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LED and BUD QUALITY
- Thread starter Tropical Sun
- Start date
Ca++
Well-known member
I see 4 pages have appeared since this post, but I have not spoke about leaf temperatures. You seem confused.
I have quoted you asking the question. If you can't remember, or be bothered to read your own posts...
I don't see we have a conversation here.
@CannaT if I sound like this, I'm leaving. It's cerafule isn't it? There can't be two people like this
greyfader
Well-known member
imagine that we were all sitting together in a comfortable living room, with some mellow background music going on, sampling one another's stash.
and discussing this subject with mutual respect, as friends!
we have many years of growing experience here, perhaps hundreds of years, between a relatively small group of people.
i am learning here as well as sharing my experience.
be nice!
and discussing this subject with mutual respect, as friends!
we have many years of growing experience here, perhaps hundreds of years, between a relatively small group of people.
i am learning here as well as sharing my experience.
be nice!
OK.
So this is probably where we (all) got the idea that your LED plants weren't healthy – because you told us!
If you say so. But might I suggest if you were "100% dialled in" with LEDs you probably wouldn't be complaining about them?
My own opinion is that we can all learn something and we can all do better. That's why I'm here.
I'm not surprised by your use of ad hominem. Perhaps, with a better understanding of how things worked, you wouldn't need it.
So transpiration is the exchange of gasses via the stomata on the underside of the leaf. Those gasses are taken into the leaf and transported throughout the plant. The thermal energy within those gasses is thus dissipated throughout the plant's internal cell structure via the stomata, and not simply via the epidermis (outer layer).
It is certainly not the case that conductive thermal transport happens exclusively by "encasing the leaf", or that it is equally dissipated on either side.
And of course we are talking about stabilised (plant regulated) temperatures – why would we be talking about anything else? We're not talking about spikes!
Your IR analogy is similarly incomplete. Most infrared photons are reflected. I've already posted this, but there is very little leaf absorbance in the range of wavelengths where most of a HPS lamp's IR is produced. Have a look for yourself.
IR does not heat just "one side" of the leaf due to all that reflection. IR is everywhere. And besides, a single photon carries much less energy than an air molecule at ambient temperature.
However, it is almost by design that most of the IR will hit one side of the leaf whereas most of the convective warming (and cooling) will be through the other side of the leaf via stomatal transpiration (the primary regulator of leaf temperature).
But I digress . . . have we both been talking about leaf temperatures here? I guess we have.
In any case, we already know the answer now, as I've posted the results of Bugbee's study comparing leaf temps of HPS vs LED vs Greenhouse vs Sunlight.
LED warms leaves more than sunlight and only 2C less than HPS and 1C less than greenhouse light. Who'd have thought it?
That still doesn't answer the question of how thermal radiation imparts special kinetic properties on water (and other) molecules inside plants that cause photomorphogenic responses different to convective warming.
But I'm not expecting you to answer that.
A bit of Sensi Star from 2005, vertical HPS style.
The bud
The plant
And a bit of Shirley
The bud
The plant
And a bit of Shirley
greyfader
Well-known member
Sensi Star is such an excellent plant! i've never grown it but i have grown Deathstar, which is Sensi star x ECSD. Deathstar and Whitaker Blues (Quimby clone x DJshorts '95 f5 Blueberry. are the parents of Blue Star.
Blue Star OG is Blue Star x Triangle Kush.
this is the Blue Star Og i just finished in the incandescent experiment.
the first 3 are at 6 weeks flower and the last 3 are at 10 weeks.
1,089 grams of finished flower from my stupid household leds plus a little incandescent.
1008 watts of 5000k up until the end of the third week of stretch. and then 924 watts of 2700k plus 150 watts of incandescent for a total of 1074 watts the final 7 weeks of flower.
i ran straight water only the last 10 days.
this was grown in a recirculating closed circuit soilless system known as the PPK.
i used perlite amended with worm casings and diatomaceous earth. it was fed the jack's 3-2-1 formula but at various strengths at different times. the continuous liquid feed included fulvic acid and kelp powder.
ppfd was maintained at around 1200 umols both in veg and in flower two 6-hour periods in veg and one 12-hour period in flower. average daily light integral was around 50-52 mols per day.
this plant is extremely potent and has a great terp profile. quite complex aromas and flavors.
when you open a cured bag it's powerful chocolate coffee to the nose, the first hit is citrus fuel but then a subtle floral perfume aftertaste. very smooth.
i plan to get some tests done on it when i run the next batch. it's a keeper for sure.
Prawn, i'm liking the looks of your lights. i'm moving now and will be in the new place by the 15th but have nowhere to grow until i finish a 600 sq ft outbuilding. i will build a heavily insulated, sealed, efficient space inside of that. probably around 300 sqft total.
i plan on ditching the light bulbs and getting some modern lights that are more electrically efficient.
these produce around 107 lumens per watt while some of the better lights are getting in the 140 lumens per watt range, a significant difference.
i like your use of 2700k for flower. most manufacturers are using combos of 3000k and 5000k trying to build a one-size-fits-all commercial light. i think they are compromises that can be beaten by dedicated veg and flower lights. Valoya is presenting dedicated lights now.
just thought you would be interested in the genetics of this plant and the results i got with it.
well fuck, the pics are showing up out of order sometimes. so anyway 2017, 2014, and 2016 are the 6 week pics and 2039, 2065, and 2068 are the 10 week ones. i know you all know the difference anyway but just in case someone new comes along they're labeled.
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Gotta love that E27 LED bulb grow! That's the way to do it, haha! 
I'm familiar with the Blue Star only because I follow JD (DJ's son) on Insta and because I've grown a number of DJ Short strains in the past and like to keep up with what they are both doing. I was only going through DC Seed exchange's catalogue the other day seeing what was left in stock: https://dcseedexchange.com/product-category/dj-short-old-world-genetics/
It's unfortunate I don't have a lot of photos from over the years, as I posted most of them on different forums which have either died or the pix dropped off. I don't like to keep photos on my computer. Just in case. It's hard to believe growing pot is still very illegal in Australia . . .
Sensi Star is an interesting one because there have been a few iterations over the years. There is the talk of "pre-96" or "pre-97" Sensi Star that came after the original version in 1995, but I never grew that. I did grow the "post-97" Sensi Star (the multi cup-winning version) and there were two phenotypes, often referred to as the indica and sativa phenos.
Many preferred the sativa pheno, which was big and oily and had a "Lemon Pledge" smell that was also a bit sweet, but I liked the indica pheno, which was a real Kush variety that grew short and leafy but was incredibly strong. It had that lime-menthol taste that is so prevalent in a lot of modern "Cookies type" strains and probably put more friends in taxis at the end of the night (because they couldn't drive their own cars) than any other strain I grew.
This was the sativa pheno, which we kept for commercial reasons (this one was half a pound dried, trimmed), even though I kept the indica version for my own personal smoke.
In the mid-late 2000s Luc at Paradise Seeds started brining out femmed versions of all his strains and Sensi Star. Other companies also started working with it – notably Delta-9 Labs and their "Super Star" F2 version that went down the sativa line.
Soon, the original Sensi Star regular seeds became unavailable and you can't buy them any more – only the femmed version. I am lucky to still have a couple of packs of original Sensi Star regs that I will grow out one of these days I also have some Delta-9 Super Star and of course I have a lot of Sensi Star femmed seeds on tap.
The last Sensi Star femmed seeds I grew were about 5-6 years ago. You can see that Luc also went down the sativa pheno path with his femmed version.
Sensi Star at about 4-5 weeks of flower
Sensi Stars stretching above an Acid plant
Other side of the tent at the same time, mostly Acid, but you can see how big the Sensi Stars are in comparison.
Finished Sensi Star – it's a good yielder
In the end, I didn't keep anything from the femmed version batch I grew, but I do have some seeds from my old Sensi Star indica keeper clone that I will grow out one day (one day!).
I'm familiar with the Blue Star only because I follow JD (DJ's son) on Insta and because I've grown a number of DJ Short strains in the past and like to keep up with what they are both doing. I was only going through DC Seed exchange's catalogue the other day seeing what was left in stock: https://dcseedexchange.com/product-category/dj-short-old-world-genetics/
It's unfortunate I don't have a lot of photos from over the years, as I posted most of them on different forums which have either died or the pix dropped off. I don't like to keep photos on my computer. Just in case. It's hard to believe growing pot is still very illegal in Australia . . .
Sensi Star is an interesting one because there have been a few iterations over the years. There is the talk of "pre-96" or "pre-97" Sensi Star that came after the original version in 1995, but I never grew that. I did grow the "post-97" Sensi Star (the multi cup-winning version) and there were two phenotypes, often referred to as the indica and sativa phenos.
Many preferred the sativa pheno, which was big and oily and had a "Lemon Pledge" smell that was also a bit sweet, but I liked the indica pheno, which was a real Kush variety that grew short and leafy but was incredibly strong. It had that lime-menthol taste that is so prevalent in a lot of modern "Cookies type" strains and probably put more friends in taxis at the end of the night (because they couldn't drive their own cars) than any other strain I grew.
This was the sativa pheno, which we kept for commercial reasons (this one was half a pound dried, trimmed), even though I kept the indica version for my own personal smoke.
In the mid-late 2000s Luc at Paradise Seeds started brining out femmed versions of all his strains and Sensi Star. Other companies also started working with it – notably Delta-9 Labs and their "Super Star" F2 version that went down the sativa line.
Soon, the original Sensi Star regular seeds became unavailable and you can't buy them any more – only the femmed version. I am lucky to still have a couple of packs of original Sensi Star regs that I will grow out one of these days I also have some Delta-9 Super Star and of course I have a lot of Sensi Star femmed seeds on tap.
The last Sensi Star femmed seeds I grew were about 5-6 years ago. You can see that Luc also went down the sativa pheno path with his femmed version.
Sensi Star at about 4-5 weeks of flower
Sensi Stars stretching above an Acid plant
Other side of the tent at the same time, mostly Acid, but you can see how big the Sensi Stars are in comparison.
Finished Sensi Star – it's a good yielder
In the end, I didn't keep anything from the femmed version batch I grew, but I do have some seeds from my old Sensi Star indica keeper clone that I will grow out one day (one day!).
Seeing as this is the "Led vs HPS" thread I just found a couple more photos from old sites.
This was not the greatest grow in the world at the time (probably around 2013), but it shows my vertical 1200W HPS system with the 600W bulbs hanging inline. You can see how close my plants were to the light without burning, and that was due to the "column of air" I created using a floor fan blowing straight up to an extractor fan directly over the bare bulbs. The trellis obviously prevents the plants growing into the light. The total area is 4'x4'x6' tall and I would get up to 3.5lb or more (not this grow) depending on the strains I was growing at the time.
This photo is interesting because the skinny sativas on the left are Chimera's Schanzzleberry #2 (Blue Domino x Blueberry F4) showing typical nitrogen clawing from the same mix I used for all my plants (bit of challenge that, feeding different varieties from the same reservoir).
Anyway, I made some seeds using a Schnazz male that pollinated most of my keeper clones at the time, and one of them was a Swiss Bliss.
I grew those seeds out maybe 5 years later and this is how they turned out under LED. They were absolute beasts! Bear in mind that this is just half a 4x2 tent, so total floor space of 2x2 under about 200W of 3000K Samsung strips. You can see the other 200W light fixture in the foreground.
When people ask why I switched from HPS to LED, I just start showing them photos and telling them some of the insane yields I'm getting. The grow above was 2lb – 2lb!!! – in a 4x2 under 400W of light. That's 2.27gpw. Putting it into perspective, these sativas flowered for 11-12 weeks each, so the high yield is tempered by the longer flowering times.
Have you noticed how green my plants are? My plants are always healthy – right up until harvest – and it doesn't matter whether I grow under HPS or LED.
In fact, "fade" is bullshit – but that's probably left for another discussion!
This was not the greatest grow in the world at the time (probably around 2013), but it shows my vertical 1200W HPS system with the 600W bulbs hanging inline. You can see how close my plants were to the light without burning, and that was due to the "column of air" I created using a floor fan blowing straight up to an extractor fan directly over the bare bulbs. The trellis obviously prevents the plants growing into the light. The total area is 4'x4'x6' tall and I would get up to 3.5lb or more (not this grow) depending on the strains I was growing at the time.
This photo is interesting because the skinny sativas on the left are Chimera's Schanzzleberry #2 (Blue Domino x Blueberry F4) showing typical nitrogen clawing from the same mix I used for all my plants (bit of challenge that, feeding different varieties from the same reservoir).
Anyway, I made some seeds using a Schnazz male that pollinated most of my keeper clones at the time, and one of them was a Swiss Bliss.
I grew those seeds out maybe 5 years later and this is how they turned out under LED. They were absolute beasts! Bear in mind that this is just half a 4x2 tent, so total floor space of 2x2 under about 200W of 3000K Samsung strips. You can see the other 200W light fixture in the foreground.
When people ask why I switched from HPS to LED, I just start showing them photos and telling them some of the insane yields I'm getting. The grow above was 2lb – 2lb!!! – in a 4x2 under 400W of light. That's 2.27gpw. Putting it into perspective, these sativas flowered for 11-12 weeks each, so the high yield is tempered by the longer flowering times.
Have you noticed how green my plants are? My plants are always healthy – right up until harvest – and it doesn't matter whether I grow under HPS or LED.
In fact, "fade" is bullshit – but that's probably left for another discussion!
Here's another Schnazzleberry cross x Calizhar grown under vertical HPS.
And a bit more "Swizzleberry" (Swiss Bliss x Schnazz) under LED and leaning over under their own weight.
And a bit more "Swizzleberry" (Swiss Bliss x Schnazz) under LED and leaning over under their own weight.
exoticrobotic
Well-known member
Is it though?
You're not the first to confuse these two threads. It's gloves on here...Bare knuckle in the led vs hps thread.
lovely plants btw
exoticrobotic
Well-known member
Smoked some beautiful indica leaning Sensi Star ages ago.
Masiive sticky buds with a nice thick but up n fluttery indica buzz.
Masiive sticky buds with a nice thick but up n fluttery indica buzz.
You'll forgive me if I'm confusedIs it though?
You're not the first to confuse these two threads. It's gloves on here...Bare knuckle in the led vs hps thread.
lovely plants btw
I might have to search out this bare-knuckle LED v HPS thread.
And if you forgive me, then I'll forgive you if this isn't to your taste. But it's a great song IMO.
This version is a bit quirkier, with its own innate charm
But you might like this one better
And a photo from the tent today coz LED FTW!
exoticrobotic
Well-known member
Sounds verrry nice.
I like the music and the very early reference to Peas. I prefer the 2nd one with the Lute.
I only had a few smokes where i couldn't or wouldn't want to drive afterwards.
Love that rushy up trippy wtf smoke.
After the punch up, Here's some peaceful Celtic hps sounds from a mostly unknown 80's band Clannad.
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exoticrobotic
Well-known member
It's mellowed now to more of a love you longtime vibe
CMH vs LED vs HPS
And unicorn hair to bring good luck if you don't have IR diodes available at your local LED store
www.icmag.com
I'll dig up some old flouro tube grow photos later.
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Yeah, second version is my favourite too.
Glad you picked up on "Give peas a chance . . . or I'll batter you over the head with a tin of them!"
In 2002 I grew out a Spice of Life Adventure Mix, which was Breeder Steve's Sweet Tooth #3 garden pollinated with all his male breeding stock (Shishkeberry, Blue Domino, Big Treat, California Dream, Tropical Treat, Jack Herer, Ortega, Strawberry, M39).
Of course, I had no idea WTF I was growing, but there was one truly standout female in the pack that was so thick and resinous and STINKY that I nick-named it "Mr Diesel" – because it smelled exactly like diesel fuel. And this was before I'd even heard of NYCD.
Despite calling her "Mr" Diesel – or maybe because of it – she was strong as fuck. I gave some to a Canadian friend of mine at the time, who was obviously familiar with Canadian genetics, and then one afternoon I got a call from him:
"Dude, I'm parked on the side of the road in a country park with my wife. We were stupid. We smoked some of your Mr Diesel in the car before driving home and after 10 minutes I had to pull over. I can't drive anywhere. I'm SO FUCKING STONED! How long does this shit last?"
I laughed, but it was kinda serious because they were stranded in the country and neither of them could drive until the effects wore off. Apparently they spent well over an hour trying to come down enough to get home.
No photos of that one, but it was a beauty (which I never cloned). I grew out another Adventure Mix after that and it didn't seem to be as good. The only indica I grew after that that rivalled Mr Diesel for power was early Sensi Star.
I see Breeder Steve is active in Thailand now. Here's a blast from the past for anyone who remembers: https://growshopalien.com/onlineshop/contents/nl/d62.html
I was always a big fan of Canadian genetics and I grew out a few of Chimera's strains as well. The last one was Mental Floss, which I've posted photos of already, but here are a couple more:
Glad you picked up on "Give peas a chance . . . or I'll batter you over the head with a tin of them!"
In 2002 I grew out a Spice of Life Adventure Mix, which was Breeder Steve's Sweet Tooth #3 garden pollinated with all his male breeding stock (Shishkeberry, Blue Domino, Big Treat, California Dream, Tropical Treat, Jack Herer, Ortega, Strawberry, M39).
Of course, I had no idea WTF I was growing, but there was one truly standout female in the pack that was so thick and resinous and STINKY that I nick-named it "Mr Diesel" – because it smelled exactly like diesel fuel. And this was before I'd even heard of NYCD.
Despite calling her "Mr" Diesel – or maybe because of it – she was strong as fuck. I gave some to a Canadian friend of mine at the time, who was obviously familiar with Canadian genetics, and then one afternoon I got a call from him:
"Dude, I'm parked on the side of the road in a country park with my wife. We were stupid. We smoked some of your Mr Diesel in the car before driving home and after 10 minutes I had to pull over. I can't drive anywhere. I'm SO FUCKING STONED! How long does this shit last?"
I laughed, but it was kinda serious because they were stranded in the country and neither of them could drive until the effects wore off. Apparently they spent well over an hour trying to come down enough to get home.
No photos of that one, but it was a beauty (which I never cloned). I grew out another Adventure Mix after that and it didn't seem to be as good. The only indica I grew after that that rivalled Mr Diesel for power was early Sensi Star.
I see Breeder Steve is active in Thailand now. Here's a blast from the past for anyone who remembers: https://growshopalien.com/onlineshop/contents/nl/d62.html
I was always a big fan of Canadian genetics and I grew out a few of Chimera's strains as well. The last one was Mental Floss, which I've posted photos of already, but here are a couple more:
greyfader
Well-known member
so, Whitaker Blues is one of JD's and one of the genetics involved in the Blue Star OG. Josh of BlueStarSeedco collaborates with both DJ and JD.Seeing as this is the "Led vs HPS" thread I just found a couple more photos from old sites.
This was not the greatest grow in the world at the time (probably around 2013), but it shows my vertical 1200W HPS system with the 600W bulbs hanging inline. You can see how close my plants were to the light without burning, and that was due to the "column of air" I created using a floor fan blowing straight up to an extractor fan directly over the bare bulbs. The trellis obviously prevents the plants growing into the light. The total area is 4'x4'x6' tall and I would get up to 3.5lb or more (not this grow) depending on the strains I was growing at the time.
This photo is interesting because the skinny sativas on the left are Chimera's Schanzzleberry #2 (Blue Domino x Blueberry F4) showing typical nitrogen clawing from the same mix I used for all my plants (bit of challenge that, feeding different varieties from the same reservoir).
View attachment 18943030
Anyway, I made some seeds using a Schnazz male that pollinated most of my keeper clones at the time, and one of them was a Swiss Bliss.
View attachment 18943032
I grew those seeds out maybe 5 years later and this is how they turned out under LED. They were absolute beasts! Bear in mind that this is just half a 4x2 tent, so total floor space of 2x2 under about 200W of 3000K Samsung strips. You can see the other 200W light fixture in the foreground.
View attachment 18943034
When people ask why I switched from HPS to LED, I just start showing them photos and telling them some of the insane yields I'm getting. The grow above was 2lb – 2lb!!! – in a 4x2 under 400W of light. That's 2.27gpw. Putting it into perspective, these sativas flowered for 11-12 weeks each, so the high yield is tempered by the longer flowering times.
Have you noticed how green my plants are? My plants are always healthy – right up until harvest – and it doesn't matter whether I grow under HPS or LED.
In fact, "fade" is bullshit – but that's probably left for another discussion!
i'm also known as Delta9nxs, and the PPK device is my creation. i was living in Eugene, Or from 2013 to 2018 to hone my skills in a legal, competitive environment. Josh is a user of my system and while he was visiting Oregon to see the Shorts he came by and toured my facility and came to the house for a while. we talked about all kinds of stuff but i was very impressed with Josh as a breeder and a human being. he is one of the most dedicated and caring people in the industry. you should check out his inventory at BlueStarSeedco.
i grew Sweet Tooth #4 for 7 years with no mothers, just cloning off the ones going to flower. another great plant. nice to know Breeder Steve is still active.
i feel for you living in an illegal environment. before Oregon, i was a black market grower living in several southern states that still had medieval laws. life in prison for a joint.
but the same uptight assholes who used hypocritical moral arguments against cannabis now see the money on the wall and are legalizing these states one at a time. amazing how greed can change your morals.
i have found your comment on "the fade" to be mostly true and normally my plants are lush and green right up to harvest but i'm also experimenting with the application of stress at certain points and this time i drained the solution and refilled with plain Ph corrected water for the last 10 days. next time i will run this plant without the "flush" just to see if there is any difference. you can't flush nutrients out of a plant but you can force them to use up the stored nutrients. jury is still out.
i'm enjoying the musical additions to this thread. i listen to almost anything but love blues and jazz. i lived in San Francisco from 1966 to 1971 and went to most of the Fillmore concerts. i saw all the old delta blues greats and the British invasion bands. i was at the "Cream Live at the Fillmore" album concert. the night Ginger Baker went ballistic with the famous 22-minute drum solo. Clapton and Bruce declared a break and walked off the stage but Ginger Baker stayed.
i saw Hendrix at the October '68 Winterland concert, he played 3 nights but i got lucky and was there the night he set fire to his guitar. pot was still illegal then but i remember the thick blue haze that hung in the air the entire concert.
the last few years i've been listening to the human voice a lot. so many talented vocalists. i've been listening to this lady quite a bit lately. her name is Violet Orlandi. she's from Brazil but lives in the US now.
she likes metal and dark music.
here she is doing some Disturbed.
Dime
Well-known member
Breeder Steve is still active for sure,I grew quite a few of his plants when Spice of life was around.
Breeder Steve
breedersteve.com
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