LED and BUD QUALITY

[Hammerhead]

When our grows are not $ driven we can do wonderous things. Always try to improve what you started with when breeding. Making the same chemotypes with different names is not improving. There are a ton of cheap seeds that are excellent quality. A high price doesnt mean quality.

These are what cost the most to grow here.
Electricity
Nutrients PH up/dwn
Medium

Lights are a 1x cost. Price isn't an issue as we can use very cheap lights to grow good weed..

 

[CocoNut 420]

Yeah I agree you don't need to spend a lot of money to get dank weed, or a lot of money on lights to grow it.

Skunk special 4 fems from female seeds Nl for £18.

I've spent many times that at sensi for skunk and been sorely disappointed more than once.

Star dog £15 bogof 10 pk, it was reeking, from dsc!

Lights...
I've got a number of lights ranging from cheap to budget 3k, 4k and 3k and 5k mixed
I think they all do well I'm not too fussy tbh.

Sannan chips 2.53lb total at harvest.

My room temps aren't great 16/24c but I'm happy enough with the growth rates all considered.

This is my current crop, half of it was re potted around Christmas day, the other half sown November 19th.
Ive pulled the plant at the back right it just wasn't with the program and I can't let it get in the way at the end.

I've sorta stopped looking at the thermometer it just upsets my happiness

 

[Ca++]

Hello @greyfader I hope all is well there.

they were grown using a mixture of breeders and lights, some bar crops and some 240w board crops, some bar lights with Samsung 301H and some with budget chips.
(iirc Sannan?)

The last picture was grown with straight 4k/660nm 720wfrom own member @dimodz

LED and BUD QUALITY

so, do i get the hot chick with it? if i had a cannabis culture museum i would want a phototron on display.

www.icmag.com

And seeds from blue star, star dream and blueberry lemon shake up.

Sanan are the brand we never heard of, but always wondered about.

SANAN Optoelectronics boasts 1,400 LED-related patents and produces approximately 19.72% of the LED chips in the world, including the ones that belong to the wavelength range 210-850 nm, which are used to encourage plant growth.

58% of the LEDs made in China, are Sanan. They even manufacture microdots for Samsung.
They are hitting it up the field. Rolls, Aston and Bentley all use them.

 

[CocoNut 420]

Sanan are the brand we never heard of, but always wondered about.

58% of the LEDs made in China, are Sanan. They even manufacture microdots for Samsung.
They are hitting it up the field. Rolls, Aston and Bentley all use them.

Thanks for that it's encouraging to hear, i feel like I've got a upmarket light now

So they're not terrible quality chips, i assumed they weren't great, I can't remember which ones they are but maybe 30/30s or 50/50?

It had breifly crossed my mind to try and find replacement strips for it with lm301s in them, but after thinking about it i couldn't possibly justify the cost, I've 2 other bar lights and 4x 3k/660nm boards with lm301s in them.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

When our grows are not $ driven we can do wonderous things. Always try to improve what you started with when breeding. Making the same chemotypes with different names is not improving. There are a ton of cheap seeds that are excellent quality. A high price doesnt mean quality.

These are what cost the most to grow here.
Electricity
Nutrients PH up/dwn
Medium

Lights are a 1x cost. Price isn't an issue as we can use very cheap lights to grow good weed..

u just gotta find that special seed.... best seed i ever found was 15 + years ago from nirvana - the seed was a buck, maybe two.... special lady indeed

 

[Ca++]

maybe 30/30s or 50/50?

Package sizes. It's a bit like buying shoes. The size comes first. Though it's not very interesting.

 

[Prawn Connery]

To a degree don't forget, better spectrum in the sky won't grow you a tail all of a sudden like it won't make bad genetics good.
You are born with a set of traits that they specifically change according to environment.
Environment won't remove or add any trait that is not already there.
There are too many stupid practices going on in the weed world, flushing, this light vs the other, curing for months to "enhance", buddy if your weed isn't fire after 7-10 days of drying no cure will make it any better

I agree more say led grown weed is better, I haven't smoked elite clones under them to compare, only shit weed that was also shit under HIDs, but people also claim a lot of other things which are complete nonsense so Im still on the fence.
Because the argument is always down to light is light no matter how it is formed, and according to what I'm seeing in my and other people grows, the genetics is mostly fucked up, not the light choice.

If I would approach this subject with ration, I would have used both of them, one for winter, one for summer, this is harnessing their pros.

Ah, sticking to the subject at hand, bud quality under leds, from what I see and taste, I don't like it.
Need to smoke some more, from better growers and strains most def, but that subject is also kinda silly, its like better or worse conditions, does it matter for the effect ? I've grown shitty good plants and good shitty plants, and if the seed had the right genetics, the effect was there always..

I would have to disagree with at least some of this.

Environmental factors influence how genetics are expressed, and in some cases cause DNA to mutant to form entirely new genetics. That's pretty much how we all evolved – genetic expression and mutation over billions of years as the environment around us changed.

Environment can most certainly ruin "good" genetics or make the most of "bad" genetics.

Even the same genetics will express differently when grown at different times of year indoors under slightly different conditions (temperature, humidity), let alone under different lights.

You are correct that "genetics is king", but it is our job as growers to get the most out of those genetics. Or to recognise which genetics are best suited to which environment.

For example, some of the best genetics out there (IMO) are the old haze lines, but not all growers can maintain a healthy plant for 12+ weeks of flower, and it is very easy to ruin the end result.

Curing definitely makes a difference. I couldn't count the number of times I've harvested a plant and thought it was a bit middling but then revisited it after a cure to find that, in fact, it was really quite nice. I never judge a particular plant fully until I have jarred it for at least a month.

Spectrum is not the issue, if hps grow massive killer trees, the subject of it is irrelevant and has almost no meaning.
Light, and as much of it as possible, within the par or lm range (whatever word you like), your good to go.

I'm sorry, but this is very bad advice. Too much light is detrimental – as we see time and time again with new growers who try to reconcile how less than 400W of LED can rival a 600W HPS.

And spectrum most certainly makes a difference to growth and quality. You try growing a plant under a pure green light or a pure red light or a pure blue light – all of which are within the PAR range – and see how you go.

Indeed, the trouble with a lot of cheap copycat LEDs is they have too much blue in them which can stress plants at even moderate light levels.

There are many trials out there showing differences in growth and quality simply due to a change in spectrum.

The more plants you grow, the more you notice the differences. Yes, you can grow under all sorts of different lights – and many of today's LED fixtures are much of a muchness when it comes to spectrum – but there are differences in the end product.

Ah, sticking to the subject at hand, bud quality under leds, from what I see and taste, I don't like it.

See? You said it yourself! After telling us all light and spectrum doesn't make a difference, you just admitted you don't like LED weed.

So clearly there is a difference – no matter what your particular taste.

 

[Prawn Connery]

What do we give to these people?

Double Pump, MoFo

Bam, Bam. And not the Flintstones style one. 440&465 from this one, maybe.

Back to the gangster channel..

Bridgelux always have nice phosphors, and the dual-die Thrive series are some of the best stand-alone midpower (and other) LEDs out there IMO.

The only problem with these types of packages is efficiency.

Here are some Carotinoids we perhaps don't know

Lutein is yellow, but is found in leafy greens. I think it's off topic
Zeaxanthin is the pigment that gives paprika, corn and saffron it's colour. It's a bit different to what we see
Lycopene is a tetraterpene and a carotene. It's bright red and found in tomatoes and other red fruits and vegetables.


Lycopene is a contender, for the carotene I'm dreaming of.

I really need to do some proper growing...

There are scientific papers on the "true" colour of chlorophyl – arguing it is much bluer than most absorption curves show – due to the use of solvents in measuring pigments.

But if you want to get an idea of what a pigment looks like, you need to look at its complimentary colour.

Take any colour, draw a line through the middle of the white spot in the middle, and the colour on the other side is the complimentary pigment. Carotenoids that express as orange for example, absorb cyan in the 480-490nm range.

Or use a colour wheel and trace a line through the middle. Not perfect, but near enough.

 

[Prawn Connery]

it's not the substrate type in a soilless culture method that causes high-speed growth as long as the mechanical characteristics are correct for your watering timing.

the air-filled porosity and the total water-holding capacity of any soilless substrate will determine the frequency and volume of each watering event.

keeping in mind that the greater the frequency of watering the faster the plants' metabolism will be as long as the water is not permanently present in the container.

this is because the mechanical act of watering corrects ec and ph, and causes the exchange of gases in the rootzone, refreshing them. it also disrupts the water retention curve on every pass. the water retention curve is the amount of water held at different levels in the container after a watering event, graded by gravity. disrupting the retention curve causes more of the pot's space to become fully occupied by roots.

how the grower handles this issue of matching watering frequency to the mechanical properties of the substrate greatly influences metabolic rate. then combine this set of variables to the variables presented by the plants' environment. factors like heat and humidity also affect the metabolic rate.

now combine all of these variables with the different choices of lighting and you get an idea of why some people are getting great results with LEDs and some aren't.

in a lot of cases it's not the lights, it's the grower.

That is why all of these subjective reports on the efficacy of a type of lighting don't carry much weight.

This is an excellent post. Especially the bit about watering frequency.

Whenever I see someone hand-watering in coco, I always try to convince them to set up an automatic watering system. I water my plants up to six times a 12-hour cycle (no watering during lights-off).

 

[Crooked8]

Cmon man! liiiighten up a bit, it's talk about a light

I loves ya man, not as much as you love Bugbee but...



Me too, even when i ran them in summer with 30c temps.



No problem in your environment, you want little to no side branching, tall columnar plants which i believe leds in my cold room promote vs more branchier hid grown plants.

I want side branching for scrog/sog

but If you want further reading the title of the studies i've been reading are

Promoter replacement of ANT1 induces anthocyanin accumulation and triggers the shade avoidance response through developmental, physiological and metabolic reprogramming in tomato​

and

Effect of Red and Blue Light on Anthocyanin Accumulation and Differential Gene Expression in Strawberry​

Personally i find side branching easier to achieve with leds. Our room is branchy as hell! Thank you for the studies to check out.

 

[greyfader]

This is an excellent post. Especially the bit about watering frequency.

Whenever I see someone hand-watering in coco, I always try to convince them to set up an automatic watering system. I water my plants up to six times a 12-hour cycle (no watering during lights-off).

thank you! these were grown in recirculating coco. they were in 3.5 gal ppk buckets and received approx 1/2 gal every 2 hours 24/7. as you know there is no way to water coco like that unless you mechanically drain the perched water table from the container after each fertigation event. this is the essence of the PPK system.

draining all standing water immediately after each event allows you to radically increase the frequency of events. this, in turn, maintains the root zone in a nearly ideal interface of water, nutrients, air, and roots throughout the life of the plant.

it is not watering the plant but rather watering the medium to keep it within an ideal band of parameters.

this can only be done economically by recirculating the solution.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

I would have to disagree with at least some of this.

Environmental factors influence how genetics are expressed, and in some cases cause DNA to mutant to form entirely new genetics. That's pretty much how we all evolved – genetic expression and mutation over billions of years as the environment around us changed.

Environment can most certainly ruin "good" genetics or make the most of "bad" genetics.

Your ramblings about evolution have been proven wrong many times prawn, don't hold to a dying faith, evolution is a lie.
Environment will influence your dna and traits again to a degree, which is very small degree.
Billions of years you say ? Funny, we still look and have the same limbs, nothing changed, still 5 fingers not 4 or 6, in siberia and in the hottest desert, so no, environment won't change you or evolve you, you are born with what you are born, and that's it, your skin will be black if you hang out in africa all day, but it's still skin ! Like everyone else.

Environment can't make genetics good or worse, it's not environment to decide, it's the seed itself and his heritage.
Sure, I agree, in different conditions you will see slight variation, but a kush strain won't be berry all of sudden in different environment, this is just silly.

Even the same genetics will express differently when grown at different times of year indoors under slightly different conditions (temperature, humidity), let alone under different lights.

You are correct that "genetics is king", but it is our job as growers to get the most out of those genetics. Or to recognise which genetics are best suited to which environment.

The only way is the smoke them, it won't matter how able are you, if it's good it will be good even if you mess it up (the smoke)

For example, some of the best genetics out there (IMO) are the old haze lines, but not all growers can maintain a healthy plant for 12+ weeks of flower, and it is very easy to ruin the end result.

Curing definitely makes a difference. I couldn't count the number of times I've harvested a plant and thought it was a bit middling but then revisited it after a cure to find that, in fact, it was really quite nice. I never judge a particular plant fully until I have jarred it for at least a month.

It makes, if you have something good, if it's shit no curing will help, so you cure for a month so the shit will be less shit ? Nice.

I'm sorry, but this is very bad advice. Too much light is detrimental – as we see time and time again with new growers who try to reconcile how less than 400W of LED can rival a 600W HPS.

Too much light is a myth, in nature this phenoma is non existent, only in tents where heat burns plants and people think it's the light haha, I work with cool tubes and put them sometimes 1 inch from the plants, no burning, weird !

And spectrum most certainly makes a difference to growth and quality. You try growing a plant under a pure green light or a pure red light or a pure blue light – all of which are within the PAR range – and see how you go.

Really ? So all this time people grew in hps bulbs winning cups pulling dank is no good indeed, gotta have spectrum...

Indeed, the trouble with a lot of cheap copycat LEDs is they have too much blue in them which can stress plants at even moderate light levels.

There are many trials out there showing differences in growth and quality simply due to a change in spectrum.

The more plants you grow, the more you notice the differences. Yes, you can grow under all sorts of different lights – and many of today's LED fixtures are much of a muchness when it comes to spectrum – but there are differences in the end product.


See? You said it yourself! After telling us all light and spectrum doesn't make a difference, you just admitted you don't like LED weed.

The more it should suggest to you that spectrum don't mean anything, if it did, I would prefer led weed cause it would have been better, but I'm not seeing it, but I have patience.

So clearly there is a difference – no matter what your particular taste.

Sure there is, I just don't think it's for better.
Like I said, there was a difference between hydro and outdoor back then, but you can feel the difference is better, in led weed I feel it's for worse.
But again, I haven't smoked a verified elite clone under leds, so maybe I just smoked shit that was shit also under HIDs, who knows.
That's why I don't get into this debate too much, it's not the lights, it's the genetics solely.

 

[Hammerhead]

u just gotta find that special seed.... best seed i ever found was 15 + years ago from nirvana - the seed was a buck, maybe two.... special lady indeed

Find better breeders if you have only found the best from 1. Hype and popularity don't mean they're good at breeding. Most breeders follow the same path as everyone else. Look for those who lead and do not follow. Look for those that aren't in it for $$. When looking at a seed menu, all you see is hype x hype. find someone else.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

The proof is in the seeds, I love scrolling through endless breeders threads, test grows, I'm looking for those that keep plants they found from seed for 4-5 years, people that cry when they lost a cut that came from a seed pack they popped, I search for the most elite cuts from 20-25 years back and see who's working with what, how and to what end.
I also love to chase some hype as I feel it can't all be false, I've smoked many strains and everyone was special in its own way, when it was a good cut of the same genetic I mean..
So if you have time and means, throw a wild card in that pot sometime

The main problem I feel is there isn't a way to verify which breeder hold which cut, if any.
To make good effect seeds, you need good effect parents, not sure people follow this logic when breeding nowadays..

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Your ramblings about evolution have been proven wrong many times prawn, don't hold to a dying faith, evolution is a lie.
Environment will influence your dna and traits again to a degree, which is very small degree.
Billions of years you say ? Funny, we still look and have the same limbs, nothing changed, still 5 fingers not 4 or 6, in siberia and in the hottest desert, so no, environment won't change you or evolve you, you are born with what you are born, and that's it, your skin will be black if you hang out in africa all day, but it's still skin ! Like everyone else.

Joined two weeks ago... eight messages... wonder whose sock puppet you are?

"...evolution is a lie..."

Looks like we're dealing with a real scientist here, going to add a whole lot of insightful information to the thread, no doubt.

 

[greyfader]

Joined two weeks ago... eight messages... wonder whose sock puppet you are?

"...evolution is a lie..."

Looks like we're dealing with a real scientist here, going to add a whole lot of insightful information to the thread, no doubt.

i think he needs to do a little reading.

key words; "epigenetic drift" a change in genetic expression in a human observable time frame. i have experienced it when growing one cut for a long time. like 7 years.

and;

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0926669021001151#:~:text=Exposure%20to%20a%20wide%20(white,will%20impact%20the%20cannabinoid%20profile.

and:

"Really ? So all this time people grew in hps bulbs winning cups pulling dank is no good indeed, gotta have spectrum..."

he seems to have missed the fact that a cannabis cup held during a time when there were no alternatives will always produce a winner from the hps sources of light.

and:

"evolution is a lie." especially in his case!

and:

i can find no references to "trifektaseeds" anywhere but here in the last 8-10 posts.

looks like we have another troll!

 

[Buddler]

Who cares what people say.. It's how you react is the problem . Opinions, everyone has one ..maybe the guy is a unreal breeder, who knows.Dont take it personal grain o salt carry on..

 

[CocoNut 420]

The proof is in the seeds, I love scrolling through endless breeders threads, test grows, I'm looking for those that keep plants they found from seed for 4-5 years, people that cry when they lost a cut that came from a seed pack they popped, I search for the most elite cuts from 20-25 years back and see who's working with what, how and to what end.
I also love to chase some hype as I feel it can't all be false, I've smoked many strains and everyone was special in its own way, when it was a good cut of the same genetic I mean..
So if you have time and means, throw a wild card in that pot sometime

The main problem I feel is there isn't a way to verify which breeder hold which cut, if any.
To make good effect seeds, you need good effect parents, not sure people follow this logic when breeding nowadays..

The elite clones sound interesting, do have any bud pics of them?

 

[greyfader]

Who cares what people say.. It's how you react is the problem . Opinions, everyone has one ..maybe the guy is a unreal breeder, who knows.Dont take it personal grain o salt carry on..

his grasp of Mendellian inheritance is beyond compare!

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbhdjm/courses/b242/kevin/Lect1.pdf

 

[phunkeeboodah]

regular old mh for flowering has entered the chat