Lacto Bacilli: process and discussion

[Clackamas Coot]

ripman

The Lactobacillus Bulgaricus is used as a culture for 'Bulgarian-style' yogurt as well as in the brewing of specific beers around the world. I'll check out some of the other strains as well.

HTH

CC

 

[spiral]

Heres some pics of Lacto B. Dont have a microscope, but i think it would be interesting trying to look for the different types. These are some of the most common.
Guess its kinda hard to tell the difference. Thats why they have to look at there genes.




LB acidophilus



LB casei



LB bulgaricus



LB plantarum

 

[tariq]

great thread! I only wish I started this a lot longer seeing as we eat rice almost every day..

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Found this:

Many lacto bacilli use homofermentative metabolism (Only producing lactic acid) whereas others are heterofermentative (which can produce alcohol instead of lactic acid)
These homofermentative LBA are aerotolerant despite the complete absence of a respitory chain. This aerotolerance is Manganese Dependent.

Manganese in Molasses? I'm pretty sure it has it, and if it does would that mean that by using molasses we are only making Homofermentative LBA that can't produce alcohol?

 

[spiral]

hey GH. Yes theres manganese in molasses. Well just from fermenting with the LB I'd have to say both are present, from the sweet,sour, slightly alcoholic smell. however not 100% sure good question and info. See if i can find more info.

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Hmm I'm thinking there wasn't enough Manganese for the correct LB to take over...

 

[jaykush]

good question and info GH, but i doubt we will ever know what exactly is being cultured unless we go about genetic testing.

so say we only have homofermentive LAB, what effect does the lactic acid the LAB produce have on things like fermented plant extracts and bokashi.

 

[spiral]

Ah, I see what your sayin, but Im not exactly sure if there is a correct LB to use. When using molasses I still believe and from everything ive read both types are present. Typically plant matter is fermented which naturally contains both hetero and homofermentative types, and both types are in the milk cultures we use to get our LB.

EM which contains LB fermentum (hetero), and LB casei (homo) is typically activated with molasses and kelp for makin bokashi, which when properly made has that sweet/sour/alcohol smell. So we should be good. However we ferment our stuff with or without molasses both types should be present. I hope this made sense.

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Here's some more information found scattered on the internet:

"Some of the bacterial disorders of cider described by Warcollier (1928), such as Graisse disease and mannite disease, are caused by lactobacilli of the heterofermentative type which produce not only lactic acid but also acetic acid, alcohols and carbon dioxide from carbohydrates. An excellent account of the occurrence and development of these organisms in cider has been published by Steuart (1949). Homofermentative lactobacilli producing mainly lactic acid and only traces of by-products from carbohydratesare also present in apple juice."

 

[ripman]

If homofermentative are aerotolerant while the hetero are not, and if homofermentative are better as they produce less negative byproducts, then sticking a airstone like Ladylargely said is not a bad idea... what do you think about this?
Presently I've stopped making LBs as I'm using EM, currently testing it to check if it works for my setup.

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

From "Isolation and Characterization of a Bacteriocin from a Homofermentative Lactobacillus" Vol 4. no. 4 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, Oct 1973 pg. 487-494.

Cut and pasted, not full paragraphs, just important text:

"Coetzee found a number of heterofermentative and homofermentative lactobacilli which produced bacterocin-like inhibitors. A somewhat unusual situation was found with heterofermentative Lactobacillus fermenti, in that all 25 of the producing strains inhibited the same indicator cultures, and no resistant mutans could be obtained"

IF I read that right, All types of the LBA produce inhibitors towards the same cultures, and those inhibited cultures are eliminated 100%, not 99.9% allowing a genetic resistance to be bred through the inhibited cultures.

The cultures were of species:
escherichia coli and related species
Megacin A (Identical to phospholipase A)
pyocin R (resembles a phage tail)
Enterococcin (type1)
staphylococcin(414)
Staphylococcus aureus (c55)



If this is true, that could be a major breakthrough just waiting to come by.. imagine being able to actually wipe out 100% of the bacteria. E.coli on your tomato's? not a chance, on your spinach? Nope. and you would never need to increase the amount applied!

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Hrmm, Here's the Amino Acids associated with Lactocin 27, one of the bacteriocins found in Homofermentative LBA


Aspartic acid
Threonine
serine
Glutamic ACid
Proline
Glycine
Alanine
Valine
Isoleucine
Leucine
Tyrosine
Phenylalanine
histidine
lysine
arginine
tryptophan
methionin
half-cystine


So, there's a small part of the amino acids found in LBA...

Screw it: here's some more Antimicrobial information for us:

Same publication:

"Lactobacilli produce a number of antimicrobial substances, including hydrogen peroxide and lactic acid. the production of an inhibitory substance by lactobacillus acidophilus, called lactocidin, wich was active on pseudomonas aeruginosa, e.coli, s. faecalis, and many other bacteria."
"L helveticus, a homofermentative lactobacillus obtained from human saliva produces a bacteriocin with properties quite similar to the bacterium from the heterofermentative L fermenti (meaning we can probably still just produce Homofermentative, if it ends up being the most beneficial, by using L helveticus instead of L fermenti) Both bacteriocins are heat stable"
"

 

[rrog]

Let me apologize now for not reading this whole thread. This may have been discussed already, and if so just tell me and I'll read this all.

Step one is to collect atmospheric bacteria, and step 2 is to select out LactoB and amplify in milk. Simple.

Why wouldn't you pour off some yogurt water (light green serum-looking) into the milk? The yogurt water is full of primarily LactoB. Skip the rice water altogether.

I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't know it. Thanks

 

[jaykush]

when collecting microbes from the air, you are essentially collecting microbes that are adapted to your climate. you could use yogurt, hell you could do without the lacto b. its just personal preference, and the rice wash for me is a by-product of making my dinner. so it all works out.

 

[rrog]

I've been playing around with bubbling these cocktails. I had a rice wash that I added a bit of yogurt "water" to. Rice water had a film that I was cleaning, and assumed it was working. I was bubbling also.

After adding a dilution to milk (and bubbling) some froth formed and I wiped off. After that, nothing. Smells awesome, though. Creamy.

What the hell so I added a bit of yogurt water again. Nothing. But sure smells good.

I think this is one of those unstoppable processes, and that's why I'm confused. Open top mason jars

Wondering if it's too cool? Must be 63F

 

[maryjohn]

isn't this an anaerobic process? why are you bubbling?

 

[jaykush]

lacto bacillus is a faculative anaerobe. meaning it can handle both.

rrog, i would stick to the method posted and perfect it before you go venture off into new things. just a suggestion.

 

[rrog]

The bubbling should work fine. I suspect I've had way too much air, perhaps.

Also, I still don't understand why more people aren't adding yogurt liquid directly to the milk and proceeding.

It would seem that this would get the system up, running and done much faster. Yet we don't so I suspect there's a reason.

 

[maryjohn]

Using yogurt would get you a different set of microbes - one that likely will outcompete the native ones you are after. Many different lactibacilli do different things. Your question is a bit like asking why the lambic valley brewers don't get things going with some packets of brewers yeast. It would ruin the beer for their market. Still will get you soused though.

Yes they can survive with oxygen but via aerobic respiration which produces no lactic acid. That's why nobody bubbleS yoghurt. You may culture the bugs bu you don't get the same byproducts.

I'd love to know whether lacto is as tough when exposed to air. I always assumed they get consumed en masse by soil micro organisms, and that's why my worms go crazy over em. If you put enough, you pickle the soil. And your roots.

 

[rrog]

I'm not totally agreeing with the native lactoB vs. imported explanation., but I appreciate your thoughts a lot. That wasn't meant to be a criticism. Besides, I've made my own yogurt for months and if there is any regional LactoB influence, I've done that long ago already.

Interesting that you say the aerobic respiration produces no lactic acid.

I'm bubbling because the overall grow method that I'm using incorporates lactoB foliar and soil addition and they use the bubble method. Very well documented with many step by step pictures. And you go from rice to finished serum in only a few days.

But I've never read where yogurt would be introduced. That was apparently simply a failed experiment on my part, and I'm just looking around for why this may have failed. I suspect I simply had too much air bubbling. Overly aerobic environment reduced lactic acid output and therefore no lactic acid to jumpstart glycolysis. Maybe.