Land of a thousand colas, part deux

[Itsmychoice]

Honestly I gave up quick, two runs, on the wc meters after seeing some inconsistencies with what i thought it should say.
I have also seen a big difference in where the plants are on the table playing a big role in how quickly they dry. I try to add an extra feed tube on each of the plants in the aisle. I don’t have rooms of leds though just single rows in mixed light rooms

 

[gmanwho]

Honestly I gave up quick, two runs, on the wc meters after seeing some inconsistencies with what i thought it should say.
I have also seen a big difference in where the plants are on the table playing a big role in how quickly they dry. I try to add an extra feed tube on each of the plants in the aisle. I don’t have rooms of leds though just single rows in mixed light rooms

Not sure if any of this will help or if im just repeating something already known. Theres alot of variables at play even " IF " you can replicate the same conditions at each site. Which is damn near impossible. Thats why prior i mentioned the WC meter should be used as an average an not a specific. And i think this is exactly why if budget allows there should be multiple sensors throughout the system, so theres an average of them all, and then u can check that zone for specifics, and actually see the aisles are drying faster like you noticed.

Then u see numbers and you can hone in, not guessing how drier the outside aisles are verse the ones deeper in the canopy. now theres a number to attach. And of course, all assuming that the calibration of the sensor is correct.

Knowing these aisles dry faster, you may want to add an extra dripper like u mentioned. BUT now you changed the whole dynamic of that feed area.

Is it because the isles have more air flow? IF so, the more air flow will increase evaporation at the top of the medium. More evaporation at these sites will increase the build up of ec in those compared to others. This could also lead to eventual antagonisms in those sites verse others. now these sites might require a flush days before others.

And then even deeper, even something more obscure ....More evaporation & higher drybacks could kill off the microbiology living in that upper area of the medium, verse the others. Then all of a sudden you where benefiting from "fixing" bacteria, or some other deep unknowns, and now that variable has changed.

Talk about a domino effect. An the answer could have been move the fan. or run multiple small fans verse 1 or 2 bigger fans. or place a piece of plastic over the top of the medium/container of the aisle plant to help shield from air movement.



Or like you mentioned running different lights. One thing is "said" that leds dont offer infrared. If this bulb offers more infrared verse the other bulb in the next fixture you gonna throw those variables in too. Now these plants are transpiring more then the others, drying down the containers more.

itsmychoice im just spittballing here. not anything specific. Who knows, i maybe wrong, and often are. I enjoy these discussions.

So many variables. The Upper plant canopy size, age, root size and or root conditions, further or closer from the lights, pathogens with one plant an not the others, all can effect uptake. Upper air movement will increase transpiration if one area gets more air movement then the other area. And especially if lower circulation fans are pointed at these sites verse those. Or even the the sites closer to a fan verse further away.

Think thats why you see larger operations run duct work with holes punched in them. spread and even out the air movement, even out the temperature drop from cooling. Cooling one area more then the other changes the whole dynamic too. Or possibly increase's pathogen growth.

Hell, then throw in a room of plants that aren't mono cropped!! Talk about variables when feeding.

One thing i have started doing is making sure that every plant has the same metered amount of medium in the container as the next. if this plant has 2.2 gallons of medium this one has 2.5 and the next has 2 gallons, there all gonna dry different even if you had all your other variables locked in.

Ive also wondered this .......how the WC changes when u calibrate a sensor to a plant newly transplanted, and the root system has not yet developed in that medium.

Now a few weeks later take that same plant & sensor when the root system has now filled the medium. How does the increased root in the medium change the medium characteristics as a whole. Now compressing the medium. osmotic pressures difference and all these things i dont fully understand.



to much coffee this morning .... time to go setup my new solenoids to split irrigation zones in flower rm 1.

enjoy the day ladies!!!

 

[flower~power]

Coffee is the blood of life!

 

[gmanwho]

wish i could drink coffee later in the day like i used to. fucks me up if i drink a coffee past 10am, i wont be able to sleep right 12hrs -16 hrs later. Fall asleep then wake up, over an over till im exhausted....

 

[flower~power]

It’s not the caffeine that gets me it’s just like I have to piss like a racehorse all fucking morning

 

[Itsmychoice]

Rainy morning coffee hoping to get on the lake today.

The variables are nuts, impossible to repeat completely from run to run. In truth I am just trying to keep everything on the homestead alive and running. Really just trying to replicate positive trends and with coco I have fallen back to be the wetter the better once the lights have been on an hour especially the last six weeks of its life, focusing on adjusting ec, temp and humidity as things move along. I like the info you can get out of the trolmaster and being able to adjust things on the phone i will never be without that again. Dimming is the best thing LED has going and has been fun to play with.

 

[greyfader]

the geezers and coffee club!

i guess i'm regressing mentally and turning into a child again because every time you guys use the word "trolmaster" i crack up!

 

[gmanwho]

the geezers and coffee club!

i guess i'm regessing mentally and turning into a child again because every time you guys use the word "trolmaster" i crack up!

man i love coffee. the smells and tastes....

speeking of geezer, i went to the hospital twice from a large dunkin donuts coffee. the first time was mixed in with some slight dehydration from partying abit the night before on a slight vacation.

First time my hands started tingling an going numb, then my thighs legs an feet.
Anxiety shot through the roof and thought i was having a heart attack.
I was also driving a standard shift car. It was like all my extremities felt like they " fell asleep" , while i was trying to clutch an shift my way to the emergency room.

2nd time wasnt as bad. But after that i finally put 2 and 2 together. And no more dunkin for me!!

about a year or 2 later something similar happened to a buddy of mine. a large dunkin donuts coffee made him think he was having a heart attack too.


Ya i thought the same thing , like "troll" master. But when i heard one of their videos it was pronounced like "trawl" master. similar to but not like trowel, that u use for massonaary work.

trawl master. weird name i thought too

**edit, went back and spelled trawl differently**

 

[Treetroit City]

I always assumed it was just a play the the word control.

 

[greyfader]

I always assumed it was just a play the the word control.

yes, that's the logical interpretation, but i keep getting this image of a dominatrix standing over a guy at the keyboard of a computer with a whip!

 

[gmanwho]

Starship controls

Update on the LED CMH setup. Heres an older pic of the flower rm 2 controls before i setup the par meter to the controller. Hoping i can get more time to learn more about modbus , find the right addon led dim module,and get the kingbrite 3 channel led controller out of the mix. Would like to get the hydro-x controller to run the leds. But the hydro-x pro will not allow me to run 3 channels. only 1 channel 0-10v. But For now it works.

Running the LED's full spec 70%, uv 50%, and no far red, at 18" above canopy gives me 680ppfd or so. then running 9 of the cmh adds about 230 ppfd. So current setup is running 910 ppfd.

Day35

The balancing act:

So i wanted to stop running the dehumidifier during lights on. Some how increase efficiency (of sorts) and at the least stop wasting the electricity for the running of the dehumidifier during lights on. Put that electricity consumption towards something more useful. so i thought more LIGHT equals more heat.


Objective was to not run a dehumidifier or use reheat during lights on, Period.

Lets take that energy normally used for a dehumidifier and put that towards something more beneficial. So is this my solution?

I suppose i could run the leds at a higher percentage. But this would only again increase my transpiration rate above the point where the High efficiency air conditioner cant keep up with it's natural by process of removing the hummidty into condensate. Then yet again the dehumidifier has to come back on and cycle on an off.

(im sure an inverter dehumidifier maybe an an eventual option one day. A dehumidifier that could ramp down and match the humidity instead of cycling like an old ac compressor)

I also figure this additional heat from the cmh would come in handy during the colder months as well.

Now i know its said a watt is a watt, and watts in are eventual heat out. no matter which way consumed.
I am no engineer. And im sure there is something i am uneducated on and or do not fully understand. Something i maybe missing. So this is why im sharing. Crowd sourcing on the old faithful icmag!!

With my my past rooms the de hps an cmh combos have worked well.

Trying to get the VPD in the "suggested" pocket, at or around 1.0-1.1vpd. Or atleast this pocket seems to like the room at 80-82f at canopy and 70-72%rh.


So If i was to figure out watt to watt ,give an take. And if my math is approximate, the dehumidifier would offset close to three 315w bulbs.

I haven't tried running only 3 of the 9 cmh lights. I would be curious how the room balances, or not. Maybe it would balance with 2 lights, or 4 or 5 lights? And im sure this would be plant and stage dependent on the transpiration rates. Outside temperature, heat load , or heat loss, through the seasons.

But the 9 cmh lights on gives me more of a uniform coverage.


So the math. the dehumidifier uses about 900 watts. the cmh setup running all 9 lights uses uses 2835 watts.

approx three 315 w lights equals the dehumidifier running, so if i remove 3 of the 9 lights wattage to offset the dehumidifier . i am running an additional 2000w of light to get uniformity and an additional 230 ppfd.

*The key thing here is the 8-900 watts that the dehumidifier uses to run, the ac has to remove 8-900 watts of that heat. There is no benefit towards the room PPFD from the dehumidifier, but yet the ac has an extra 8-900 w of heat load. 800watts x 3.412btu = 2730btu of cooling needed to offset 800w of dehumdifier usage*

and maybe 30 watts for the centrifugal motor on the humidifier.

unknown amount of energy for the 36kbtu mitsubishi 20 seer mini split to remove that 2030 watts of added heat.

 

[flower~power]

 

[gmanwho]

Ok so heres where im gonna need some help. I am most likely going about something incorrectly.

I dont often number crunch this deep. atleast not regularly. an please if chime in if you where able to decipher my nonsense an see an error. Or can take a min an explain an easier way to work the numbers. I need to learn this!

Is the CMH not worth it from an "on paper" standpoint? but are there other benefits? like maybe winter only, or veg in space, or flower transition only, or flower ripening only? Or none at all??? An overlap i am missing? Possibly a larger gram per watt later? or is this all just wishful thinking?


so heres where im at, at least my current train of thought, at this current configuration. refer back to post above #51.


Option A. (current)
Led full spec channel at 70% consumes 420w of 600w, + UV at 25% of 25 watt equals 6.25w.

So427w x 6 fixtures =2562w. + Nine 315w cmh's equals 2835w. approx 5400w for 900 ppfd for an 10'x11.5' canopy. No dehumidifier.

room canopy is approx 10' x 11.5', or 115sqft

Option A is 5400w or 46.95w per sqft.


Option B)
I THINK (from other calculations), Using led alone i could get to 900ppfd if i ran the lights at 100% at 18". I THINK if i drop to 12" i would be closer to 1000ppfd, and then i could drop leds to 90% to match ppfd.

I have to setup some baseline. so going with the 900ppfd at 18" to match the current config i started. (This maybe where i can shave more to increase efficiency )

So call it 600w full spec only at 100%, uv at 25% to match option a, 606.25w x 6 fixtures =3638.5w plus the 900 watt dehumidifier is 4538w. (I am unsure if this 1 dehumidifier alone would keep up with higher transpiration rates if i was running 100%)

Option B, 4538w is 39.46w per sqt foot!!

A difference of 7.49w less per sqft. or 861watts less !


WHAT AM I MISSING?? or did i just prove im wrong, atleast this point on paper. and a side by side for other unknowns is in order?

 

[Itsmychoice]

I think you might have proved that a dehumidifier is more efficient at removing moisture than a light bulb. I think the ppfd coverage/true average might be to the cmh option’s advantage and will produce more flower… but 2000 grams more flower is a tall order

I like when it gives me a high co2 alarm when the lights and co2 are off because the plants are producing energy.

 

[gmanwho]

I think you might have proved that a dehumidifier is more efficient at removing moisture than a light bulb. I think the ppfd coverage/true average might be to the cmh option’s advantage and will produce more flower… but 2000 grams more flower is a tall order

hey. so what ive been reading is the Air conditioner is the most efficient means to remove humidity from the air. ( other then a erv or hrv, but i am not sure how if one can remove hummidty without removing the co2, yet, or the price of a unit )

If the ac is not maxed out already, and you are using a variable speed air conditioner (inverter), adding a heat source will run the air conditioner at a higher rate. Running the ac at a higher rate will increase the amount of pints per day (condensate) the ac will remove.

Still learning myself so correct me if im wrong. So whats done in larger scales is something called reheat.

Basically heating the air with a simple heating coil after the ac coil. Running the ac harder, then reheating the air before it leaves the unit. Using a humidity rheostat setup for controlling the amount of energy delivered to the heating coil.

the Higher the humidity past your set point, the more energy is delivered to your heating coil. the ac sees the heat load and starts to ramp up. The coil gets colder, removes more humidity and turns to condensate.

As the humidity lowers towards your set point, less energy is delivered to the heating coil, ramping down your ac, eventually finding a balance. This is verified over an over when temps an hummidty data is collected an graphed. The data now is shown as smooth line, and not peaks and valleys like when something cycles on an off.

it is my brief understanding that when you run a dehumidifier its efficiency is very poor to start with. the cycling on and off, the mechanical loss through the compressor, and then the heat that is dumped into the room. Then making the ac remove that amount of heat(wattage) anyways.

So i think to really understand this, i need to run the exact amount of cmh wattage in place of the dehumidifier. And add amp reading sensors to log my air conditioner power usage.

I do believe that this is part of the equation that needs to be factored in. monitoring the ac wattage usage too!

 

[flower~power]

Bow

 

[greyfader]

"Running the ac at a higher rate will increase the amount of pints per day (condensate) the ac will remove."

if by this you mean fan speed the reverse is true. i know it sounds counter-intuitive but a lower fan speed removes more moisture than a higher fan speed.

Lowering the fan speed is one way to control a large amount of interior humidity.

taken from; https://www.google.com/search?q=Doe...AuAEMyAEA4gMEGAAgQQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1

 

[gmanwho]

"Running the ac at a higher rate will increase the amount of pints per day (condensate) the ac will remove."

if by this you mean fan speed the reverse is true. i know it sounds counter-intuitive but a lower fan speed removes more moisture than a higher fan speed.

Lowering the fan speed is one way to control a large amount of interior humidity.

taken from; https://www.google.com/search?q=Does+lowering+fan+speed+reduce+humidity?&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS961US961&biw=1366&bih=619&ei=lDfUZLaZGYGgptQPt6O-qAg&ved=0ahUKEwi2s9Ho8tCAAxUBkIkEHbeRD4UQ4dUDCBA&oq=Does+lowering+fan+speed+reduce+humidity?&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKERvZXMgbG93ZXJpbmcgZmFuIHNwZWVkIHJlZHVjZSBodW1pZGl0eT9IAFAAWABwAHgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEMyAEA4gMEGAAgQQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1

Sorry grey didn’t clarify. did not mean the fan speed. Meant the ac compressor ramping up to create more cooling. It made sense to me in the paragraphs that followed.

( But I do understand moving air slower across a coil will allow the coil to run cooler. creating a larger drop in coil temp compared to incoming air temp. Air moving slower across the coil, more contact, Larger temp drop. colder air holds less moisture, more condensate falls out. “Relative “ humidity to the temp.

High air flow could partially evaporate the condensate that just formed. Creating a Vacuum and pulling moisture back into the air stream.

A Different place an time, I’ve actually sat with an air handler door partially opened, watching the air flow pull the condensate back up into the A-coil. Moisture droplets fluttering in the wind and re-evaporating. Creating droplets that splatter into the plenum only to be evaporated again and sent back into the house. A vicious cycle.


Older ac’s I can see the coil getting colder like that. But mini splits monitor the coils to prevent freezing up. )

What I meant is a Mini split , heat pump , or inverter, speeds up an slows down depending on heat load. A 24kbtu mini split can run probably run 50-60% lower then it’s maximum. adjust when load increases or decreases. Simultaneously Increasing or decreasing the fan speed creating the most efficient scenario for that given point in time.

Or Whatever the software engineers write in the programming.

A higher end Mini split can even prepare for an anticipated heat load using the last “x” amount of days of data it has collected.

So Running a mini-split on anything other then auto fan speed i don’t recommend. You never want a scenario to come up when the computer can’t speed up the fan to meet a demand. I’m sure that the software won’t allow an increase of the compressor past a certain point if the cooling isn’t properly removed from the coil. It’s definitely monitoring that coil temp and or return refrigerant temperatures too. Making sure to prevent a freeze up.

An vice versa , having the fan on high when it doesn’t need to be.


Fuck me, gotta travel for work.

 

[greyfader]

i gotcha now! i have zero experience with mini-splits. i suffer from the "old dog new tricks syndrome"!

 

[flower~power]

Many people can learn from Gman streams of consciousness