Landraces . Will we ever smoke what we once had? If no is there a Way back?

[therevverend]

If "landrace" is something that is being maintained by humans, what do you call cannabis that existed before humans discovered it?!

Wild cannabis.

If a cannabis population was brought to certain area by humans, who then grow them; watering them and fertilizing them, then, imo, you can't really say that the "population has adapted to the area", because these have been kept going with human assistance; water and nutrients given to them by humans.

The plant has to adapt to the local conditions. The plants that don't die and mature at the right time. Traditional agricultural methods don't involve sprinkler systems, constant watering and feeding.

The photo-period, how dry the area is, how hot or cool, what kind of soil, etc. Humans are watering the plants but if it's Morocco for instance, there's not much water to give them. So Moroccan landraces tend to be drought tolerant. Afghanistan has cold winters so the landraces finish faster then plants further south.

The obvious one I mentioned earlier was that potency increases towards the equator, lowers further from the equator. The question is why? Finding potent high yielding strains that finish in the middle of September is difficult and breeding Autoflower strains is difficult. You're fighting the natural tendency of the plant.

To play the devil's advocate, what if by working with all these indoor Indica/hybrids and breeding within the same narrow gene pool (OG Kush, Skunk, etc.) we're creating new "land races" that will be unique to our own time and revered by generations in the future?

They're heirloom not landraces but yes of course. My favorite strains are probably 'California landrace' the strains from Northern California that I was growing in the mid 90s. And to a lesser extent Vancouver Island and the surrounding islands.

The old guys who bred the strains had been growing since the 1960s. Sinsemilla bred from mixing Thai, Mexi, and Afghani landraces. They'd had time to acclimate to the wet cool Northern California autumn. Early finish, high potency, heavy, loud fruity and skunky flavors. The plant shape was easy to tie down into blackberry bushes or nettles to make them difficult to spot from the air.

The climate has changed in Northern Cali the season is a month longer. The old time growers were finished by the end of September. Now everyone finishes at the end of October. Bigger yielding plants and everything smells like fuel or cleaner. When you see and smell a plant you know it's a pot plant. I like those smells and highs but I prefer the fruit and skunk smells.

 

[Treevly]

To play the devil's advocate, what if by working with all these indoor Indica/hybrids and breeding within the same narrow gene pool (OG Kush, Skunk, etc.) we're creating new "land races" that will be unique to our own time and revered by generations in the future?

You might theoretically have very superior strains, but they would not be landrace unless you put them in the wild and let them pollinate their brains out for 100 or 200 years or whatever the criteria are. There are various definitions:

"A crop cultivar or animal breed that has been developed through traditional farming practices for many years in a particular locale without influence from modern agricultural science."

and

"A landrace is a domesticated, locally adapted, traditional variety of a species of animal or plant that has developed over time, through adaptation to its natural and cultural environment of agriculture and pastoralism, and due to isolation from other populations of the species."

However, those definitions don't account for plant strains which are simply wild and have never been domesticated. However, the two - wild, and semi-wild - would all be self pollinating and free from selective breeding, for better or worse.

 

[therevverend]

However, those definitions don't account for plant strains which are simply wild and have never been domesticated. However, the two - wild, and semi-wild - would all be self pollinating and free from selective breeding, for better or worse.

Because those aren't landraces those are wild plants. Wild cannabis is very rare and it's hard to prove whether or not it's actually wild and not feral. Feral is cannabis that was once cultivated but escaped. Almost all the cannabis people think of as wild is actually feral. Someone needs to make a sticky explaining these terms because we stoners get them jumbled up all the time.

Jodrey is a good talker it'd be fun to smoke a joint and talk ganja with him. I disagree with him about the carbon filter stuff. From the start, in the late 70s when HID lights first appeared, people didn't want stinky strains. That's why Northern Lights has always been so popular it doesn't stink up the grow.

There's more problems with the old stinky Afghani strains then just the smell. A lot of them were prone to grey mold, low yielding, a lot of them had couch lock, heavy head type highs. I think many were eliminated for a lot of the reason Sam the Skunkman says he bred Sweet Skunk and not Skunk Skunk.

That said as long as I can remember skunky strains have been loved. A lot of growers never cared about smells. Growing in a barn or in a hole underground in the country it's not a big deal. I remember a friend in the 90s rowing in the city, got Skunk #1 because he didn't give a fuck wanted the stink. He was disappointed because it didn't stink.

The continued hybridization is probably the main factor. You don't see many real Afghan strains everything is a mix. OG Kush is a perfect example. It's so hybridized no one really knows what it is. The skunky Indicas got lost in the mix. I miss lifting a tarp to enter a grow room and smelling the skunk.

 

[Treevly]

I don't care if it's wild or landrace, but there must be wild stuff around. If it's growing wild in the highlands of Papua New Guinea, for example, it may cost you your life to find it. "Headhunter Skunk?"

All dogs came from wolves, so that's an example of how far things can change with selective breeding.

Kozel beer, on the other hand, never changes.

 

[GoatCheese]

Wild cannabis.

The plant has to adapt to the local conditions. The plants that don't die and mature at the right time. Traditional agricultural methods don't involve sprinkler systems, constant watering and feeding.

You mentioned watering and feeding "landraces" yourself, but now i agree that plant adapts to certain area if it's only sown and harvested but not much else is done to it.


Well, growers and seed banks will always call local seed-lines "landraces" and we still have to figure out where cannabis grows without human assistance and for how long.

The obvious one I mentioned earlier was that potency increases towards the equator, lowers further from the equator. The question is why? Finding potent high yielding strains that finish in the middle of September is difficult and breeding Autoflower strains is difficult. You're fighting the natural tendency of the plant.

THC, CBD could be higher in hotter and more humid areas because all the insects, molds and funghi. These compounds are anti-septic etc. so these plants could be naturally stronger because more things are attacking them. ...just a thought

 

[Treevly]

"THC, CBD could be higher in hotter and more humid areas because all the insects...."

I don't know if that's how pot works, but that's how coffee works. Caffeine is a chemical insecticide. It is a central nervous system stimulant, and if bugs consume it, they get a big chemical ZAP. Likewise, tea.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[Cvh]

THC, CBD could be higher in hotter and more humid areas because all the insects, molds and funghi. These compounds are anti-septic etc. so these plants could be naturally stronger because more things are attacking them. ...just a thought

True. And it's even possible to replicate this into your indoor garden without the introduction of living harmfull insects or funghi.

It involves the practice of adding Chitin as an amendment to your soil.
Chitin is one of the substances found into the outershell of Insects, Crustaceans (ie. Crabs, Lobsters,...) and Funghi.

Chitin will trigger the plants defense mechanism. And one of the main (of interesting to us) Cannabis plants defensive reaction is to increase the resin production!
And also general strenght.

I have several products which contain Chitin and other insect frass. A good complete organic Cannabis fertilizermix (Veg/Flower) which contain Chitin is easy to find. And same goes for Chitin containing amendments.

I personally prefer insect frass as my Chitin source.
https://growingorganic.com/soil-compost/amendments/insect-frass/
https://skunkmagazine.com/stunning-cannabis-flowers-chitin-sulfur-silicone/

Here is some more info regarding Chitin, Chitosan, Chitinase:

To most effectively use Chitin you need to understand the three related compounds.
Chitin
Chitosan
Chitinase

Chitin is a compound that makes up the shells of crustaceans/arthropods. Not only that, but chitin helps form the cell walls of fungi (I will share the importance of this later). And even more good news, it is a main component of the exoskeleton of insects. One thing you also need to be aware of is that it is found in the 'skin' of worms.

Chitosan is a compound that is created from the breakdown of chitin. Chitosan is the product that you may find most commercially available as both a plant growth regulator and a "no risk" systematic pesticide. Note: per my current understanding most chitosan is produced using a synthetic process on an organic product, thus is not truly organic. Not only that, but if you are using it to reverse an outbreak, it may not be the best option. I will share a better option in a minute.

Chitinase is the naturally occurring enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. I will repeat that point, it is the central point you need to know in order to organically reverse a disease (and possibly even insect) outbreak using chitin! Chitinase is the enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. Some living organisms produce this chitinase enzyme. Most of these organisms are bacteria (and some fungi). Some plants even produce this enzyme in order to fight off disease (this is the "system" that we will use to model our pest control treatment). Anyways, many of the chitinase producing microorganisms are known crustacean pathogens. These organisms produce this enzyme so they can break down crustacean shells (in order to eat it, or get through it to invade the shellfish itself). While this may seem bad, it can be used to our organic advantage.

Ok, now that you are a little familiar with each of these substances let's start talking pest control. There are really two stages of pest control: preventative and reactive.

PREVENTATIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin and chitosan
Like I mentioned, chitin is found on the outer parts of fungi and bugs. Some plants use this to their advantage. They have receptors that sense chitin. When the plant detects chitin (especially in high concentrations) it assumes that it is being attacked by either an insect or a fungal disease. The plant will ramp up its defenses. It will thicken and strengthen its cell walls. If it can, it will start making chitinase.

Why would a plant make chitinase if it thinks it is being attacked? Well as you know, chitinase breaks chitin down. Hence, when the fungi or insect comes in contact with the plant, the plant will excrete these enzymes. When the enzyme touches the chitin on the pest, it will break it down. As the chitin breaks down the pest either becomes vulnerable and weak or even flat out die. In this way some plants produce their own 'insecticide' and 'fungicide', albeit in very limited quantities.

So why apply chitosan?
Well, plants can react to chitosan in the same way as chitin. When they detect it they will beef up their defenses. Hence companies sell chitosan as a systematic pesticide. Could the same effect be achieved by using chitin itself? Yes. I understand it though that most companies sell chitosan because it is more soluble and can be better mixed and sprayed as a solution.

I also understand that as the plant works to strengthen its cell walls etc, it must create new growth. Hence chitin and chitosan are used as plant growth regulators that increase plant growth. When you apply the product the plant will put energy into growth as it tries to defend itself against the apparent attack.

In summary, when you apply chitin or even chitosan you will stimulate the plant to beef up its defenses. In this way your plant will be less susceptible to diseases and insects. This is most effective before the pant is being attacked. If an outbreak is already in progress, there is a better option.

Now that we know how to use chitin products to help prevent outbreaks, how do we use them to correct outbreaks that are in progress?

REACTIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin, chitosan, AND chitinase.
Suppose that your plant (be it tomato, squash, etc. or even a fruit tree) is already being attacked by a pest. What can you do? Applying chitin or chitosan can't hurt, but my experience suggests that there is a more effective alternative.

Plants can kill fungi/bugs using the chitinase enzyme, so why can't you? The idea is to use the plants natural model to provide your own pest control. You simply need to make a concentrated amount of chitinase and apply it. You will effectively be applying a concentrated dose of a natural pesticide!

So how do you make chitinase? You let bacteria do it for you! It's pretty simple really. Get your hands on some chitin and ferment it. As it ferments, chitinase will be the main compound helping the bacteria eat it. If you apply the mixture AS it is fermenting you will be applying a large dose of the chitinase enzyme, and as such, will be able to help the plant kill off the disease/insect outbreak.

HOW TO PRODUCE CHITINASE using fermentation
Remember, chitin is the main component of crustacean shells. Save the shells when you eat crabs, shrimp etc. and dry them out. If you live near the coast you are in luck. Many people/companies see these shells as waste. If you can find someone who is getting rid of some, tell them you will gladly take them off their hands. If not, buy a crustacean shell fertilizer; something like "crab shell fertilizer".

Now that you have your shells you need to turn them into powder in order to maximize surface area and increase break down. Simply put them in a blender and puree until powder.

Ok, now that you have your powder chitin you need to let the bacteria do their thing. This is best achieved if you inoculate it with chitin eating bacteria. The simplest way to do this is to find a company that sells non-sterilized chitosan that was produced by using fermentation. The chitosan will have the appropriate bacteria. If you can't get some non-sterilized naturally produced chitosan that is ok, you will just have to wait for nature to blow in some of the desired bacteria on its own (leave open outside for best natural inoculation).

Once you have your ingredients take a bucket full of of non-chlorinated water and add your chitin. Next add your inoculant and wait until fermentation begins.

To speed up the process, it is beneficial to aerate the bucket of water with a fish-tank air pump (as if you were making actively aerated compost tea). Also, warming the water can promote bacteria production. The temperature depends on which type of bacteria you want to encourage. Usually you want it over 80 degree F and below 135 degrees F.

Just like with other organic pest control practices timing is important! You want to spray the solution while there is the maximum concentration of chitinase. This is done while fermentation is happening rapidly. The easiest way to tell is to smell the product. Once the smell changes it is ready. The longer you wait, the less chitin there will be, and hence less chitinase. So smell often and spray quickly.

Spray the substance on your plant. Over and under leaves, on the bark, and even on the soil around the root zone. That's it, your home produced natural and organic pesticide!

Note: think ahead for the next outbreak. Leave a quart or so of the solution in the bucket and let ferment for a few more days (until fermenting is over). Place in an airtight jar and save. You will use this to inoculate your next batch.

Warning about concentrated doses of chitinase
I have a friend who grows worms. She threw some extra chitin "brew" in one of her worm piles to feed them. The thing she didn't think about was that worms also have chitin in their skin. The brew killed the entire worm population just like it can kill fungi and bugs.

In other words, be careful and only use active chitin brews during an outbreak. It is likely that using chitinase brews can kill beneficial organisms as well as pests. To correct this, once the brew has had time to do its thing and break down (a few days to a week) it is best to re-introduce beneficial organisms to the plant and soil. Spray your plant and soil with a compost/manure tea or simply sprinkle some compost over the dirt and water those good guys into the soil.

Note two: The above process can also be used to produce chitosan on your own so you do not have to purchase it for your preventative applications. Simply let fermentation finish before applying.

 

[romanoweed]

I think we could now all agree that there are 3 different Kinds of Cannabis-Races going from Natural to Influenced like shown now:
1: Wild Landraces growing without any influence of Humans.

2: Races wich had influence from Humans . Namely the ones wich are reproduced by Humans and acording to that arent evolving trough Natural Selection, regardless if they are retaind from doing so trough Barriers in the continual Process of Natural Evolution, like trough the unnatural usage of fertilized Soil, and the analogous possible let go in open Polination, or even if they are retained from it trough just their unnatural Displacement and and therefore have lost the Bound to (or the Inclusion in)the continous Evolution, or regardless if they are rather loosely selected for Reusage in other years by personal likeing(or claimed primitive Selectinon( whatever primitive means, hahaha))

3: Races wich are Selected with modern Teknques and regardless if you call this Decluded from continous Evolution or unnatural(for shure you can call this unnatural, but phylosophical also exeptional Natural) was going trough Human Hands once and was Changed. Like for example Food-Plants getting up to 10 times fater and therefore was breed goal-oriented. --- mostly called modern Hybrids or just modern Breeds(even tho the word Hybrid is also often used for the Process of Outcrossing wich is very confusing to use alone without the word Modern)








What are now this Plants we talk often?.. well, we dont ever know for shure out of two reasons: per Example i go to Columbia and find a wild Strain wich is quiet indigeen, clearly no Skunk , wich is veeery Strong, namely a Yuwel of Weed.. Is it now a Wild Landrace? I dont know cause we have very wague ideas in 2000 what an Unchanged Natural Plant would look like, cause Humans changed the whole Planet, changed the Natural Bounderies(therefore changed the natural Evolution) from up to down and also did their own Landrce Breeds wich might have a big influence to wild species or might not, and who has Evidence for what pretends to be a wild Species ? i dont know . There may be some Evidence . An Evidence might be Stability of Genes, maby?
And the secound Problem (or rather a Problem in Language-Definition)is when i get some Plants from a indigeen tribe in Columbia wich i know was breed by their Ancestors before. And it is a Yewel of Weed. Is this now a Landrace, was this breed primitively or is it rather a modern Breed? I couldnt define it without to know they didnt use their Brain. If they just used their Feel, yeah call it Primitive, ok, but do you know it was JUST FEEL? Cause this brought us at least Yuwels, so These Plants should probably called modern Breeds(modern Hybrids). And People often act like this Plants breed by indigen Tribes has per se to be not Traded around and have per se not to be Selected. Im not shure about that. Who actually knows that? I never heard of a such an Evidence.


I Actualy tend to believe that These People exchanged Seeds in smaller Scales, and they selected them and while dooing so saw like Patterns acure, and therfore learnd to further reproduce this Aperance of Behaviors, thats why i wouldnt just call this per se Primitive.


So my Solution is to actually call All Human Breeds Landraces but dont call this ethnic Tribes Primitive unless you have evidence that they were. (I also dont wanna Claim the Opposite, hahaha) so i wouldnt use the Assumtion Of them not having had a Tecknique a Parameter to Verify if something is Landrace or Modern Breed/Hybrid. Unless you have the Evidence for someone to not have a Technique.
Or eventl. we call everything touched by man moder Breeds. But the Definition of Landrace to be Decluded from Natural Evolution is very good. Thats why i would also rename modern Hybrids to Landraces. Me, but i alone cant doo that. So i just use the two diffrent Terms : Wild Landrace, and Landrace/domesticated Landraces . And modern Breeds/Hybrids i call acording to the Situation. Like this or that...


And the Word Heirloom is actually identical to the Word Landrace, only that Heirlooms by Definition arent touched/changed or selected so much and more loosely are maintained trough open Pollination. So i dont Need this therm so much cause it is even more vague...

 

[Mengsk]

You make several good points. Being outlawed is what created the cultivation techniques varieties and market we have today. People mention the 1980s as a time for weed which was also the height of the crack epidemic. Now we have opiod/fentanyl epidemic.

I like TychoMonolyth's definitions:

"heirloom = Recent history and passed down through generations with a specific lineage. Some are even listed in seed libraries going back 150 years.
landrace = Genetically adapted to an environment and have no specific lineage."

Heirloom is open pollinated, true breeding, inbred although to what extent. As far as I know there isn't a formal definition for 3 plants vs 300. One I would consider inbred and the other heirloom or landrace. Not necessarily identical but all distinctly similar and I would agree cultivated by humans. Much different from wild or undomesticated. May require more maintenance and care. Many seeds available now might be described as inbred lines of modern hybrids. This almost requires a new definition. All three or four of the plant parents can be hybrids. Landrace isn't as easy or clear to define. I would say a time before indoor growing at least. Hybrids make the names less clear. In order to identify a landrace you must say where it came from e.g. C. or S. American, SE. Asian, African etc. Not influenced by modern hybrid genetics.

If you set up a commercial 60 day harvest then you ruin or displace that crop. High altitude tropical plants will not grow in Washington or Oregon as they will on equatorial mountain tops with longer growing seasons. Without import laws changing this is why you see mostly hybrids that finish in northern climates. It is a direction to go in where people want thc without strong sunlight. From a home or hobby grower's perspective using natural resources to grow cannabis commercially at scale is a climate and environment unfriendly plan. What I mean is compared to natural farming or full season tropical plants, throughout recent history the introduction of colonial minded people displaces removes or if you prefer pollutes contaminates the local surrounding area region and market economy etc.

Now with legalization we aren't there yet but people can say I want to try growing Colombian, Mexican, Honduran, Jamaican, Nepalese, maybe N. or C. African, Thai etc. As in, specifically no Afghani no Hindu Kush no Pakistani 0%. We are not talking about people this is marijuana or cannabis weed etc. I may appreciate the Hindu Kush area's beauty and oppose war. I can still want to have short season indica varieties separate from sativa. Being technical it is difficult to separate the science definitions used from social acceptance or culture surrounding the plant. Meaning be aware of people who argue extensively about the definition of a word whatever your view may be. 100% pure of old school from the region country area people tribe etc whatever you want to call it, that to me is landrace.

This is not the majority of what is grown. From cannabis being illegal it is still the same f1 hybrids that bulk up etc. The same cultural influence that criminalized the plant and created the black market is still present today. It is the black market with a tax stamp on it. Not free cannabis as in natural farmed landraces and import/export without restriction. Criminalizing the plant drove it underground which led to the "mutant" varieties. Those selection criteria could not be further from what you would want to look for in an open unrestricted environment. Instead of people coming forward and saying it's time to get away from black market indoor cultivated varieties, we don't hear that. Just more marketing surrounding the black market varieties. So called legal grows are really just large scale black market style grows with tax stamps. A field of cannabis, open pollinated and harvested once per year. That does not compare, it is not even in the same realm of existence, as a greenhouse filled up with tiny plastic containers and employees and bags of fertilizer. With a fast, bulking, short, hybrid. There is no comparison, not 10 or 50 percent, 0. With legal production having that position across the board, landraces are not given much of a platform to shine. Legal producers are either incapable or uninterested in growing landraces which means unavailable for most people. Not sure where to post this but legal producers are now growing 100% of the same variety. Everything is called OG. Does that mean OG "wins?" Is it now the most expensive, or the least expensive, strain around? Same difference? I could comment either here in the landrace thread or in the OG thread. Whatever that same plant is at the dispensaries, however desirable or marketable its profile may be, the simple fact that it's everywhere means it's time for something different. Might only be for a small % of users but nonetheless having 100% couch lock on the menu I feel is an insult to and attack on my intelligence.

 

[romanoweed]

I like this more:
The most importend Parameter is just like very detailed described above : the Decluding of certain Strains from the Continous Natural Evolution. This is what makes a wild Landrace to a socalled Landrace or domesticated Landrace if you wanna clarify the Therm.
And the Therm Heirloom in my Understanding is more vague and is not used for more specific Lineages than Landraces are, no it is the Opposite. Heirlooms are just often open pollinated as opposite to Landraces wich may be open Polinated or may be primitive Selected. And since some Experts seem to per se know they are Primitively selected but actually not know that, or does they? Since that, they start misplacing the Therm Heirloom and call Landraces Heilooms. But would they accept that they make wrong assumtions, then they wouldnt use the Classsification of the Parameter -Primitive- and therfore every Human Touched Plant would be a Landrace (Decluding Plant out of Natural Evolution) *** ***and the Therm Heirloom would be used for vaguely selected/openpollinated Race, humantouched. Or a no specific Lineage Exemplar of Landrace.


In short : the Determation of being decluded from the Natural Evolution is Right, and clear. But the determation of Primitiveness is assumed,not possible and îs wrong.


*** let alone the far Crosses wich include strains all over the globe***

 

[Cvh]

In my opinion truely Wild Cannabis can only be found in it's place of origin in Central Asia.

It were humans that brought Cannabis to every part of the World and cultivated it in that location.

Cannabis has a fixed place of origin.

The 'Wild' plants we see today outside Cannabis place of origin are in my opinion Feral instead of Wild. These are plants that have escaped from human cultivation and managed to reproduce into the Wild.

Here is a link to an article about Cannabis place of origin and it's spread around the world throughout History.
https://www.livescience.com/48337-marijuana-history-how-cannabis-travelled-world.html

This map shows how marijuana spread throughout the world, from its origins on the steppes of Central Asia.
Credit: Barney Warf, University of Kansas

And just as an interesting reference, this is a map of the African-American slave trade between 1650-1860 AD:

 

[GoatCheese]

In my opinion truely Wild Cannabis can only be found in it's place of origin in Central Asia.

It were humans that brought Cannabis to every part of the World and cultivated it in that location.

Cannabis has a fixed place of origin.

The 'Wild' plants we see today outside Cannabis place of origin are in my opinion Feral instead of Wild. These are plants that have escaped from human cultivation and managed to reproduce into the Wild.

Here is a link to an article about Cannabis place of origin and it's spread around the world throughout History.
https://www.livescience.com/48337-marijuana-history-how-cannabis-travelled-world.html

This map shows how marijuana spread throughout the world, from its origins on the steppes of Central Asia.
Credit: Barney Warf, University of Kansas
View Image

And just as an interesting reference, this is a map of the African-American slave trade between 1650-1860 AD:

View Image

According to Phylos Galaxy, most African sativas seem to be related to SE Asian cannabis, so that map is not correct.

I think sativas arrived to Africa via trade companies like British and Dutch East Indian Companies

 

[romanoweed]

Yes chv, this is the Last therm we didnt clarify so clearly: Feral Strains. It really never is given that an Selvcontaining/selvsurviving Strain, even it grows Nationwide Fieldwise is a Landrace. If this , i call it Theories; are true. Cause it is still controversial discussed if Cannabis came from central or rather more west asia. And also if it really was brought over the whole world trough Humans, and analoge from then on grew wild/ became Feral Cannabis. There seems some Evidence but it isnt like a very prooven Thing. But like you said this bespoken Re-surviving Strains are called Feral Cannabis. It is just that cause they managed to survive at the new Destination forever you could questioning if they actually have became Wild Landraces again. Probably there are similar Features in Feral Strains like in wild Landraces. But you still shouldnt deny that they are Feral.

 

[Cvh]

According to Phylos Galaxy, most African sativas seem to be related to SE Asian cannabis, so that map is not correct.

I think sativas arrived to Africa via trade companies like British and Dutch East Indian Companies

Yes, very true. It's been proven indeed before that this map from the University Kansas is on some points incorrect.

The cart about the slave trade I just provided as an interesting reference above this map.
Do you happen to have a map of the British and Dutch East Indian Companies traderoutes between Asia and Africa? Might be interesting to see how it correlates.

 

[Mengsk]

I don't want to argue even though it is interesting. Any traveller man or animal can carry seeds and/or pollen across land bridges with or without boats. Why would a bird not be able to eat cannabis seeds and migrate somewhere else. Especially dinosaur birds. Debating with scientists can get weird because people can be such know it alls or very stubborn like talking about a different religion to someone. You think a Dutch slave ship is the "real" event of cannabis landing on another continent, not something else in 10,000 years? Well I would not even know where to start. It is like the guy from a famous seed company thinking he conquered the world and invented cannabis. At the end of the day that picture from above is a guy from Kansas writing a story. It doesn't mean it is accurate. This does get confusing because we do have slave trade in our history (US and Europe and elsewhere). So the history book is going to be a cover up by definition. No professor from Kansas is going to give a detailed history account of slavery, at least not that I am aware of. As in chapter one this is who we stole the cannabis from, this is who participated and so on. So instead they write a fictional tale, a story book or a made up history. That is what is printed. We aren't reading a story in ancient Sanskrit or from native people surrounding those areas. We see a white European man in a colonial settlement making up names and stories. History in the context of colonial wars genocides and disputes for land power wealth etc. All other books aren't translated and integrated.

 

[Cvh]

^^Studies have been done using Palynology.
Palynology is a science that involves the study of (fossilised) pollen to know when a certain species of plant arrived in a certain region in history.

https://www.thoughtco.com/palynology-archaeological-study-of-pollen-172154

Palynology, is a type of environmental archaeology in which microscopes are used to analyse the range of plant pollens present in archaeological layers: these can tell us what crops, vegetation or ground cover were likely to have been present when a layer was deposited.

 

[meizzwang]

^^Studies have been done using Palynology.
Palynology is a science that involves the study of (fossilised) pollen to know when a certain species of plant arrived in a certain region in history.

https://www.thoughtco.com/palynology-archaeological-study-of-pollen-172154

Trouble with science is two scientists can reach 2 different conclusions interpreting the same data. Science is the best we have, but the true way to verify the past is to go back in time (no thanks, Einstein!)

 

[Treevly]

Seeds can blow or be washed by spring floods into streams and rivers, and then to sea, to float to who knows where? Seeds are consumed by birds and some are emitted undigested from the birds onto lands. Pollen is much more mobile, as pollen could blow from a valley in Afghanistan, catch an updraft, and end up anywhere. A single bit of pollen is so light that if it got blown up into higher wind elevations, it could travel around the world.

 

[Treevly]

I missed the significance of the reference to slave trade.

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

Is the concept of a landrace possible in a rapidly changing environment or is it just a fiction invented by people with more imagination than they have grasp on reality? Would it be possible for a strain to acclimatize to ever increasing CO2 levels or is the naturally occurring, perfectly bred outdoor strain for mysterious tropical mountain valley always going to be slightly behind the curve in that respect?
Can a dude in Thailand or Afghanistan really breed more genetically unique weed strains than me just because of the remote location? From his perspective, I live in a remote location.