Is this calcium deficiency?

[Koondense]

Explain the mechanism. "Root bound" is some 19th century blood letting mumbo jumbo. It's like telling someone they have tight pants syndrome. Explain what's actually happejinf

Yeah, it sounds simplified but that's basically it.
More correctly...
The ratio of roots/medium is disproportionate for further healthy root development and function. It basically means there is not enough medium to support the aeration, retain water and nutrients available which leads to ph and ec imbalances which further slows the plant's development and general health.
It also depends on medium of course, dwc and organic soil allow for different ratios of roots/medium because of different ways of providing needed elements to the roots.
Think of it similarly to overpopulation and food scarcity.
I hope it's somehow clearer now.

Cheers

 

[f-e]

Edit: I missed an entire page of the thread. My reply is thus, redundant



N is very easy to wash out, and N deficiency is what I'm seeing.

I get soil reports done, and N isn't on basic or intermediary level tests. Everything else can be corrected for in the field, but the years N needs adding at the right time. It just washes away.

I think you washed away your N, and visibly need to put some back.

The numbers... well ya know.

Make up a flower feed with RO and calmag, and leach them. Use a feed that would work in coco or hydro. Something complete as it's going to be a good flushing. The RO and calmag is really to get some N. Most calmag has almost as much N as calcium. You don't want flowering calmag.
Or if you just have tap, use a grow feed. You could use a little PK in with the grow to balance it more like bloom.
If you don't care about the bio aspect, you could get a high N turf feed. Miracle grow. Anything leaning towards N, but they will all be N in forms that are not instantly available. Like Urea.

If you are not ready for calculating the N gained from other ferts, just stick with what you know. I might just use some grow and for every 10ml of grow used, add 1ml of PK. That makes a higher N bloom feed using just about anybodies bottles. Though I have not looked at yours specifically.

Or... new compost. Let the roots out into something fresh. Though after stretch, they are not likely to be rooting out much.



Some good posts here.

 

[Boio_]

HempKat I can't thank you enough for taking the time. Here's an oddity to think about. The PH pen is calibrated and I use 6.5 ph water. Now another plant dropped down to 4.5 in the runoff, while the lowest one dropped to 3.5. The plant previously at 6.6ph stayed there. I can not explain it. See attached how the plants look now. There is still some damage on the newest leaves, which makes sense with that run off.

f-e What is RO in this case. It's not run off, right? I've been using a little calmag.

Koondense Thank you for the analogy. That works!

 

[HempKat]

HempKat I can't thank you enough for taking the time. Here's an oddity to think about. The PH pen is calibrated and I use 6.5 ph water. Now another plant dropped down to 4.5 in the runoff, while the lowest one dropped to 3.5. The plant previously at 6.6ph stayed there. I can not explain it. See attached how the plants look now. There is still some damage on the newest leaves, which makes sense with that run off.

f-e What is RO in this case. It's not run off, right? I've been using a little calmag.

Koondense Thank you for the analogy. That works!

Well I don't feel deserving of any thanks yet because you still seem to be having the problem. There is obviously something in the soil that is driving the ph down, so maybe the right thing to do is be giving it something with a higher ph. Unfortunately the difference between 4.5 or 3.5 from 6.5 is pretty substantial. So one might think the answer is to give water that is 8.5 or 9.5 but I would never recommend that. At this point it's probably too late for this but in the future you might want to try mixing pelletized dolomite lime into the soil. They say that buffers to ph to the level you want and that's something I always added to my soil at the start and I never had any real ph problems. I can't promise that's the answer because in my case maybe something else was keeping the ph were it was supposed to be but it can't hurt I only used 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of soil which isn't really all that much although that was the suggested rate I found others say one should use. There is something else about dolomite lime that is good though and that is that it naturally adds magnesium and calcium to the soil. Now the reason I say it's probably too late is that in pelletized form that makes it kind of a time released additive which means that it takes time before it starts breaking down and doing much of anything If indeed you do have 2-3 weeks until harvest that's really not much time for the dolomite lime to really start making a difference. As for the damage any damage on any leaves whether old or new will remain, when I say look to new growth to see if the problem is corrected I'm talking about new growth that shows up after you think the problem has been corrected and unfortunately if they're as close to finish as you say there's not going to get much if any new growth.

 

[f-e]

RO is Reverse Osmosis. A water filtering system that strips everything.

 

[HempKat]

I must admit I kind of skipped over F-e's last post before this one. I did glance at it to see if I could tell what he meant by RO and it turns out I did, but then I decided not to answer that because you specifically asked him and I didn't want him to perceive me as trying to speak for him. What I missed was where he was seeing N deficiency. I see that as well and I was tempted to suggest adding something like fish emulsion (Alaskan Fish Fertilizer is a popular brand) Fish emulsion is an organic food which most consider to be a good thing and it's mostly Nitrogen with an NPK of 5-1-1 (although Alaskan Fish Fertilizer does have a bloom formula that has a different NPK) As fertilizers go fish emulsion is pretty mild as long as you stick with suggested dosages based on water volume. What held me back though is you saying you had two plants with ph values low enough to lock out nitrogen so it's hard to know if it got washed out or is just locked out. Plus you said the new soil you added is all mix which I'm taking as meaning there is some fertilizer there too so adding more N could potentially compound the problems if the N is just locked out because of the ph. Now one good thing about adding N if it is just a straight up deficiency, even though I said damaged leaves don't come back that doesn't necessarily apply to leaves that have gone pale green due to lack of Nitrogen. One of Nitrogen's main functions is to help the plant to produce Chlorophyll and it's Chlorophyll that gives the plant a nice green color. Chlorophyll is what helps the plant convert light into food so if the leaves are light green due to lack of Nitrogen causing lack of Chlorophyll the plant will have a harder time getting fuel for growth from the light. Adding Nitrogen to a plant that is deficient will help turn light green leaves back to a healthier green and that will improve it's ability to feed from the light. It's about the only sort of damage I've ever seen reversed in leaves that became damaged from nutrient deficiency. Oh one other thing to be forewarned about fish emulsion, it smells pretty bad. You get used to it after a few days but it will add a noticeable odor to your grow space.

Now there is still the question of is the N deficiency due to the N being washed out or locked out? You only posted two pics to show how the plants are looking, so I assume those are the two with the lower ph values. If my assumption is correct and the third plant looks more like it has a normal healthy green color then while it's still not proof it would strongly suggest the issue is the ph in the other two is locking out the Nitrogen and therefore getting the ph right should allow the plant to start getting the N that may still be in the soil. In that case I would hold off on adding any nitrogen to give the plant a chance to strat taking up what is already there which you should start to see the leaves darken in a couple to three days. Now if they get much darker then the other that would likely mean there is a lot of N in the soil because over feeding nitrogen will turn the leaves a very dark green. If that happens don't panic it shouldn't harm the plants much if at all but definitely don't give them additional nitrogen, especially so close to harvest.

Now if on the other hand all three plants have lots of leaves with the same light green color then that would strongly suggest f-e is right and the N got washed out somewhere along the way. The one plant sounds like it has been pretty steady at 6.6 ph and that's a perfectly fine level for Nitrogen uptake, so if it's there that plant should be a darker green then the others. If it isn't then that means it probably isn't there. Now keep in mind for additional N to help the other two you still need to get the ph up to around 6.5 otherwise it will still be locked out even if before it just wasn't there at all.

 

[Boio_]

HempKat You've already given me plenty new and easy to digest information. I appreciate it greatly and will keep coming back to this thread for future grows until I have fully worked through it. I've taken a note to test pelletized dolomite lime in the future, but decided to not try any more fixes on this grow. Instead I will pay close attention and use two pH pens for my next one as I think the pH issues will likely fix the nutrient issues. The new growth looks healthier even though the some damage is still occurring so I think the repotting was a good idea.

f-e Is that something you would consider essential to own as a new grower? As stated above I will focus on the pH of the soil for now. Maybe by learning that "slushy" technique where soil is mixed with water.


Question that came to mind reading through this thread:

1. How often do you calibrate your pH pens?

Before my cheap pen broke I calibrated it a few times but then figured since the pH of the tap water was consistently 7.8 I might as well calibrate the pH pen using that. Now I wonder if I am missing something very obvious and whether that could have been a mistake. The new pen by BlueLab, being more expensive should be more reliable (given we can trust the free market to set a reasonable price according to quality).

Have a good Sunday everyone!

 

[HempKat]

HempKat You've already given me plenty new and easy to digest information. I appreciate it greatly and will keep coming back to this thread for future grows until I have fully worked through it. I've taken a note to test pelletized dolomite lime in the future, but decided to not try any more fixes on this grow. Instead I will pay close attention and use two pH pens for my next one as I think the pH issues will likely fix the nutrient issues. The new growth looks healthier even though the some damage is still occurring so I think the repotting was a good idea.

f-e Is that something you would consider essential to own as a new grower? As stated above I will focus on the pH of the soil for now. Maybe by learning that "slushy" technique where soil is mixed with water.


Question that came to mind reading through this thread:

1. How often do you calibrate your pH pens?

Before my cheap pen broke I calibrated it a few times but then figured since the pH of the tap water was consistently 7.8 I might as well calibrate the pH pen using that. Now I wonder if I am missing something very obvious and whether that could have been a mistake. The new pen by BlueLab, being more expensive should be more reliable (given we can trust the free market to set a reasonable price according to quality).

Have a good Sunday everyone!

I think I mentioned it before but on the chance I didn't, I've been unable to grow for several years now due to financial and health limitations, as a result some things from my memory are a little fuzzy but if I'm remembering correctly the ph pe I had came with a solution that had a know value to use for calibration. I was fairly fortunate though in that where I lived I had well water that always measured 6.4 ph from the tap and between that and things like dolomite lime I almost never had a ph problem. The only time I recall having a problem was when I tried a new fertilizer (can't remember which one but it was a popular brand) and it caused pretty dramatic ph changes. So I just stopped using it and went back to one of the brands I used more often and was comfortable with. Anyway as far as how often I would calibrate, I don't remember exactly but it was whatever the directions that came with the pen said. However since I so rarely had ph issues and after that one experience I stopped using new brands of fertilizer that I wasn't familiar with, the last couple of grows I did, I stop testing my ph regularly. Which isn't advisable for most situations other then having an RO system that stipes things out and leaves you with a steady ph or using store bought distilled water (which isn't practical for most grows due to the added expense). The reason I say it's not advisible is things happen in nature that can cause well water and treated water to change their ph values. So you can't completely trust that your ph will always be the same even when you've had a long period of time where it was. For me I got lucky and when I was actively growing my well water always stayed constant but since it's been a number of years now since I've grown, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that the ph of my well water has shifted. In other words it's best to not get too comfortable and start assuming things will always stay the same. Regular checking can help avoid any surprises and of course regular checking translates to regular calibration checks as well.

The more expensive pens do tend to remain reliable and accurate for longer periods of time but even in them the head of the pen where the thing that really measures the ph will fail over time and need replacing. Oh and yeah, the dolomite lime thing is something to try on future grows. Like I said, at 2-3 weeks there's probably not enough time left for the dolomite lime to make much of a difference. It's really something that should be mixed into your soil along with any other soil amendments/additives you might use, before you put the soil in a pot with a new seed or clone.

 

[f-e]

An RO filter is used for bad water areas, but it's not usually needed. It's advised against as much as it's recommended. Most water supplies contain useful calcium and offer some pH buffering. However some supplies have things at levels toxic to plants. So people will use an RO filter to clean the water. After cleaning, we must put that calcium (and some other bits) back in the water, as our feeds expect a certain amount to come from the tap, and formulate the feeds as such. It's common practice to mix some tap water back in with the RO in order to get things straight again. However, in hobby grows this mixing idea passes people by and most just use calmag to put the calcium back. However, there is a problem there, that the tap adds general hardness that is useful for buffering the pH against swings over time.

All that aside. I asked if you used RO, as correcting it with calmag usually adds N. A typical calmag adds almost as much N as it does calcium. I was looking for a way to get more N in your tank.

N uptake is a lot better at higher pH levels. Fixing your pH is the right course of action.

Feed accumulation will lower substrate pH, as feed is generally acidic. I missed it, if you spoke of EC.


Overall, we certainly have a plant that is struggling. The lighting is probably too much at the moment, putting further strain in the plant. Particularly the root system, which doesn't wow me. A struggling plant almost always (always) likes some rest days.


Get the pH right, and use your veg food for a quick nitrogen fix. I don't see any PK problems so a few days on grow food can only be a good thing. If you really wanted, you could fortify the grow food with the PK it lacks when compared to bloom food. You will be fine for a few days though. Will excess food a real possibility, any fortification idea would need real reason. We just don't see a PK deficient plant.



As an off topic, my bloom recipe used to be grow food, with 10% added by volume, of PK (13/14ish)

 

[Boio_]

HempKat Sorry to hear about your health issues and I hope you get them in check. I relate as I injured my self 3 years ago and am still struggling to heal it to this day.

f-e I see. What does PK mean? I am using the fertilizers mentioned and when you say grow and bloom are you referring to them or simply the mix one would use for the respective phases?

Now for the good news. The pH has, albeit not at 6.5, stabilized at 6.9 for all of the plants. It seems they just took a better flushing and I can now work to get the run off down to 6.5. I haven't been giving them anything other than water and sometimes a shot of calmag in addition to the new all mix soil.

 

[f-e]

I think you said you have grow and bloom? from biobizz.
Many will grow with the grow and flower with the bloom. Some get a bit more adventurous and spend the first few weeks of flower using a blend of the two. I am guessing you are in flower using bloom(and some other stuff you probably shouldn't bother with).
Food carries an NPK ratio label as primary information. Nitrogen Phosphorous and Potassium. The bloom food has less N than the grow, but more P and K. Your plants want more N than they are getting from that bloom food you have. The grow food you have has more N in it. Less P&K though. It's not ideal to have less P&K but right now your plants are saying nothing about how much P&K they have been getting, but sure want some more N.

Now your pH is higher, they will get the N easier. I would still switch back to grow food though for a couple of days, just to see to it that they can get some at this time.

 

[HempKat]

Now for the good news. The pH has, albeit not at 6.5, stabilized at 6.9 for all of the plants. It seems they just took a better flushing and I can now work to get the run off down to 6.5. I haven't been giving them anything other than water and sometimes a shot of calmag in addition to the new all mix soil. [/QUOTE]

While at the high end of what is tolerable at least at 6.9 most of the nutrients are now available to the plant. The only thing that should be locked out is manganese and iron but at the point you're at I'm not so sure those two being locked out make much of a difference. Do be mindful that if the ph should swing just a little higher then all nutrients will become locked out again just at the opposite extreme of the ph range. So just keep doing what you're doing and do keep trying to get the ph closer to 6.5 if you can.

 

[Boio_]

f-e Correct. I meantioned it, I just wanted to make sure we are talking about the same thing. I will try that now that the pH is stabilizing. Today the plant I watered first showed run off pH 6.7 which leads me to believe pH will from now on slowly settle towards 6.5. New growth looks healthier too.

HempKat I'm on it, good Sir! Calibrating the pH pen more often now just to make sure until I have a good feel for it. The containers I prepare the water in are marked at 1 litre now which should make it easy to develop a formula that will require measuring less often in combination with a dropper. Eventually I will have a chart for each phase of the amount of pH down, nutrients and water for a litre.

 

[f-e]

The state of that new growth is a key factor in deciding to use a bit of grow or not. I think (without seeing the change) That some more N will be a good thing. We don't want to get excessive with it though.

 

[Boio_]

Alright, I took picture of the upper and lower part of each plant. You will see that on the lower part some of the new growth looks good one one plant, while on the others it is still pale. Keep in mind this is autoflower...would you still clip the completely dead leaves? (there is a lot of them). The pH of all the plants run off yesterday was 6.7, so we are slowly going towards optimum now. The damage on the upper parts persists it seems, but then again only recently was the pH lowered. It is very interesting to see the effects and the new pH pen seems to work much better. I have not looked at EC values anymore, figuring I'll fix one thing at a time and I couldn't change that value anyways. Is that a mistake? I am assuming the nutrients in the new soil + the little calmag I feed should suffice. If not I will get right on it.

 

[Boio_]

The pictures.

 

[Boio_]

HempKat Something interesting happened yesterday. I added a very small amount of calmag to the feed water and watered one plant with it. While the watering before the pH was lowering to 6.7 this time the run off somehow inexplicably to me plummeted to 5.7. Any ideas how that could have happened? The water was controlled to 6.5.

 

[HempKat]

HempKat Something interesting happened yesterday. I added a very small amount of calmag to the feed water and watered one plant with it. While the watering before the pH was lowering to 6.7 this time the run off somehow inexplicably to me plummeted to 5.7. Any ideas how that could have happened? The water was controlled to 6.5.

when you say the water was controlled to 6.5 was that before or after you added the calmag? I don't recall if I made this clear in earlier posts so I'll just treat it like I didn't but when you measure the water going in you do so after you've mixed in any fertilizer or other additives. With the way you describe it, I would take that as an indication that it's the calmag that has been lowering your ph. I've never used a calmag solution before so I have no idea of whether or not it normally lowers ph so much. Keep in mind though, the low ph reading could also be a result of an unreliable ph meter.

 

[Boio_]

HempKat Sorry for the late reply, a lot of things happened. I think that was definitely one of the mistakes in the beginning, but I quickly corrected that one. Till harvest I still had issues with the pH sometime inexplicably dropping multiple points, even after using two different calibrated pH pens. I am currently drying my first buds ever and I am very excited to start a new grow and improve it next year. Your help is greatly appreciated, have a nice Christmas time over there!

 

[44:86N]

I do like crossover tech, and DIY.

I only grow in potting mixes, so I don't really need to know an exact number for my pH, just the RANGE.

I use API pH Test Kit for freshwater aquariums. Works every time, no batteries or nothin' even though I am just getting a sense of what range the pH is in.

Less than $10, too!