Lacto Bacilli: process and discussion

[Clackamas Coot]

jaykush

Here's an interesting article about one specific strain, Lactobacillus sanfrancisco sp. nov which is the specific lacto bacillus found in San Francisco sourdough which is different from sourdough cultures from Naples or Paris for example.

What's interesting is that if you purchase specific 'sourdough' cultures from Sourdo.com which carries cultures from several countries including France, Italy, Australia, Middle East, et al. you'll get very different flavors one from another.

It's also true that this difference in tastes only lasts a couple of cycles because the natural wild yeasts in the local atmosphere will soon dominate the wild yeasts in the original culture powder.

Bakers trade these powders/cultures which proved to be a security issue following 9/11 - i.e. shipping powder through the US Mail service was a dicey proposition for a couple of years.

Some of the science on this makes me wonder what happens when you take a commercial culture product (like EM-1) and make your own culture from the mother culture - do the local yeasts/bacteria change the make-up of the new brew?

And another question that I'm curious about is adding fermented food products which contain huge number of strains (like mesu with over 327 strains) - will all of them grow or will the local strains dominate the new culture?

This science is definitely above my pay grade but it's interesting to study if nothing else.

CC

 

[cellardweller]

Jay, thanks for this thread,lots of great info in here!
Just had time to read the whole thing..
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this, and maybe they did and I just missed it, but what do you think of using yogurt in step 5?
:

 

[jaykush]

Some of the science on this makes me wonder what happens when you take a commercial culture product (like EM-1) and make your own culture from the mother culture - do the local yeasts/bacteria change the make-up of the new brew?

And another question that I'm curious about is adding fermented food products which contain huge number of strains (like mesu with over 327 strains) - will all of them grow or will the local strains dominate the new culture?

im sure over time the bacteria and everything would adapt and change somewhat. as far as im concerned local is better, better suited for the environment, the weather, the soil, and so on. thats why some people culture beneficial indigenous micro organisms BIM for short. i know i do.

the mesu i cant really say, im not a microbiologist or anything like that. only my oppinion on the matter.



cellerdweller, i cant say about the use of yogurt, stick to the instructions for a while till you decide to mix it up. even when using milk you end up with a yogurt like by product ( and wow do chickens go nuts over it!!! love to eat it)

 

[Congobongo]

Did anyone get any sediment at the bottom from their rice wash? The pictures in the first post doesn't have any sediment from their wash while I have a good 2 inch layer at the bottom of my jar. I still just want to add the water to milk without any particles in it right?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

JayKush

I did quite a bit of reading about the term you provided - "beneficial indigenous micro organisms" and found some very good articles. One in particular was from a farmer, Gil A. Carandang of Herbana Farms in the Phillipines. It's a very complete and through article on the different methods of acquiring bacteria.

This one cite I found particularly interesting:

Bamboo Microorganisms

Another method of gathering microorganism is through burying your container with cooked rice on bamboo plants litter. Apparently, bamboo through observation and experience in the East, attracts powerful beneficial microorganisms as the roots of the bamboo exude sugary substances that attract beneficial microorganisms. The same procedure is followed as described before in its culture.

The product that I mentioned to you (mesu) is fermented bamboo shoots and it contains 327 strains of lacto bacilli. This is the name of the product in Nepal. The Indian name for this product is 'kardi' and is fairly easy to source if you happen to live in an area where there's a sizable Indian-American community.

I was able to find the kurdi and have a batch of BIM fermenting now using this product. After 6 days or so I have to say that it has a fairly strong aroma - not necessarily unpleasant but definitely strong.

Thanks for the information - there's quite a bit of information out there. Enough that I'm rethinking my addiction to the various EM products.

CC

 

[ureapwhatusow]

excellent thread

 

[jaykush]

coot that is where this thread came from, the recipe. from Gil. like i said i did not create this recipe. just made it a bit easier to understand because ive made it so many times.

i am doing a bamboo micro organism culture right now. the mulch i put it under was almost 2 ft deep. the soil nice and black under it. ive only done it once before but the bamboo patch was no where near as healthy or old as this one.

let us know how the mesu comes out, what are your main plans for its use? or what you hope it to do? other than add diversity of course.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

JayKush

I'm mainly trying to learn more about lacti bacillus and this product seemed to be an interesting one to start with.

The next project for this week is to drive about 20 miles to a large old-growth forest and gather up some leaves, humus, etc. from the forest floor. I figured the worms would appreciate the effort if nothing else. I also wanted to collect some agents to use in the BIM process.

I'm an old man and this is an interesting hobby if nothing else. I am anxious to see how they'll work on my 'testing raised bed' which has 3 or 4 French melons, 30+ Asian culinary herbs and an Alpine strawberry variety that I've been growing for several years. There's also some heirloom tomatoes and Armenian cucumbers. We grow some weird stuff to be sure.

CC

 

[215Z]

As someone who has watched his mother make yogurt every day of my life from the day-before's starter, I am blown away that LBx is so useful.

 

[neongreen]

jaykush - how long did the LB remain reasonably viable for in the fridge?

I'm thinking, towards the end, when the culture is on its way out, you could start a new culture using the remains of the old one. That would mean you skip the first 4 steps, and go to step 5 (add 10 parts of milk), so that makes sure your culture remains pure. Seems logical, and would save time.

I'll ask my friend who works with microbes, in a lab, what he thinks, and if he has any tips for prolonging the life of a culture/keeping it going as a "perpetual culture".

 

[jaykush]

i saw life in the microscope up to when i stopped checking at if i remember correctly 3 months. i would try to use it withing a month though. you also dont have to apply this very often unless your using it to make other things. if applying to the soil once or twice a grow is enough.

cant say about the perpetual culture, never tried it. im sure with some fine tunning and the right process it could be done no problems. i dont mind making fresh batches personally

 

[neongreen]

Thanks jay.

My friend seems to think there will be no problem skipping the first 4 steps, and using an existing culture to keep the culture going, for anyone that wants to try it.

He also said that for the initial culture, you could probably skip steps 1-4 and use yogurt to inoculate, although some might prefer to stick with species collected locally.

 

[jaykush]

neon i wouldnt doubt if you could keep the culture going. there are a few reasons one might not want to continue a culture. first off would be experience, its better to stick to the basic recipe until you have it down with consistent results. one reason i prefer fresh is the rice wash can be a waste product from making dinner, some say washed rice before cooking makes better rice. do i know or care, no....but it doesnt hurt and you get a helpful gardening microorganism at the same time.

you could use yogurt i wouldnt doubt it, it does contain almost the same bacteria. but like you said i prefer to collect species local to my area for best efficiency.

just being on the safe side of course.

 

[neongreen]

Noted, and thanks as always jay!

I'll run through the full process a few times till I have it down.

 

[neongreen]

I didn't realize, but it's been a week now since I started to culture the LB, so I'm ready to add milk I guess, or perhaps I should wait a little longer...

There are a few bight white spots on the surface, the largest of which you can see in the photo. I'm guessing thats the LB?

 

[jaykush]

strain and add milk wait another week.

 

[neongreen]

Will do. Ta jay.

 

[Kaneh]

I'll join the LB revolution!!!
Just starting my first LB farm.

I was yesterday studying about LB and realiced were using it all the time!

Do you guys know about freedom cabbage aka sauerkraut aka sour cabbage?
I'm not trying to explain with my poor english what's it is, so pleace check it out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerkraut

It's full of LB that comes from sliced and crushed cabbage.

There's this old lady from Poland living in my neighbour who makes the best sauerkraut. My wife is basicly pusher for this stuff! All my frieds has got addiction after tasting it! LOL. So we basicly got our stuff for free because were selling so much of it. ;D
I think there's some salt in it, so I wouldn't use it straight to plants, but I quess it would be possible making it without salt. I think this could be very usefull for organic farming. Like making anaerobic tea from cabbage and you get LB as a bonus!

In my family we eat a lot of it. It's only product where human make something better by processing it. VERY healthy stuff and tastes good also IMHO

 

[jaykush]

hey kaneh i know someone who cultures sourkraut for the lactic acid bacteria. cant remember how they used it on there grow ill have to ask them next time i see them. but i know they had decent results, cant say it improved the grow overall but it helped keep healthy plants up to the end.

 

[neongreen]

Its been cool, and only 4 days since I mixed with milk, but this is looking done I think?