landrace phenos from s1 seeds....

[englishrick]

cheese crossed with whitewidow seems to be confusing loads of peeps,,,

^^^its not a bad pic,,,,it shows how the cheese grows low low low, an how them side branches allmost reach the same hight as the top ,,,when peeps ask "is this the real cheese",, i just show them that

in my area the big name is blues,,,,,so everything gets mistaken for blues,,,,its a clusterfuck,,,im lucky i stayed out of it,,,,if i ever gave up my cheese mother it would be impossible to find it again in this mess of fake cheese clones

do you think EM`s smelly1 is better than the blues indi?,,,i ask because i think i might be smoking EM`s smelly1 everytime i buy a bag of blues from my local dealer an its still better than my blues clone

 

[OrganicMonkey]

I was thinking earlier about DNA sequences being 'grouped'. It's a question in my mind if sequences are significantly passed in groups. This seems difficult to observe, since other than in a lab it's always a 50% 50% inheritance. It's probably easier observed in later generations, when groups are watered down enough to see what translates into trait grouping. Even if this were true, that is a lot of traits to group after so much mixing with other traits. To many for chance, I don't know of any natural tendencies as science isn't always law, that allow of such a occurrence.

What I mean by trait groups is that we can see how traits have a sequence but I know very little about a large sequence. The traits only 'break apart' half each generation, so it's difficult to imagine traits breaking up more or less (less for grouping of traits). Basically perhaps one sequence that results in a trait, sometimes 'sticks' or stays linked for an observable number of times to another trait.

So much of what we do know about genetics, it's all chance and shuffling. I questioned the method to the shuffling, that is what is in question. Perhaps one 'card' sticks to another card/trait, any number of times for any specific sequence. A trait can come from a very small sequence, it depends what the trait refers too. If it's something visible it's usually a very complex trait, but not with inherited disabilities.

 

[englishrick]

selfing is very different to m/f breeding,,,,,breeders use selfing as a test to see what traits the line is homozygote for,,

someone please correct me if im wrong

 

[indifferent]

cheese crossed with whitewidow seems to be confusing loads of peeps,,,

^^^its not a bad pic,,,,it shows how the cheese grows low low low, an how them side branches allmost reach the same hight as the top ,,,when peeps ask "is this the real cheese",, i just show them that

in my area the big name is blues,,,,,so everything gets mistaken for blues,,,,its a clusterfuck,,,im lucky i stayed out of it,,,,if i ever gave up my cheese mother it would be impossible to find it again in this mess of fake cheese clones

do you think EM`s smelly1 is better than the blues indi?,,,i ask because i think i might be smoking EM`s smelly1 everytime i buy a bag of blues from my local dealer an its still better than my blues clone

The Smelly One rocks, it is very potent, more potent than Cheese, yields more than Cheese, but they have a different bud structure and the Smelly One is more stony. How it compares to The Blues I'm not sure, been a while since I smoked either.

Cheese, I can't get away from the damn stuff, went to Holland, it's everywhere! At least in Holland they all seem to have the Exodus cut. I have seen and smoked at least one other Cheese in Holland though, plus Big Buddha's Cheese is around and there is that Blue Cheese he did, which seems to be very popular.

 

[yoss33]

Heh,
I like that Cheese bashing, indifferent
Skunk #1 seems to have drifted towards the indica "power" skunks through the years and breeders' selection. The giggles are gone. Now it's just the strain with the tolerance built-up that others measure against

 

[englishrick]

the name powerskunk brings back memories,,,,,,amsterdam seems to lable any crap skunk as powerskunk,,,,,,,,its exactly that typa crap phenos i dont want.......the dutch piz me off with this high yealding selection...

 

[indifferent]

Hi Yoss

Reason I hate Cheese so much is that people hold it up as the best there is and quite frankly, it isn't. That and the taste/smell I find horrid, smells like dry dusty something mixed with sweat, that sweat smell/taste I just do not like at all. The third thing is the high, it's really poor imho, just a vacant, stare at the wall kind of effect and longterm use of Cheese leads many people to depression.

I know for a fact there are/were far better phenos of Skunk #1 and that in itself makes me annoyed at Cheese.

The Dutch spent too long breeding under HPS selecting for early finish and high yield, it ruined everything. Skunk #1 used to be mostly sativa, it isn't these days, same can be said for many other lines, Cali Orange for example, used to be a potent, tasty Afghan and very good indeed, it's now a generic skunky thing with only a weak orange taste and little potency.

 

[englishrick]

yeh man,,,Cali O used to taste like sunshine orange,,,your ight indi,,,Cali O is just a powerskunk now with a faint orange taste,,,,the dutch fuked us all selecting for high yeald and quick flower,,, the dutch acted like kids whenthey gotahold of real hybrids,,still they dont know how to controle the populations!!,

 

[yoss33]

I think the main problem of the Dutch is that they breed with too few plants. In a large population the chances to find a plant that is both better in high and yield are bigger. In a small population chances are you'll find either an yielder OR a good high. And they select for the yield. Besides, by selecting single best plants (to produce the next gen) they quickly bottleneck the populations as they lose important genes. We see the result - few good "strains", or rather individual plants (result of the selection among thousands of plants) and no progress after that. Only hybrids of these few "elite" plants.
They have to step back (throw all these crippled plants) and start again with more true breeding if they want to keep the progress.

 

[indifferent]

Exactly right Yoss, you described the problem perfectly there mate.

I would add, breeding indoors under HPS also contributed to the decline as you don't see the proper expression of the plant, breeding really should be done outdoors under the sun imho.

The original Cali O was bred by Jerry Biesler in Afghanistan in the late 60s/early 70s, so it was a pure Afghan. Sam S bought Cali O seeds from Jerry B's ex-wife and brought the strain to Holland. I am sure they crossed a skunk into the line after it had been in Holland a while, and for the last 10 years Cali O has been lowish potency generic skunk - weed for Ze German tourists! lol

I think Black Domina is closer to the original Cali O - a potent Afghan with an orange taste, but BD isn't what is was years ago, it used to be really potent but quite varied, with only some yielding good, the others average yield, and the flower time was 65-70. These days it finishes in 55-60, all yield good and some still taste good, but none of them are that potent and all lack something.

 

[bombadil.360]

If it looks like a hybrid, it will be a hybrid.

so you go by how a plant looks like to determine what it is.

ok...

I see you guys also think you can say what hybrid is this one or that one just by looking at it too.

impressive...

 

[indifferent]

You gave a very poor example when you mentioned Lesotho, can you please explain to me how a short, squat hybrid-looking plant would evolve in Lesotho? I have grown a pure Lesotho strain, the old African Seeds one, and there was nothing remotely short, squat or fast about it, look at the landraces of the surrounding areas, none of those are short, squat and fast either.

It isn't hard to work out, look at the environmental data for Lesotho, it's hot, intense sunlight, long, warm growing season, no frost, all the conditions that would cause a landrace to be tall, long-flowering, all the characteristics we associate with a southern African sativa.

How many African strains have you grown? Personally, I have grown lots, and I have also grown a lot of other landraces from around the world, pure sativas are never short, squat, fast, so if you find plants that are, you have a hybrid.

Can you cite an example of me stating I can identify a plant's origins by looking at a pic on the internet? Or an example of me saying 'that is X'. I think you'll find I say things like 'it looks like X' or 'these traits suggest it may be X'.

I think you're just trying to be argumentative.

 

[englishrick]

anything fatleaf, and not from the Afghan region is a hybrid imo

when observing phenos in a hybrid,,,,[Mex x Nep] for example ,,, we can say some plants are closer to 1 parent than another,,,,most of the phenos in an F1 will look like a 50/50 cros of the two but when you get into the F2`s you will see phenos that lean towards the landrace plants that mande the hybrid...

thats all we are sayin bro

 

[indifferent]

Good explanation mate, it's all about recognising traits you are already very familiar with from having grown the parentals. I know that Mexican inside and out so it's not unusual that I can spot traits from it in Bean's cross to the Nepali.

On the fat leaf thing, I have not seen many plants from outside the Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Pakistan/NWFP region with fat leaves. China has many of course, and is the original home of the indica we now know as Afghanica.

But Lebanese, Egyptian, Moroccan, grown all of those, they all are hash cultivars and in many ways fit into the 'indica' profile, but they don't have fat leaves, they are either intermediate or quite thin.

Central European Ruderalis from Moravia, I studied that in the field and it has intermediate leaves, never saw one with the really fat, overlapping blades of an Afghan.

Then again, I've grown some Afghans that were intermediate thickness leaves too, but most are your classsic fat type.

 

[englishrick]

yeh ,,,China ,,Kashmire,,,Afgnan Pakistan ,,,,you got it indi,,,,"Silkroad [fatleaf] weed"!!,,,,,,,,them monster cabage overlaping fan leafs are a ded givaway

i think tom said once, something like,,,,[indica and sativa are bad terms],,,,its basicly fat leaf sativa,,,,and thin leaf sativa,,,,,"or something like that"

 

[bombadil.360]

How many African strains have you grown? Personally, I have grown lots, and I have also grown a lot of other landraces from around the world, pure sativas are never short, squat, fast, so if you find plants that are, you have a hybrid.



I think you're just trying to be argumentative.

if you had grown any Swazi Reds in enough quantity, you would know not all are large, thin leaves, and stretch.

in fact, you can find amongst Swazis short very compact phenotypes, that don't take longer than eighty days to mature, even less in some cases, specially if grown outdoors in the tropics.

not only are there pure Lesotho sativas that are short and fast, but also Banghis from Congo that behave the same way.

there's plenty of variation within a given land-race in terms of phenotypes; that is what makes a land-race genetically diverse; if you grow lots of plants from a supposed land-race and they are all uniform, it means it is not a genetically diverse landrace, but one which has been worked and bottle-necked in order to stabilize a specific phenotype.

everyone who has worked with sativas from around the world in enough numbers knows this.

this is why a landrace is worked anyway, to get to whatever phenotype a breeder is after...

oh, and funny you guys mention plants from Nepal, there is so much variation within a sativa Nepali line that it is pretty amazing to say the least.

 

[bombadil.360]

this is a pretty good thread:

Vavilov, Afghan Sativas, and Uzbeki Giants

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=25927

not all is what it seems to be.

 

[indifferent]

Yes, there is a lot of variation in any landrace, it is how they adapt to different seasons, not every year has the same seasons you know, some years are better than others.

Not sure how many swazis I've grown, at least a hundred, never had one with fat leaves, intermediate, yes, but never fat.

The south African genepool is a mish-mash from all kinds of sources, there's a lot of Indian genes in there, the Brits imported a lot of indian indentured labour and indian seeds. DeBeers grew private fields of indian weed for their indian workers because they were getting ripped off by the locals selling them inferior wild dagga.

So if you grow enough south africans, you will see all kinds of recessive phenos, but if you find one that resembles a north indian 'indica' then that is what it is, making that line a hybrid between genes of different sources. Where the dividing line is between hybrid and landrace is i dunno, does a south african line that contains indian and local dagga genes count as a landrace because the hybridisation happened a century ago or is it a landrace due to a century having passed?

There are lots of landrace sativas that won't produce shorter, faster, broad-leaved plants, if you find one that does, that indicates the hand of man has been involved.

I read that vavilov thread a long time ago. i can easily summarise the situation in the western himalayas and the region to the north where vavilov travelled. The wild landraces of that region are tall, thin-leaved plants closer to what we know of today from Nepal, the classic short, fat hashish cultivars are not native to that region, they are introductions from China along the Silk Road and all of the classic Afghans like X-18, Deep Chunk, Pine Tar Kush, Petrolia Headstash etc are man-made over countless generations, probably several centuries, man has selected for resin production, potency etc. The landraces vavilov described were only to be found around the margins of the cultivated lands, usually at higher elevations, below the snowline but higher than the cultivated valley bottoms and sides.

When the Soviets invaded in 1979, that ancient tradition of cultivating and maintaining the hashish cultivars was destroyed, and while some cultivation continued, no-one was able to carry on maintaining their cultivars carefully. This resulted in a mixing of the cultivated and wild genepools and a huge decline in the quality of the farmed plants. If you grow a post-soviet afghan line now, you get a mess, tons of variation, mostly wild landrace type plants, rare are high quality high resin high potency plants, look at all the mazari freebie grow threads here and you'll see what i mean.

On the other side of the border in pakistan, the situation is different, no-one ever walked all over their hashish cultivation like happened in Afghanistan, so in the Chitral region, Swat valley and other areas, there are still plenty of high quality, carefully maintained cultivars. It is nigh-on impossible to find a good kush type in afghanistan these days, but go to the upper Swat valley in Pakistan and there are loads.

Here are some pics of 'indica' type plants, care to guess where they came from?

 

[smokefrogg]

so much info in here, so glad i read this thread, my goodness there is just so much to learn!

 

[englishrick]

but what about FAT LEAFS,,,,???,,,,,,im sure its the fatleaf trait is localized to Afghan, China, Kush, Paki them sorta regions.....didnt Rob Clarke say the same too!!