Leaves "burning" but PPM going down daily...

[Hydrolized]

Thanks stoney.

I thought this same thing and through all my searching have found a few "pro" growers talking about this area....a few say with Lucas there is enough Ca and Mg in the 8/16 mix to run in RO without any CalMag, others say with RO you NEED it.

The hard data (lucas's numbers) do show that even with 0ppm starting water, there should be enough Ca/Mg from the 8/16 to be fine without any CalMag...but when checking out threads where people have the same problems I'm seeing (spotting leaves, curling tips) I've seen a few people saying their plants needed it regardless....some of the pros on here (0420, or maybe hydro-soil), I think, told some guys to get the CalMag OUT of there mix because it was locking up the nutes with too much Ca, other pros (freezerboy I think) was telling people with RO they NEEDED CalMag. jesus!

Simon from SS pretty much said he runs his White Russian at 1.9EC (950ppm) with no additives...Lucas 8/16 is 947ppm....pretty darn close to me....I just dont understand why these plants are showing what I think is a Ca deficiency with ALMOST 8/16 Lucas plus another 200ppm of calmag!

I want to agree with the fact that adding the calmag could be locking up the nutes, but I've seen people running DWC on here adding the full 10ml/g of calmag which comes out to about 450ppm! without any nute lock problems, so I'm weary of that opinion.

Thank again for your opinion on it!

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Ive had a persistent issue that looks like Cal def but it has turned out to be bugs, root aphids in particular, not nutrient or ph. He should rule out a bug problem while he's messing with his nutes. Check the root ball, particularly the tap root area, for any critters. There's a thread posted recently in the infirmary (fungus gnats? Root aphids!)that finally helped me figure it out just yesterday after seeing the signs but not putting 2 and 2 together.

 

[Hydrolized]

Thanks IGT. That looked really promising, he pulled out some roots from the tub and checked things out with a 30x scope, nothing to be found.

Thanks for that info though it will come in handy for MANY people I bet!


Update...upper fan leaves are still curling up and dying....here are some update pics

Note how only the back plant is really "drying up" the leaves, the front one isn't as bad, but still spotting/yellowing/browning/dying...

Also, all the lower branch growth seems to be fine!..so wierd.

I'm just leaning towards a general OVERfert...still not sure though.

Also, the last pic is of the clone he took off the back plant 40 days ago (day flipped to flower) so they are on day 40 veg, about day 30 since rooting....its fan leafs is starting to do it too!!

The plant is in veg in DWC on a 3ml M, 6ml B feed, about 500ppm, pH 5.8... ugh!

thanks again for all the time and help of any contributors!

 

[lysol]

about 500ppm, pH 5.8... ugh!

I must confess I didn't read the whole thread, but I have a plant that is getting freaking huge, and I have yet to personally have a plant that handled more then 300ppm, 500ppm tops without burning. Try starting with RO water and mixing to no more then like 300ppm and try that for a week. If it is burnt I guarantee that will stop it. Keep going lower, even if you must goto 100ppm. Do it, until the growth tips come out "flat" and the leaf edges dont curl under.

Honestly your plants look hungry. Probably not a ppm problem, probably an imbalance. If you are sure it is burn then just keep going lower

... and as for

OK, 6/12 is not the Lucas formula, it's 8/16.

6/12 = .5 ratio
8/16 = .5 ratio (just lower concentration).

Did you pay attention in math? Even lucas says lower the concentration for smaller plants, smaller lights, different medium, etc. Its really the lucas ratio, its not a formula in a math sense.

 

[MynameStitch]

look still like they got burned, but how close is your light? Did you add more light, or did they move into a lighting that was stronger then before in veg?

 

[Hydrolized]

The 1000w HPS is 18" from the canopy. It is air cooled and he can actually get his hand about 8" from the bottom of the glass without it heating up, so I don't think it is heat stress/burn. Also, it's not happening at the very top of the plant, which I think it would if it was the light. The ambient temps are 75F and with the fan blowing on the canopy it stays at about the same temp.

They were under a 400w 7200K MH in veg, but it was only 4" away from the tops, and they were slowly weaned into the 1000w by placing it 5' above them and bringing it down 1' every 2 days, so I don't think it was "light shock" either.

Thanks for the response Stitch!


Thanks a lot lysol. I was thinking that too, I've seen a lot of people that are saying they are seeing burn even at really low EC. The only thing that stumps me is that the EC drops every few days by around 10ppm, so that should mean they are not in too strong of a solution. You would figure if they were burning the PPM's would go UP like 50-100ppm per day as I've seen peoples solutions do when they go to strong.

The differences between burn and a deficiency seem very small, if any, and I thought watching the EC as FreezerBoy tells everyone to do would be a sure-fire way to tell. Something about the EC as I've said before is that Simon himself who breeds the White Russian says he starts the plants at around 1.2-1.5 )600-750ppm), and flowers them at 950ppm. Considering the very stable and uniform genetics of all Serious Seed strains, these White Russians should take the same EC as he gives his White Russians....do you see where I'm going with this?

I really appreciate your time and responses in this thread as I always like your posts elsewhere.

Also, the Lucas formula is said to have all the Ca and Mg a plant needs...sooo

Following some of the advise on here, he dumped the res and mixed a straight Lucas res, no Cal-Mag, no Koolbloom. All that went in was Micro and Bloom. PPM came out to 950ppm, right on target. So...the plants got worse! They started spotting and yellowing even faster!..PPMs still staying stable, don't drop and don't go up, over the past 5 days. So, W.T.F.

I hear the clones are starting to show the same thing now at 580 PPM lucas RATIO, I'm feeling really bad for my buddy at this point.

Thanks A LOT to everyone who is reading and giving their opinions.

 

[MynameStitch]

You have more pictures of them right now? Updated ones without the hps light on?

I am not saying it's heat stress, but on the note you can get heat stress with an air cooled hood, it's the light intensity on the leaves and the heat they emit that can cause the problem.

 

[Hydrolized]

Thanks stitch. I understand what your saying. This is happening from the lowest fan leaves, to the top though.

I think he has given up on the flowering plants and is just going to let them go till finish on the Lucas 8:16.

I want to get to the bottom of problem with the clones though so he can have a better run with them than with these. Clones were taken off one of these plants before they were put into flower. They were started in .5 EC when they had roots, then he went to 1.3 EC after they were a week old and growing, so 650PPM. They looked like they were burning and didnt grow very much for a week so he backed it down to around 1.1EC so 550PPM.

Ive seen tons of people saying they throw their rooted clones (all different strains) right into 8:16 Lucas 1.9EC with no problems, and Simon of Serious Seeds also says he starts these WR's at 1.2-1.5 EC for veg so when they stunted and stopped growing/burnt tips at 1.2EC I was once again baffled. When he dropped down to 1.1EC they started growing again, and are still growing now on Day 30 since rooted in the 550ppm solution.

The PPM as usual goes down about 10ppm every week so they SHOULDN'T be burning..but they are showing the same contradicting signs as the ones in flower....On the fan leaves, green, then yellow, then brown spots on the fan leaves, would make you think up the PPM to get more Ca/Mg, but they leaves are also tip burnt and tips are curling down, also the leaves just starting to "spot" are dark green also showing sufficient N. The growing tips and upper growth now is very light green, showing a little N underfeeding now...this is just confusing the HELL out of me.

I loved browsing through these forums and seeing all these threads where people just throw the plant in, go Lucas formula for the whole run and get great buds making it look SO EASY.

Now, I see how NOT easy it can be! I'm sure part of it is that I'm doing all this by pictures and weekly updates as a favor for a buddy....all I'm really getting out of this now is that I'm glad I don't grow..I would be pulling my hair out!

I can't thank everyone enough for the time they spend reading through my babbling and for the help, advice, and opinions you are putting on the table.

Hopefully IC can help get this problem fixed so this poor lad can have a good run.

I will get some pics from him and post them when I can.

 

[lysol]

Total ppm going down does not preclude amount of N increasing.

N burn = claw / canoe
P burn = yellow tips
etc...

The plant could be def. in P and overfed in N, yet still lowering the ppms.

Plants respond to nutrients ppm, not electrical conductivity (the "ppm" your meter reads is calibrated to salt, as in table salt.) Since your salts are a different kind, the ppm your meter reads means little.

I will confirm what stitch said. I had cool air flowing right on my tube. I could put my hand on it for minutes if I wanted. My tops still got light bleached under 600w 8" away.

If you say lowering the ec .1 helped, I would say lower it a lot more. Personally, I'd cut it a lot more than .1, if .1 helped a little, cutting it more should help even more, to a reasonable degree.

 

[Hydrolized]

Thanks lysol.

I did explain to him a week ago that just because the PPM is staying the same doesn't mean different elements are being taken up/left behind. Hence the reason you are supposed to change out your res every week or two, the plant might be using a bunch of P but leaving a bunch of N behind causing N burn.

Thanks for the data on the light burn, 8" on a 600 must have been bright before the bleaching! I have seen a light bleached leaf before, goes white then tan between the veins right? All the pics I've seen of these is not light bleaching I'm pretty sure though.

I know what your saying about the EC. I think I will tell him to drop it to 1.0EC for awhile...just still bothers me that Simon says (haha) that he starts the WR at 1.2-1.5 for veg...thats 100-250ppm higher than that..and you would think since he "invented" the White Russian strain and breeds them every day he would know whats up!

One thing I'm guessing now is that he gives those recommendations without saying what system he uses, maybe he uses E&F, and these plants are in DWC, where the nutes are more available at all times, so maybe a weaker solution is needed? I don't know, just guessing here!

Thanks again lysol!!

 

[Hydrolized]

Here are some pics I got today.

There are 4 plants, all are showing this. Looks like the first three pics are a Ca deficiency, then the last one is a P deficiency because the leaf edges are brown.....but as you can see in all of them, the leaves are dark green and the tips are burned, so there is opposite signs here! Does anyone think this can be overall burn that just looks like deficiencies?

Facts...

Day 30 veg since roots showed, day 45 total (15 days till 6" roots)
Light- 400w Air Cooled MH 7200K @ 12"
Nutes- Lucas RATIO @1.1EC (550ppm)
System- RDWC

Tried to start them on 1.2EC 10 days into Veg since most people go right into full Lucas, but they wouldn't even grow, so he lowered it to 1.1 EC and they started growing. Now, the big fan leaves are showing this problem, and the upper leaves look very light green, not sure if this "lightness" is showing a good or bad thing, you can judge by the pics.

 

[Hydrolized]

Few more pics for reference.


Thanks again to everyone helping out.

 

[Hydrolized]

N Nitrogen:

Deficiency: Plants will exhibit lack of vigor as older leaves become yellow (chlorotic) from lack of chlorophyll. Chlorosis will eventually spread throughout the plant. Stems, petioles and lower leaf surfaces may turn purple.
Toxicity: Leaves are often dark green and in the early stages abundant with foliage. If excess is severe, leaves will dry and begin to fall off. Root system will remain under developed or deteriorate after time. Fruit and flower set will be inhibited or deformed.

P Phosphorus:

Deficiency: Plants are stunted and older leaves often dark dull green in color. Stems and leafstalk may turn purple. Plant maturity is often delayed.
Toxicity: This condition is rare and usually buffered by pH limitations. Excess phosphorus can interfere with the availability of copper and zinc.

K Potassium:

Deficiency: Older leaves are initially chlorotic but soon develop dark necrotic lesions (dead tissue). First apparent on the tips and margins of the leaves. Stem and branches may become weak and easily broken.
Toxicity: Usually not absorbed excessively by plants. Excess potassium can aggravate the uptake of magnesium, manganese, zinc and iron.

Alright. That came off of the old OG site.

Going by those descriptions and looking at the pics I just posted....The older leaves are dark green with yellowing spots/tips, so could be a N OVERfeed, or a P and K UNDERFEED.

The N Toxicity also says bud growth will be deformed, I noticed that his back plant has deformed top buds, instead of one nice bud the top turned into 4 or 5 smaller buds kind of like it was topped during flowering and branched out...

The Ca description says it starts on the new leaves, this is only happening on the OLD big fan leaves, as seen in the pics...

So, what does everyone think?

Sorry for the repeated bumps, just still researching and figured I would post what I came across.

 

[Hydrolized]

Bumb for help

 

[burniequap]

Its going down

 

[rubbanutz420]

Anyone ever figure out what is going on with these plants? This is a good thread with great detail....It would be a shame not to come to a good conclusion...Bump Bump Biggity Fuckin' Bump Bump! Bump Bump! Bump Bump! (say to the beat of The Little Drummer Boy)

Merry Christmas to all and to all a stoned night! BONG!

 

[rickyjack9]

The 1000w HPS is 18" from the canopy. It is air cooled and he can actually get his hand about 8" from the bottom of the glass without it heating up, so I don't think it is heat stress/burn. Also, it's not happening at the very top of the plant, which I think it would if it was the light. The ambient temps are 75F and with the fan blowing on the canopy it stays at about the same temp.

They were under a 400w 7200K MH in veg, but it was only 4" away from the tops, and they were slowly weaned into the 1000w by placing it 5' above them and bringing it down 1' every 2 days, so I don't think it was "light shock" either.

Thanks for the response Stitch!


Thanks a lot lysol. I was thinking that too, I've seen a lot of people that are saying they are seeing burn even at really low EC. The only thing that stumps me is that the EC drops every few days by around 10ppm, so that should mean they are not in too strong of a solution. You would figure if they were burning the PPM's would go UP like 50-100ppm per day as I've seen peoples solutions do when they go to strong.

The differences between burn and a deficiency seem very small, if any, and I thought watching the EC as FreezerBoy tells everyone to do would be a sure-fire way to tell. Something about the EC as I've said before is that Simon himself who breeds the White Russian says he starts the plants at around 1.2-1.5 )600-750ppm), and flowers them at 950ppm. Considering the very stable and uniform genetics of all Serious Seed strains, these White Russians should take the same EC as he gives his White Russians....do you see where I'm going with this?

I really appreciate your time and responses in this thread as I always like your posts elsewhere.

Also, the Lucas formula is said to have all the Ca and Mg a plant needs...sooo

Following some of the advise on here, he dumped the res and mixed a straight Lucas res, no Cal-Mag, no Koolbloom. All that went in was Micro and Bloom. PPM came out to 950ppm, right on target. So...the plants got worse! They started spotting and yellowing even faster!..PPMs still staying stable, don't drop and don't go up, over the past 5 days. So, W.T.F.

I hear the clones are starting to show the same thing now at 580 PPM lucas RATIO, I'm feeling really bad for my buddy at this point.

Thanks A LOT to everyone who is reading and giving their opinions.

18 inches to canopy for 1000w? worked ok for a parabolic reflector, but those newer cooled hoods, I had to stay 24-40 inches away else mites/heat/leaf fade...also it seems lower ec at week7 needed else mites too. cant win for losin?! dwc was too much ice cycling, but coco-drip in 3gal smarts doing almost as good as dwc, so im sold. I do perpetuals so wonder if I need 5gal smarts? I only flower 2 plants at a time, veg 2. this is Oregon legal.