Large Fan Leaves (blocking light or providing energy for the plant?)

[kanzzzz]

Ok I know this subject has been done to death , but im wondering what peoples opinions are.
What are peoples thoughts on removing large fans leaves blocking light getting to buds , or maybe just removing them the last week or two of flower to let more light in?

I don't know what exactly the leaves do if im honest, however I assume since the plant producess them , there vital to the plant .
However what I do know is that fan leaves blocking light to lower buds will cause those buds deprived of light to not really develop.

Clostest thing Ive done to test this if you will is, Iv done larger plants that grow huge , but get a little tight so light cant get right down to the plant. Then a smaller one , almost identical in shap and structure just not as bushy , so light can get into the whole of the plant.

Now the small plant with not much leaves blocking light etc , will have top quality bud from top to bottem of the plant, no popcorn whatsoever, a joy to trim really.

However the bigger plant that has all those big fan leaves blocking all the light from getting in has loads of popcorn.

Now the problem here is the quality of the tops of the buds are the same on both the smaller and bigger plant in size and quality , give or take . The only diffrence is the lower buds. The ones that cant get light due to being blocked by the fan leaves.

I usually just tuck fan leaves in these situations , but they can still block alof of light.
Im wonddering has anyone seen any good tests or tried this before to see if theres a magic middle ground of removing some fan leaves for better light , but not butchering the plant?

 

[al70]

Have a read of this kanzzzz.
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04-12-2013, 04:24 PM #15
melro52
New Member

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1

Pluck those leaves, they're taking away from the buds!
I'm a senior female who has been growing all sorts of plants, bushes, trees my whole life. I learned it from my first generation American mom who grew everything too. When a plant like marijuana, which is a terpenoid, (produces resin no differently than a pine tree), gets to the stage that it is flowering/budding, the plant pretty much ceases to grow. At this stage all plant's energy is going toward producing seed be it in the form of fruit, vegetable, flowers, buds. Every living thing is programmed to PROCREATE if nothing else. Any plant in stress, a tree that is dying, a plant in it's final stages will quickly try to procreate as much as possible.

We prevent female marijuana plants from being pollinated and seeding so buds continue to swell in the hope of being pollinated and the plant procreating. The big marijuana leaves on the plant at this stage are doing nothing but taking resin away from the buds. The plant itself should no longer be growing because it's reached it's pot size potential and we've forced it to bud. The buds are what people want to smoke not leaves, so pinch them off. Use the sticky leaves to make butter, or hash. As for the resin in the plant, it's now known that higher temps, increased sunlight, and decreased water supply really motivate terpenoids to produce resin.

Pinching out the big marijuana leaves allows:

Light and heat to hit all budding sights
Keeps the plant drier signaling more resin production (the hydro in THC is a clue) to protect and nourish the swelling buds.
Alerts the plant that a herbivore may be eating it. Resin is a plants defense. Most critters do NOT like the taste of resin and therefore the plant will produce even more resin.
Allows all the good juju (resin) to go right to the buds and not on the leaves, which no one wants to smoke.

Think about it. Everything in my yard perennials, bushes, trees, herbs, roses, vegetables get thinned out once, twice, some three times over the summer or they suffer. I've flowered a 4 ft. lime tree in a pot. I've got gardenia's blooming on a giant 3 ft bush in my living room in MI right now. Always remember that the top of any plant in a pot cannot grow beyond the root system that supports it so once the plant/tree is mature, cutting back/pinching is necessary, repotting is NOT because part of forcing any plant to bloom is letting it become root bound, taking away light, and restricting water supply. This makes the plant bloom faster and more vigorously because it's all it can do. It must produce seed to maintain the species despite its dire conditions (starvation) and will do it every time.

When my plucked Northern Lights girly gets even more white with resin I'll post pics. She's only into her 4th week of flowering and smells absolutely lovely.
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[Tri_Cho_Me]

Yes

Tri_Cho_Me

 

[plutosmoke]

nice post al70, I have a question, when can we start plucking off those leaves? after flower stretching phase? or would u say after buds development phase going into bulking?

 

[CosmicCharlie]

I start plucking leaves that block light and sucker branches even before flowering.

Then I do it again a few weeks into flowering and maybe again lightly towards the last few weeks of flowering.

I don't take everything off, just suckers that won't produce and leaves that block light to budsites.

 

[Phaeton]

I generally stay out of these stoner opinion threads.

Using as a basic premise, marijuana plants are really just another C3 shrubbery and not possessing any magical properties, I base my research on standard gardening procedures worked out by hundreds of years of commercial farming.

Years of study cannot be condensed down to a post in a thread.
But saying fan leaves are a drag on the plant and block valuable light is so silly I broke my rule and am posting when I should just sigh and back away.

 

[kanzzzz]

I generally stay out of these stoner opinion threads.

Using as a basic premise, marijuana plants are really just another C3 shrubbery and not possessing any magical properties, I base my research on standard gardening procedures worked out by hundreds of years of commercial farming.

Years of study cannot be condensed down to a post in a thread.
But saying fan leaves are a drag on the plant and block valuable light is so silly I broke my rule and am posting when I should just sigh and back away.

Over ten years of growing plants and loads of similar grows tell me fan leaves blocking light to bud, will stop the buds from developing to there truest potential. (certainly the ones below the leaves). Without making the top ones any better.

Back to my runs with big and small plants , the small ones had great buds from top to bottem , bigger plant only had good top half of the plant, and the buds from the bigger plant where not exactrly double the small plant to make up the difrence.


Thats the very point of my question, I have no doubt that fan leaves are needed , however there is a point they do more damage than good if you will, as I explained in my first post about smaller and bigger plant.

Trying to figure out this middle ground.

 

[plutosmoke]

I think the discussion should be when is the best time to pluck! that is the middle ground. that is where proponents of "fan leaves are good for the plants" and "fan leaves block to smaller nugs" meet.

 

[GuerrillaRed]

I'm interested in reading everything on this subject.

I've always been told to trim the lower half of branches in the first week of flowering and then anything else will stress the plant out. However, I would love to know about this as trimming the big fan leaves does logically seem super practical.

Although logically would you want to snip big fan leaves towards the end of flowering like week six or seven when the plant is bulking up?

 

[Lyfespan]

I pluck and top everything upon transplant before flowering, 2 weeks later into flower they go and get stripped again no top of course, before stretching stops stripped again, 2-3 weeks usually, leaves get all pulled again before chop.

plucking and topping is all for more tops and to bring lowers up to speed with the rest of the tops, i also throw some pinching of the faster shoots

 

[St. Phatty]

Im wonddering has anyone seen any good tests or tried this before to see if theres a magic middle ground of removing some fan leaves for better light , but not butchering the plant?

The plant does a lot of work to make the leaves, and the energy in the leaves is in a form that the plant can most readily use.

The energy for the plants is to feed today's photosynthesis. I wonder if timing wise, it is best to remove fan leaves right before lights off.


I think part of the trick is finding good tools that allow you to deal with the problem of fan leaves shading internodes, quickly.

Cutting the leaves is only one way. I find those things with the wire in them, that the supermarket uses to tie up produce with ... that's one example of a tool that can move bud sites into the light.

I've moved leaves behind bud sites ... so the plant can "drink from the milk shake" (use the energy from the leaf to grow bud) AND still get light.


Another option is using LED spotlights on lower bud sites that might be suffering from too much fan leaf shade.

 

[fabvariousk]

When growing indoors there is little need to keep fans along the mainstem very long. Aside from blocking light to buds they also store nitrogen that is not needed later in flowering and only adds to your cure time.

 

[Smittyfun83]

So trimming during flower stage doesn't stress the plant? I'm curious what energy is used when healing from injury vs bud development.

 

[Guest]

In both veg and flower I will pluck the misc fan leaves and the fan leaves of internodes that are larger than 1/2" +/-.
I take a break when I initiate flower and pick back up after the stretch has stopped. I don't do many leaves on a plant each day.
This works for me and I am very happy with the speed, quality and yield of my garden.

Re-reading post 2 in this thread regarding the plant priortizing reproduction. I think that the amount of energy it takes to seal off the broken stem of a fan leaf is relatively small when weighed against the importance of self preservation.

 

[troutman]

It's better to do as much training, pruning, etc. in the vegetative period as plants are less likely to suffer stress then.
Try to minimize what you do to a plant in the flowering period.

 

[maimunji]

So big question here is do buds need direct light? I agree big fan leaves can stole nutrients from buds but fan leaves is good indicator what happening with your plant and feeding regime especially when you are noob and strain isn't dealed. Even when leaves is removed i can't see how light will hit bottom branches on main stems if your light stay above plants, top buds will shade bottom buds on same branch with this small sugar leaves. Do you need to remove this small leaves? Even if you remove them branch grow straight up to the lights will shade everything to the bottom unless you supercrop or lst this branch its only way to provide lights to the bottom.
So do buds need direct light?

 

[mango420]

So big question here is do buds need direct light? I agree big fan leaves can stole nutrients from buds but fan leaves is good indicator what happening with your plant and feeding regime especially when you are noob and strain isn't dealed. Even when leaves is removed i can't see how light will hit bottom branches on main stems if your light stay above plants, top buds will shade bottom buds on same branch with this small sugar leaves. Do you need to remove this small leaves? Even if you remove them branch grow straight up to the lights will shade everything to the bottom unless you supercrop or lst this branch its only way to provide lights to the bottom.
So do buds need direct light?

Depends, yes and no. It is strain dependant. Kush's will grow solid nice buds with no direct light, at least the ones I've grown. Almost all other strains if the bud sight wasn't getting direct light, the buds were no where near as big or dense or resinous as those beside it getting direct light.

 

[seeded]

From what I've seen shade leaves exist to bring height, side branch leaves grow the branches they're on and the bud leaves grow the buds next to them. The plant doesn't share it's energy so that the branches all grow at the same rate, buds get to the same size, etc. so I tuck and fold all the shade leaves until they start blocking light from hitting the side branch ones and I do the same with them to the bud ones as well. I try to leave them on for as long as possible because every leaf that gets light provides the plant with energy but I prioritize the buds over trim, trim over shade leaf, etc. so I make sure that the plant gets light in that order too.

 

[DocTim420]

A couple of experiences that I have had--

1. Removing leaves will cause the plant to produce replacement leaves (but smaller sized).
2. Do not remove more than 25% of any plant's foliage (unless you like playing Nurse Florence Nightingale).
3. Do not remove fan leaves in or just before flowering...a plant's leaf is a storehouses of nutrients, including potassium--which is needed for bud and bloom development.
4. Removing leaves will increase the Plant Available Si--but only temporary, as the plant tissues of defoliated plants will usually have less Si concentrations than "non-defoliated" plants.
5. Strain specific--I have an Afghan that behaves better when the large fan leaves are removed at each node a few weeks before flipping to 12/12. If the leaves are not removed, then about 4-5 weeks in flower I will need to fish out the "retired" yellow leaves (this plant requires almost twice the veg time too). BTW, the remaining leaves are just fine--all green....and the leaf removal has nothing to do with "blocking light" or "providing energy", pure housekeeping.
6. Improved lighting arrangements will overcome concerns of large fan leaves shadowing bud sites. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west--but our indoor lights are usually stuck at "high noon" (no angular light in the morning or afternoon). So, two lamps instead of one will help--instead of a single 1k lamp, think about using two 600k lamps (1.2k total). Two lamps that overlap have a greater light penetration capability than a single lamp with twice the wattage.
7. The harshest smoke I ever had, was from grower that stripped his plants clean while in flower--and he was an "organic fanatic" hippy.
8. Do a side-by-side test...same strain, same pot size, cloned the same day, transplanted the same day, harvested the same day--then compare. What works for me might not work for you...and vice versa.

 

[RetroGrow]

Fan leaves are there for a reason. They provide nutrition to the plant and all it's buds. Sun light goes right through fan leaves! When they yellow, get rid of them. Small plants have buds all the way to the bottom because they are so small. The whole small plant is a top, which have the biggest buds: budsickles. Vertical lighting pretty much eliminates the problem of not as much light getting to the bottoms. Distance from the light source is the issue, not leaves "blocking" the sun.