KBS extreme NFT: soaker hose vs. porous tube? pump vs. regenerative blower?

[snowkitty]

I’ve been growing in a Rubbermaid DWC recirculating system that I am converting to a KBS bucket design.

The bucket design is two nested black 5 gallon buckets with a spacer inbetween. I’m using a section of PVC for a spacer instead of the 1 gallon bucket. Not a big change and one that’s been done all over the place. Spacer height is 8.5".

The goal is to get a 1-2 inch froth or film of nutrients in the bottom of the lower bucket using air forced into your nutrient solution.

krusty’s design: Thomas pump and soaker hose
The soaker hose weaved through holes that were drilled in the 1 gallon spacer bucket. Krusty used a Thomas 1/15 HP compressor pump (Model #900-59) with a 1/4" soaker hose. My understanding is that pump is sized for the baseline 10 bucket krusty basement.

Here’s his diagram:

Thomas pump is available at Grainger: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4Z791
1/4" soaker hose available at Mr. Drip: http://www.mrdrip.com/minibulksoakerhose.htm

The drawbacks are (1) pump is hella loud and (2) soaker hose gets clogged. Krusty’s response to those complaints were (1) insulate it in a box and shut up, (2) replace the soaker hose every 3rd crop because it’s not like you’re not making enough from your garden to cover it, and (3) don’t cheap out on the pump and expect to get his results…you need extreme NFT film/froth on the roots to grow krusty’s plants.

KBS growers’ improvement: Regenerative blower with Alita HDPE Porous Tube
Over the last 5 years, some kbs growers have rejected the soaker hose for its tendency to clog and the extremely high psi required to run it (high psi means you need the loud compressor pump) and improved the system with a regenerative blower and porous PVC diffuser pipe.

I have absolutely no clue how you hook the PVC diffuser pipe up to lines/pipes that go back to the blower and I have no clue what a bucket design with these diffuser tubes would look like…so chime in if you know anything about this…. Also, what diameter pipe is used?

Porous PVC tube manufacturer: http://www.alita.com/diffuser/polyethylene.php
Porous PVC tube retail: http://www.aquamerik.com/catalogue/produits.cgi?category=diffuseurs_pvcporeux&lg=eng

SYK said to use a Sweetwater regenerative blower…but which one?
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1027/Sweetwater-Regenerative-Blowers/sweetwater/0

Another improvement: Alita Silicone Rubber Diffuser Hose
BlindDate has a thread (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=44663) in which he describes Alita’s silicone rubber diffuser hose as the world’s best aerator for krusty and DWC systems. The silicone expands and never clogs. You make the hoops yourself out of tee fittings and add in lead air lines. It sounds like he recommends sticking with krusty’s pumps when you use these hoses:

As for the porus polyethylene: Been there, done that, same clogging issue. You guys also have to remember that this hose is for high output pumps not Walmart vibrators. For the Krusty guys running Thomas pumps. it's the cats ass. Low backpressure means higher output, lower temperture and much more quiet.

Diffuser Hose manufacturer: http://www.alita.com/diffuser/siliconehose.php

Help me decide
This might be a silly question…but I have not seen enough pictures to understand the set-up…

Are my choices

1. compressor pump + soaker hose
2. compressor pump + Alita silicone rubber diffuser
3. regenerative blower + Alita porous PVC

Or, can I substitute out the compressor pump with the regenerative blower with any of my aeration/diffusion options? What kind of manifold do you use to distribute air to all your buckets?

Thanks for helping me out…

 

[~SYK~]

As posted in this thread : http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=44663&page=2

SYK, your experience is one I definitely take to heart... I am thinking I might end up buying the Alita porous pvc just to see what it looks like and how it performs and then see what I can do to make my own after that.

Thank you.

Now - that is just silly. I can tell you right now, that it costs $10 per foot, and will last between 3 and 4 weeks before clogging impeding flow to almost none.

I would try that silicone tubing if I *had* to try something different.

If I was personally building my own room again, I would forgo the cute airstone toys, and simply drill some tiny holes (say like 1/16") every 2-3 inches down the pvc on the BOTTOM of the tube.

What this will do, is to allow small bubbles to bubble thru your solution, causing the "roaring boil" we all want in our buckets/rez.

I personally dont use water in my bottom buckets anymore ( another improvement to the "Killer Bucket System" (or simply "trees") over Kru*&%^ Buckets ... )

I have converted my blowers to oxygenate my rez now only; it helps keeps the nutrients in suspension doing it this way as well.

OK, I definitely need some help here. Glad you included a link. How do I size my regenerative blower relative to my pipe/tube or number of buckets?

I was planning to go with a soaker hose and Thomas air pump but I'm glad I kept researching it instead of buying it right away...

No problemo - happy to help; lord knows I learned KBS the HARD way ... even with Krusty Underwear holding my hand helping me dial the system in -- there were still too many problems with the 'original KBS' design and it had to be modified to work well IMO.

I'm not really sure how to "size" the blower. I would buy the largest one that you can afford; taking into consideration the energy use it is going to use during your operation as well.

Soaker Hose and Thomas Pump are a BAD combo. Trust me; I've pounded soaker hose for hours with a hammer making it more porous, and I have several Thomas Pumps in my trash bin.

Look on eBay. I think that is actually where I got both the blowers that I had running.

Like I mentioned before though - even though Krissy said that you "need aeration" in the bottom bucket - it is not true, and works better if you try and keep as much root mass as possible in your TOP bucket.

Tip: Do this by increasing your root zone area. Think larger buckets. Rubbermaid makes a nice 10gal sized bucket that looks like it might work well :
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100643602

This will give you twice the area for root mass to begin with.

Another Tip : Scrap the LavaRock! Like Yesterday! Try perlite for a more inert, balanced, workable media.


Hope that points you in the right direction. Anything else?

Take Care,

SYK

P.S. Do a search for "SYK" on the forums here to get a little bit of my history if you like.

 

[~SYK~]

I’ve been growing in a Rubbermaid DWC recirculating system that I am converting to a KBS bucket design.

The bucket design is two nested black 5 gallon buckets with a spacer inbetween. I’m using a section of PVC for a spacer instead of the 1 gallon bucket. Not a big change and one that’s been done all over the place. Spacer height is 8.5".

The goal is to get a 1-2 inch froth or film of nutrients in the bottom of the lower bucket using air forced into your nutrient solution.

Please see my suggestion about increasing your root space and media.

Good luck at getting a froth from your nutes that causes NFT action in the bottom bucket. Kr78^y preached this, however in 4 years now, I have yet to be able to get a 'froth of nutes' in that small of an area.

I would scrap the water in the bottom bucket all together and just have an open air space in there.

You will notice significant "air root pruning" that will occur naturally when the roots leave the top bucket. Or, you can try and get froth to occur in your bottom bucket. All this ever lead to for me was root rot and pythium problems.

Are you using a chiller?

Are you going to use a fogger in your room?

Is this going to be a bare bulb system?

A/C - what kind and how much?

don’t cheap out on the pump and expect to get his results…you need extreme NFT film/froth on the roots to grow krusty’s plants.

I know Kristy "said" this ... but even HE never actually got it to work; try and find a picture online of froth in the bottom bucket that Krusty made. . . not trying to burst your bubble - just letting you know that the pump had NOTHING to do with superior results using a system like this.

KBS growers’ improvement: Regenerative blower with Alita HDPE Porous Tube
Over the last 5 years, some kbs growers have rejected the soaker hose for its tendency to clog and the extremely high psi required to run it (high psi means you need the loud compressor pump) and improved the system with a regenerative blower and porous PVC diffuser pipe.

Yep, and we have improved it past that as well - see my suggestions to you.

I have absolutely no clue how you hook the PVC diffuser pipe up to lines/pipes that go back to the blower and I have no clue what a bucket design with these diffuser tubes would look like…so chime in if you know anything about this…. Also, what diameter pipe is used?

Simple - I plumbed mine with PVC - starting at the pump and going all the way to my buckets (just my rez(s) now)

Again - Use the largest diameter pipe you can afford to, less friction loss and less heat generated. You may want to come off the pump with a piece of steel hose (have done this before) before joining to the PVC, because the compressed air that comes out of the blower is warm and will heat up the PVC over time.

Porous PVC tube manufacturer: http://www.alita.com/diffuser/polyethylene.php
Porous PVC tube retail: http://www.aquamerik.com/catalogue/produits.cgi?category=diffuseurs_pvcporeux&lg=eng

WHOLEY SHIT - that is expensive! The manufacturer is right here in my backyard, and I used to buy like 100' at a time (so I could replace it when it died, soon) ... maybe that is why I got $10 per foot pricing - but DAMN that is expensive on that site !!


Hope it Helps

SYK

 

[purpledomgoddes]

excellent responses syk. think recall u+no-one+hygradechronic+ couple others from og/cw days.

good poster to check out for experience and insight.

ran krusty b4. another option is to just use cheapest air pump available @ general store in ea bucket. hose directly into bottom bucket. no air stones/diffusers/pipes/etc.

also, whichever method decided upon, would place/wrap/affix air hose/tube ONTO SIDES/INNER-WALLS of bucket/tub - ABOVE WATER LINE. no roots to get tangled in.

have recently considered simply drilling the entire 5 gal bucket full of holes, not just bottom 6". so entire bucket gets air flow of room recycled thru media (sticking w/ lava rock). place bucket(s) in kiddie pool/pond liner box/raised nft-type channels for drainage. no air pumps/water pumps etc. just the turbulent+laminate air flow of the room itself, permeating the media thru a hundred holes from top-to-bottom of bucket. like 'air pot'. roots air/hand pruned, or encouraged to grow into covered layer of shallow water (mini-res) of pond/pool (>2"). maybe have oscillating fan blowing onto lattice-holed sides of buckets/tubs. only covered part is bottom 2" of water. kind of like wick system. place plant into 5 gal bucket from 4" square pot of coco, so that root ball will never really dry out due to coco water retention. maybe wicks already in 5 gal bucket, thru bottom hole to 2" min-res, so when transplanted plant gets to new home, can place coco right on top of 5/8" nylon wicks just idea, but doable.

currently coco+lava rock in old kbs buckets, on top of spacer in 2d bucket. no air stones. roots grow into bottom bucket, or are pruned by air/hand. did both to see. in root pruned via snipping off all tips coming thru holes, roots grew laterally+up/around. when permitted to grow into 2d bottom bucket, w/ out air stone, was ok. let a couple just sit in whatever run-off was in bucket and still drank it up. others changed bottom res and good results there too. if root pruned, roots will seek to fill up media IN bucket, instead of being allowed to grow into 2nd bucket. can force plant to make roots grow UP and fill entire bucket. in pure kbs, roots usually take up bottom 1/3-2/3 of bucket, and then go out into bottom container. top 2/3-1/3 of media is un-used.

hydrogen peroxide helps either way. point is, plant will adapt to whatever method is chosen. after that the stability of the regime is the key. the plant wants 'stress free environment', as the clown said.

after dwc/kbs/aero, etc. w/ customary water/air pumps/feed+air lines, keeping it simple (yet) sophisticated is objective. hoses, pumps, etc. just get in way of enjoying garden. coco+lava works well for kbs system, or air pot-type system. want to grow plant, not grow machines/gardening tools. the less machines, the better; more attention can be paid to plants themselves.

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

 

[been]

Ah, SYK is back!

Sounds like you've pretty much scrapped the KBS all together. Have you ever tried running without a blower? Seems like as long as you can feed continuously with 68* nutrient and vertical lighting, everything else just takes care of itself.

What do you think about Bio-Buckets and RDWC?

 

[~SYK~]

:grin:

Thank You.

Not scrapped, still using Vertical Lighting and growing trees.

Though - I did take a year and a half to improve on my SOG growing style ... I have now reverted back to trees (yes, reverted back) due to local laws and only needing so much medicine for myself.

MANY changes had to be made IMO to get the "system" running at optimum IMO.

The 'system' is much more complex than just rez temp and vertical lighting.

Bio-Buckets and RDWC each have their place. In my 82deg room however, it is not the best system design to have that much water in the actual growing room - my rezs are in a control room off the side of my growing area.

Every system works; if dialed in and paid attention to by the grower.

Hope it Helps

SYK

 

[snowkitty]

SYK, no introduction needed. I'm tickled you showed up to post! Everyone has been so helpful...I feel much better being able to run ideas past all of you with more experience. Now I'm going to spend a few hours reading up on foggers and regenerative blowers and other things I wish I'd figured out a month ago...

To answer your other question (not sure if it was in this thread or not), yes, I do have the total environmental control going on. Water chiller in-line with my res, 24000 BTU a/c, co2 generator. humidity and CO2 controllers, and charcoal-fiiltered out-take fan connected to the controller. Lighting is bare vertical bulbs,

Still trying to figure out my fogger and my aeration method.

Guess that means my final bucket design / res / drain line / feed line design is still up in the air. I own the 5 gallon buckets and have drilled holes in the upper ones to make mesh-pot like bottoms. Also own the passive/active reservoirs and I was planning to use drain lines I already have in BULK from my last set-up. It is 1 1/4 flexible hose and fittings.

I've got a feedlines and a pump from my last set-up that I'm planning to re-use...just standard spaghetti feed lines, 2 per bucket.

 

[~SYK~]

Another Tip :

You could make it a step easier on yourself and forgo drilling all those small holes in your buckets.

Try this :

Grab a 3-4" hole saw and drill 3-4 holes in the bottom of your bucket.

Head over to the local foreclosed property on your block (there are many around) and grab a screen door. (( just kidding of course, a better idea is a fresh piece of screen from Home DePot ))

Cut a nice round piece of your plastic coated fiberglass screen (common insect screen mesh) and slap it in the bottom.

Throw your perlite in there ... and you are done.

Wish to god you had never heard of using Lava Rock in this system .....

Thank your lucky stars for all you have in life ...

I would also recommend adding a 1/2" piece of pvc that goes all the way from the bottom of the bucket and up about 18" above the media. Push this down into the center of the perlite once you get your buckets loaded up. Use a short piece of velco wire strap (check amazon) to attach the plant to the stake. Adjust weekly. This will keep your plants sturdy where you want them.

Hope it Helps

SYK

 

[~SYK~]

To answer your other question (not sure if it was in this thread or not), yes, I do have the total environmental control going on. Water chiller in-line with my res, 24000 BTU a/c, co2 generator. humidity and CO2 controllers, and charcoal-fiiltered out-take fan connected to the controller. Lighting is bare vertical bulbs,

Kewl.

Still trying to figure out my fogger and my aeration method.

I believe I have given you input on both.

Guess that means my final bucket design / res / drain line / feed line design is still up in the air. I own the 5 gallon buckets and have drilled holes in the upper ones to make mesh-pot like bottoms. Also own the passive/active reservoirs and I was planning to use drain lines I already have in BULK from my last set-up. It is 1 1/4 flexible hose and fittings.

I'd look into those larger buckets (10gal rubbermaid brute off ebay is what I use) to expand your root zone. Some Canadian Growers growing trees that I have spoken with even use up to 25gal trash cans to give their girls room to grow in.

1 1/4" fittings should work fine.. Would be best if you had a way to check for/clear root clogging if it happens.

Maybe a union joint right after the pipe leaves the bucket that you could unscrew weekly late in flower and make sure the roots arent clogging.

Roots clogging drain lines cause MAJOR floods and cause plants to die.

...from experience ...

Looks like you are on your way.

Now it is time for the picts.

I LOVE looking at grow room build out picts :grin:

GoodNight

SYK

 

[Skyburn]

Why is perlite better then lava rocks?

 

[~SYK~]

Perlite is an inert medium which retains high amounts of water and air. Oh, and it is lightweight and easy to clean. Get the "Big and Chunky" stuff - I think Fox Farm distributes it.

Lava Rock is VERY unstable (just speaking from my own *years* of experience fighting lava rock before making the change)

Lava Rock is the BANE of this system.

Ask ANY seasoned KBS grower.

Good Luck

SYK

 

[been]

I really like those 10 gallon Rubbermaid trashcans. That's huge right there.

 

[Skyburn]

Do you still feed 24/7 with perlite?

 

[Hydropimp]

SYK did you have a bird on your avator in OG?

 

[snowkitty]

I'm working on getting a diagram of my bucket design to show you guys. And take pictures...but in a way that explains it...

Quick question...

I think I see MH bulbs in a lot of the KBS set-up pictures I've downloaded. Is MH a part of the lighting set-up, and if so, how many and where?

I have old skool krusty diagrams and they all show 1000W HPS down the center of two rows of plants and the 600W HPS around the outside.

 

[snowkitty]

Perlite is an inert medium which retains high amounts of water and air. Oh, and it is lightweight and easy to clean. Get the "Big and Chunky" stuff - I think Fox Farm distributes it.

Lava Rock is VERY unstable (just speaking from my own *years* of experience fighting lava rock before making the change)

Lava Rock is the BANE of this system.

Ask ANY seasoned KBS grower.

Good Luck

SYK

Ugh...says the gardner who got a truck bed full of lava rock delivered just last week...

I had some thoughts about still using it...so I had to go read up on lava rock experiences...here's what I've come up with

Drawbacks to lava rock

• sharp...roots get damaged if the plant shifts (I figured I could overcome this one by not moving them...lol)
• need to be rinsed to get rid of grit (guess who has been doing that for a week straight now)
• can have unstable pH if not rinsed well, or it might not even be possible to rinse it well enough to avoid pH fluctuations
• crevices encourage bacterial growth, which is great in bio buckets but might lead to baddies you're not managing the bacterial growth...some people use h2o2
• heavy (but this is a positive if you are using it to stabilize your treez)
• may contain traces of heavy metals...which would fuck with your nutrient schedule and could cause deficiencies...seems like this all depends on the batch you get in your area

SK will be getting some Fox Farm Big & Chunky perlite.. Available in either 1 cu. foot ($10) or 4 cu. foot bags ($40). Looks like I own a bunch of decorative lava rock now...yay...

 

[purpledomgoddes]

Ugh...says the gardner who got a truck bed full of lava rock delivered just last week...

I had some thoughts about still using it...so I had to go read up on lava rock experiences...here's what I've come up with

Drawbacks to lava rock

• sharp...roots get damaged if the plant shifts (I figured I could overcome this one by not moving them...lol)
• need to be rinsed to get rid of grit (guess who has been doing that for a week straight now)
• can have unstable pH if not rinsed well, or it might not even be possible to rinse it well enough to avoid pH fluctuations
• crevices encourage bacterial growth, which is great in bio buckets but might lead to baddies you're not managing the bacterial growth...some people use h2o2
• heavy (but this is a positive if you are using it to stabilize your treez)
• may contain traces of heavy metals...which would fuck with your nutrient schedule and could cause deficiencies...seems like this all depends on the batch you get in your area

SK will be getting some Fox Farm Big & Chunky perlite.. Available in either 1 cu. foot ($10) or 4 cu. foot bags ($40). Looks like I own a bunch of decorative lava rock now...yay...

[/quote]Throw your perlite in there ... and you are done.

Wish to god you had never heard of using Lava Rock in this system .....

Thank your lucky stars for all you have in life ...

I would also recommend adding a 1/2" piece of pvc that goes all the way from the bottom of the bucket and up about 18" above the media. Push this down into the center of the perlite once you get your buckets loaded up. Use a short piece of velco wire strap (check amazon) to attach the plant to the stake. Adjust weekly. This will keep your plants sturdy where you want them.[/quote]

advantages to lava rock:
durability. have had same lava since 2k. have blended w/ coco, vermiculite, soil, and used solo. still usable. re-used, re-reused.

main disadvantage:
never-ending sludge.

have ran aero w/ 0 media b4, w/ knee pad neoprene substitutes for support.
excellent points above.
can use a 2-3 layer stack of knee pads for for stem/stalk base support, and additionally use pvc+velcro strap [as suggested by syk]/(or, 12/3 romex) to
supply further rigid support.

then there is no need for lava rock, perlite, or any other media in bucket. this creates more volume for roots as well. basically, aeroponics. can run same 24/7 drip/waterfall flow over roots in bucket. aero does not require 'xyz micron droplets, 50+ psi water pumps', etc. only requires 100% rh in the root zone.
initial ein geddi aero is basically kbs system - w/ out lava/perlite/media.

may be OPTION to consider.

have been trying to get rid of machines/pumps, etc. getting rid of media all together is good goal to strive for.

enjoy your garden!

 

[~SYK~]

Drawbacks to lava rock

• sharp...roots get damaged if the plant shifts (I figured I could overcome this one by not moving them...lol)
• need to be rinsed to get rid of grit (guess who has been doing that for a week straight now)
• can have unstable pH if not rinsed well, or it might not even be possible to rinse it well enough to avoid pH fluctuations
• crevices encourage bacterial growth, which is great in bio buckets but might lead to baddies you're not managing the bacterial growth...some people use h2o2
• heavy (but this is a positive if you are using it to stabilize your treez)
• may contain traces of heavy metals...which would fuck with your nutrient schedule and could cause deficiencies...seems like this all depends on the batch you get in your area

I like your research - Respect.

... where are the 'advantages' - there has to be at least one no?

Seriously though - smart move on not using it; trust me (I know that is hard coming from a stranger)

Yes - all those things you mentioned are problematic.

What I used to do was load up the back of a pickup and park on a hill. Then I would use my power washer to wash the shit out of the rock while I scooped it around with a shovel. Guess who doesnt miss that!

It also harbors bacteria because of all the small pores. While it is reusable, it should be cleaned (baked or boiled) between uses (pain in the ass)

the biggest problems though is the minerals that may be in there, which as you noticed in your research (and me firsthand because I listened to the Kman and used lava til I learned better) causes PH problems.

Perlite IMO is the 'perfect' media.

Completely inert.
Resists Overwatering.
Lightweight and easy to move.
Easy to clean and dispose of.

... I could go on ...

Good Luck

SYK

 

[~SYK~]

Quick question...

I think I see MH bulbs in a lot of the KBS set-up pictures I've downloaded. Is MH a part of the lighting set-up, and if so, how many and where?

Looking forward to the picts

Yes - originally Krusty said that a KBS room should have about 15% MH bulbs.

I have tried both, using MH and using just HPS in my flower rooms.

I have never noticed a difference.

I only have HPS bulbs in my flower room now.

Good Luck

SYK

 

[purpledomgoddes]

poster syk...

ever considered no media?

just plant supports?