper heads for the amount of water flow your trying to feed your plants.

 

[fred b]

... also make sure you use a 1 way valve to stop the main line emptying every time the pump turns off.

hey gaius, thanks for this very informative thread!

i was wondering, why do you recommend a 1 way valve?
I had one in my old dripper system and always wondered what's the point in a dripper system. I figured that in a dripper system I wouldn't want the water to stay in the black hose and become more and more salty but instead run back into the res.

I still have that one way valving lying around in case, but I haven't noticed any disadvantages yet.

greets
fred b.

 

[gaiusmarius]

i guess it depends on the size of your table. if it takes a minute for all the hoses on the table are full and all the drippers start running then you have uneven watering for that first minute. i don't see any reason for the water to get more salty in the lines.

when i first built this setup i copied it from a place i was working at which had 11 meter long tables, without the one way valve the whole system takes too long to fill up every time. this would mean some odd drippers at the ends would sometimes only start dripping a minute before the whole system shuts off. but a small setup could get away without it i suppose, it just means that as soon as the timer turns the pump on all the drippers start running nearly at the same time.

 

[fred b]

oh i see! so the one way valve is used to build up the base pressure for the pressurevavlves quickly. i think ive actually seen a few drippers dripping a few seconds later than others once the pump starts. so adding the one way valve might fix that ...
thanks for the answer gaius!

greets
fred b.

edit:
actually when I think about it, I do have one way valves for each dripper actually. 8liters/hour valves for 8 drippers. hmm i might play around with the big one way valve after this run

 

[gaiusmarius]

hey gaius, thanks for this very informative thread!

i was wondering, why do you recommend a 1 way valve?
I had one in my old dripper system and always wondered what's the point in a dripper system. I figured that in a dripper system I wouldn't want the water to stay in the black hose and become more and more salty but instead run back into the res.

I still have that one way valving lying around in case, but I haven't noticed any disadvantages yet.

greets
fred b.

the one way valve is good to make sure you get an even flow on all drippers at the same time. depending how long your table is it can take quite a while for the pump to fill the black hose and the drippers. with a small table it won't matter so much.

 

[gaiusmarius]

oh i see! so the one way valve is used to build up the base pressure for the pressurevavlves quickly. i think ive actually seen a few drippers dripping a few seconds later than others once the pump starts. so adding the one way valve might fix that ...
thanks for the answer gaius!

greets
fred b.

edit:
actually when I think about it, I do have one way valves for each dripper actually. 8liters/hour valves for 8 drippers. hmm i might play around with the big one way valve after this run

yes that's the idea, but i must say if it's only a few seconds of difference it will make no difference. it's when you have 5 or more meters of hose, that it starts to make quite a bit of difference.

don't know why i re answered the question, i missed my last answer some how, lol.

all the best

 

[Mob Barley420]

Gm, you're the man! Thank you for elucidating the largely unspoken cocoslab dropper technique. Are there any recomendations for online filters for a 4 bar setup? I'm installing a TFDW(topfeed drain2waste) coco slab system to save water because E&F with rockwool, although the growth is explosive, hurts our planet and uses entirely 2 much water. I've been using 100gallons ~380L a week for a 4x8 e&f for 32 beautiful purple dreams. Do you think I could use a lot less water your method? How slanted does a table need to be? 2% grade? Do you ever have Cal/Mg defic running only A&B+Rhizo, Pk, Zyme? Thanksfor any feedback fellas. Peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

set it up so you cen recirculate the nutrient solution during the veg phase at least, that will also save water and makes no difference to the plants. if you can, make sure to get a good quality filter, there is nothing more annoying then having to check drip lines for blocks. the so called Israeli Filter is very good as it's made to use in sandy soil.

 

[LIFEISGOOD]

How large of a plant will these slabs support? I know you mention meter tall plants. It seems like you would have to support anything bigger by hanging or tying the plants up from the ceiling.

Thanks

 

[sudo]

At first I want to thank all people involved in this thread sharing great info - especially gm.

The first run with coco slabs and automated drip system was great, and I am planning to enlarge my setup. In the actual run I run dtw but I thought when it comes to far larger amounts of plants it might be a good idea to consider recirc anyhow. I think the major advantage is the smaller amount of water you dissipate; I guess 5k watts will easily need approximately 150-200 litres a day. Another advantage is the saving of fertilizers of course when comparing to dtw.
But enough blabla, I thought if you go recirc on this scale wouldn't it be better to have only one big reservoir (~500L) in which you have 2 or 3 pumps delivering the nutrients via drippers to each channel of slabs? (so one pump for each channel but not one reservoir for each channel)
Has also anyone who runs recirc coco slab drip setup experience with those computers like tps hp2, which are constanly mesuring ph,EC and are even capable of adding Pk 13/14, ph+ and pH-?
I think they would make a great synergy with the idea of recirc, because you avoid those fluctuations in pH and EC ....

I hope I could make my ideas clear and some of you guys can give my some advice or recommendations ... I think its far easier to run dtw, but the idea of saving so much water and fertilizer without losing too much time for mesuring might be worth a try ...
?


And when it comes to pump the drain of each channel back to the big reservoir, which filters would you recommend to avoid clogging? Just a micron filter after the pump? Because i would collect the drain of each channel in extra reservoirs and then pump it back into the main res when all drain has collected via timers.

 

[gaiusmarius]

1 large tank has the advantage that its only 1 tank to fill and calibrate, also the large body of water will help keep ph and ec values stable. the one disadvantage is if you are running different strains you can't give different ec to different strains. but if you have no problems filling the space with all the same clones, 1 tank is best.

i like those fert controllers that measure ph and ec and add ferts water or ph minus as needed. the thing is they need regular maintenance too else they dont work as the probs get covered in slime and stop it measuring properly after a while if not cleaned regularly and re calibrated.

if i was you i would set up the room to be easy to switch from run to waste to recirculating. the first few weeks of a cycle it's really no problem to recirculate, but for the last 6 weeks it can be simpler to run to waste specially in a big set up.

also consider that the returning water will no have the same amounts of each nute as when it went in to the plants, so even if the computer sets the correct ec again you are no longer sure of the exact makeup of the nutrient solution. for sure it can be done, but if i was using a computer fert controller i'd run to waste, specially the last 6 weeks of 12/12. if using a big tank i'd recirculate as the water can be left to be nearly all used up before refilling and then you know its a fresh batch of nutes again.

 

[sudo]

also consider that the returning water will no have the same amounts of each nute as when it went in to the plants, so even if the computer sets the correct ec again you are no longer sure of the exact makeup of the nutrient solution. for sure it can be done, but if i was using a computer fert controller i'd run to waste, specially the last 6 weeks of 12/12. if using a big tank i'd recirculate as the water can be left to be nearly all used up before refilling and then you know its a fresh batch of nutes again.

Thanks for your answer.
I haven't really considered this, and it seems like a very good argument against recirc, because it may lead to certain deficiencies, although Ec is on a regular basis ....
I guess I will then try dtw at first without the fert computer and one tank for each channel ...

But the bigger the res, the more stable the pH throughout the day, right? So without the fert computer if I turn the pH down to 5.8 in the evening, it will - as far as the temperature stays the more or less same - go up to 6.0 or 6.1 till the next day due to the aeration.
In this thread was mentioned before that the optimum range of the nutrient solution resides between 5.7-6.2 pH, so this up and down of the pH through the day is not really a problem, or?

And gaius, do you regularily take probes of your medium to mesure pH and EC w distilled water, like they show in the canna coco video? I also measure EC of every runoff to have control over the system, and try to avoid more than 2.7 mS, but some people here state that the Ec of the runoff is not so important if you have enough runoff lol^^

thx

 

[efeldmaz]

Hey ! I'm so pumped on this thread! I'm planning on doing a coco set up as well.

My first question would be because coco is the happy medium should I bring my ppm's down from when I do Hydroponics? How often should I flush with strait water for salts if I'm using the regular GH green, red, pink line?

I am actually using the coco ready grow from botanicare, it says 4-6 water cycles a day.. so it seems the same as the slabs but there are additives to it as well. Should I make any adjustments for the ready grow over the slabs?

Last should I clean my new drip system out before i use it how if so how do I go about that?

THANK YOU!!!

 

[gaiusmarius]

Thanks for your answer.
I haven't really considered this, and it seems like a very good argument against recirc, because it may lead to certain deficiencies, although Ec is on a regular basis ....
I guess I will then try dtw at first without the fert computer and one tank for each channel ...

But the bigger the res, the more stable the pH throughout the day, right? So without the fert computer if I turn the pH down to 5.8 in the evening, it will - as far as the temperature stays the more or less same - go up to 6.0 or 6.1 till the next day due to the aeration.
In this thread was mentioned before that the optimum range of the nutrient solution resides between 5.7-6.2 pH, so this up and down of the pH through the day is not really a problem, or?

And gaius, do you regularily take probes of your medium to mesure pH and EC w distilled water, like they show in the canna coco video? I also measure EC of every runoff to have control over the system, and try to avoid more than 2.7 mS, but some people here state that the Ec of the runoff is not so important if you have enough runoff lol^^

thx

i find the ph in a tank of reasonable size 150lt+ will stabilize after the first few weeks of running. so at the beginning just reset the ph to 5.8 every time it goes to above 6.0 again. but no need to check it every day, if you check it 2x a week and correct it you'll be fine, later on you won't even have to check it except when you make a batch of nutes. that's if your water is used up in a week or so. of course it does no harm to check and adjust it more regularly, that's really up to you.

the returning ec level really doesn't seem to have any effect on the plants even if it reaches way above what you're feeding them. have seen setups with return ec values of 4.0 and the plants looked perfect with the 2.0 they were getting. personally i'm a firm recirculator. so to me a return ec thats way over my tank ec is not helpful as it will push up tank ec specially when the tank water level gets low.

i never bother taking probes of the coco anymore. its kinda second nature now to me what to do and when. although right now i'm running a hand watering cycle with some medium size plants from seeds, my next run will be with a table again with auto drip irrigation.

Hey ! I'm so pumped on this thread! I'm planning on doing a coco set up as well.

My first question would be because coco is the happy medium should I bring my ppm's down from when I do Hydroponics? How often should I flush with strait water for salts if I'm using the regular GH green, red, pink line?

I am actually using the coco ready grow from botanicare, it says 4-6 water cycles a day.. so it seems the same as the slabs but there are additives to it as well. Should I make any adjustments for the ready grow over the slabs?

Last should I clean my new drip system out before i use it how if so how do I go about that?

THANK YOU!!!

there is a thread in the stikes about using GH nutes in coco, personally i have never done it so will not coment, but that thread covers it really well:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=55683

to clean your drip system is a bit of a pain in a the ass, but you can soak them in some water with de calcifying product, just have to rins really really well after, but if they are really gunked up inside your best pet is to replace the spaghetti drip lines its not expensive for the hoses alone after all.

 

[cashmunny]

You know going way back to something you said earlier, that the Phosphorus evaporates from the rez if you use an airstone and raises the pH, I don't understand. I would think that Phosphorus being a dissolved mineral anion would stay in solution and water would evaporate making the solution more concentrated, just like boiling a pot dry.

Also, why no perlite?

 

[gaiusmarius]

well i'm not a chemist, in the case of the ph going up with air stones or circulation pumps, it's a matter of observing it happen. even a tank of nutes without pumps or air stones will experience a slow ph raising over time, even when pumps are off and no interaction with the plants takes place. hence my assumption that the ph minus is some how loosing its potency, or dissolving or evaporating.

perlit is an unnecessary additive for coco and just makes everything more work and more complicated with no measurable benefits.

peace