Is this calcium deficiency?

[Boio_]

Hello Everyone,

this is my first grow and I ran into all sorts of trouble, but am having a lot of fun. I first assumed the tacoing leaves meant that they were getting light burn and so increased the distance to my lamp, which now turned out to have made my plants become much higher than they should have been. (Quick one royal queen seeds says it should be 50-60cm but they are about 90cm in height now). The damage persisted. Here is the data I have:

Soil: BioBizz light mix
Nutes: Biobizz Max, Bloom and Grow as well as later on Calmag (thinking I have a Calcium deficiency)
pH down: Biobizz ph down
Pot size: 2 litres
Light: Sanlight q2w 50w
light schedule: 18/6
Strain: Quick One (Royal Queen Seeds)
Tent 40x40x140 (now moved em into a 40x80x160 to accommodate for height

The run off pH of one plant was way to low for some reason at around 4.5 with an E of 1.7 while the other two had good pH in runoff at 6.1 and 6.5 but one of them having a very high EC of 3.9. My guess is, that I fed nutrients too often (every waterin) while watering too often (in the beginning everyday, until I realized and only did it about every 2 days). What I do not understand is why the pH and EC differ so much, as I always fed them the same nutes and watered equally (not in amount, but until some water ran through the soil and came out on the bottom). After the flush I was able to raise the 4.5 pH to 6 and lower the 3.9 EC to 2. The damage persisted and new leaves now a week later are bright green while lower leaves straight up die and crisp up.

Is this Calcium deficiency brought upon me due to my imbalanced pH? My shitty milwaukee pH meter broke and I ordered a Bluelab one.

 

[Koondense]

They look rootbound,
I suggest up-potting to 3.5L pots, soil BioBizz Allmix. You only need water for the rest of the grow.
Also increase airflow in mid flowering.

Cheers

 

[HempKat]

Looks and sounds like you have multiple problems. It does look like they might be root bound which will cause leaves to yellow and drop of but what you described were definite issues of overwatering. I assume what you called tacoing is what is often called leaf cupping which can be caused by a number of things including over watering and the grow space being too warm. There was definitely ph issues with two plants being too low in ph, the one at 6.5 was fine and that would be supported if it was the one with the fewest problems. My guess is the one with the lowest ph is also the one with the worst issues and the high EC. since at a ph of 4.5 virtually all nutrients were locked out and with you feeding and watering daily the fertilizer was just continually building up to toxic levels. The one at 6.1 was just a little low but even at 6.1 all your main flower nutrients as well as calcium and magnesium were locked out. PH for soil should be ideally at 6.5 but can go slightly lower or higher although in flower it would be better to be 6.5 or slightly higher 6.0 is still too low and will have most nutrients locked out.

If it were me, I would transplant them to slightly bigger pots to relieve any potential rootbound issues and give them noting but water and get the run off ph at 6.5. It might take a few days before you see signs of improvement but it will be in new growth, the leaves that have been negatively impacted will not become healthy looking again, at best they'll die off at a slower rate. Once the plant starts looking better you can begin gradually feeding them as needed. You shouldn't be watering any more frequently the once every other day and the maximum number of feeding per week should be 2 with every 3rd watering being just plain water and the whole time the ph should be no lower then 6.3 and no higher then 6.8 and since they're flowering the range really should be no lower then 6.5 and no higher then 6.8.

Again the EC was likely highest on the plant getting the lowest ph because the nutrients were just sitting there in the soil with more being added daily. If the reason you got to watering them daily was because they would start to wilt if you waited longer that was when your plants were getting root bound. I've attached a graphic that shows the relationship between ph and nutrient uptake when growing in soil. The ranges are different for plants being grown in hydro..

 

[Boio_]

Thank you both so much for your response. HempKat I will get right to that. Two questions remain: should I just avoid 2 litre pots in general or would it have been fine if I hadn't overwatered? Secondly, the Allmix is generally better than light mix or do you only recommend it for this specific situation?

 

[Koondense]

Light mix is great for starting seeds and young plants, All mix is great for transplanting in bigger pots, you will still need a bit of grow and bloom ferts after 3 weeks in allmix.

Cheers

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Hello Everyone,

this is my first grow and I ran into all sorts of trouble, but am having a lot of fun. I first assumed the tacoing leaves meant that they were getting light burn and so increased the distance to my lamp, which now turned out to have made my plants become much higher than they should have been. (Quick one royal queen seeds says it should be 50-60cm but they are about 90cm in height now). The damage persisted. Here is the data I have:

Soil: BioBizz light mix
Pot size: 2 litres
Strain: Quick One (Royal Queen Seeds)

With an expected height of 3 feet indoors, they should be in 3 gallon/12 litre pots.

In soil the roots need a lot of space because they're doing most of the work of feeding and supporing the plant, including when the buds start to expand.

 

[Boio_]

TanzanianMagic They are autoflower and were supposed to reach less height than this. I watched a video where someone was going for a sort of mini SOG that wouldn't be possible here. Is there any way to work with smaller pots? Am I looking for a shorter strain, or should the pot size simply be considered a failed buy? As you see I have a lot of questions here haha, figured if people raise a plant in a pc then there should be enough space for a few more in a 40x40cm tent.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

TanzanianMagic They are autoflower and were supposed to reach less height than this. I watched a video where someone was going for a sort of mini SOG that wouldn't be possible here. Is there any way to work with smaller pots? Am I looking for a shorter strain, or should the pot size simply be considered a failed buy? As you see I have a lot of questions here haha, figured if people raise a plant in a pc then there should be enough space for a few more in a 40x40cm tent.

According to the RQS website, Quick One:

Quick One: A Small Plant With Fantastic Yields

Quick One grows to a stealthy height of 50–60cm indoors and 60–100cm outdoors. This small size makes her perfect for clandestine indoor grows, concealed corners of the garden, and guerrilla growing locations out in nature. Despite her size, she still produces satisfying yields. Indoor plants pump out 275–325g/m², whereas their outdoor counterparts offer a return of 100–150g/plant.

At one gallon per foot (30.48 cm), even the indoor height of 2 feet requires 2 gallons or 8 litres.

The thing about soil is that the yield is dependent on the ability of the roots to expand during flower. Root expansion is also key to preventing nutrient deficiencies.

If you want to limit the height of the plants to 2 or 3 feet, you should try low stress training. It also increases uniformity of flowering.

 

[HempKat]

Thank you both so much for your response. HempKat I will get right to that. Two questions remain: should I just avoid 2 litre pots in general or would it have been fine if I hadn't overwatered? Secondly, the Allmix is generally better than light mix or do you only recommend it for this specific situation?

You can really use whatever size pot you want but starting in a big pot makes it more difficult to get the watering right in the beginning since it takes some time for the roots to spread out. So what many do is they start in small pots to start (a litre or even smaller) then transplant up to a bigger pot about halfway thru veg and then transplant once more just before flower. Now in your case you were growing an auto flowering strain which complicates things a bit since the plant is in full control of when it's different growth phases start. I've never grown auto strains so I'm not really sure what the recommendation on pot size is but I can see where someone might think it better to start in a bigger pot then other non auto flowering plants.

It's hard for me to judge whether using a 2 litre pot should be avoided or not because I don't know what made you want to water as often as you did. If you watered every day because the soil seemed completely dried out every day then maybe starting in a bigger pot would have been the way to go. If on the other hand you just watered so often for no other reason then you thought that was the thing to do then yeah watering less often would have avoided much of the problems you ran into. The most common practice for judging when to water is done by judging the weight of the pot either just by feel or by actually weighing it. When you first put a seed or clone in a pot of soil, before you add any water you should either lift the pot to get a feel for the weight (less accurate) or actually weigh it (more accurate) then you water it until you see some drainage/run off. After that you check the weight daily either by lifting it and feeling the weight or actually weighing it and only water it when it is close to that first weight before the first watering. Ideally this has you watering once every 2-3 days at first and then more frequently as the plant grows it's roots and can drink more water. When the plant gets to the point of drinking all available water in a day or less that's when it is beginning to be root bound and in need of transplanting to a larger pot.

As for the soil mix I've never worked with a light mix aka starter mix. Most plants can handle an all purpose mix or all mix but then they usually can go several weeks without needing any added fertilizer since the fertilizer is already present in the soil. Since light mixes have less fertilizer in them to start they're less likely to be too much for a new potentially sensitive plant but they will likely need added fertilizer sooner then if you start with an all mix. I'm not sure if it's fair to say one is better then another since it kind of depends on how much attention and care you want to put into the plant. There are people who will create their own custom soil that contains everything the plant will ever need in the way of food and therefore all they ever give the plant is water. That is the best way to go for the least amount of day to day care but it really requires a pretty thorough knowledge of what the plant needs over it's entire life and how to best mix that into the soil. My personal opinion and the way I always did things was to start with a decent all purpose mix and then start adding fertilizer as the plant began showing signs of needing more food. I never had a strain that I grew that was so sensitive it required a light mix to start with but that doesn't mean that a light mix is never the appropriate way to go. Typically though they are just for the first few weeks of a plant's life and then you either need to change the soil or start using fertilizer eventually when the little that's in the soil to start gets used up.

 

[HempKat]

If you want to limit the height of the plants to 2 or 3 feet, you should try low stress training. It also increases uniformity of flowering.

This would be my advice as well, SOG might seem like a good method for a confined space but SCRoG aka Screen of Green is better because you can achieve a similar yield to SOG aka Sea of Green but using fewer plants by utilizing LST and a screen to have one or a few plants creating the same canopy as many plants crowded together. People that do SOG usually heavily cut back their plants to achieve what some call a Cola on a stick. By trimming away all the side growth, the many plants crowded together can usually get by with smaller pots then a plant allowed to grow normally without being trimmed back.

 

[Creeperpark]

Hello Everyone,

this is my first grow and I ran into all sorts of trouble, but am having a lot of fun. I first assumed the tacoing leaves meant that they were getting light burn and so increased the distance to my lamp, which now turned out to have made my plants become much higher than they should have been. (Quick one royal queen seeds says it should be 50-60cm but they are about 90cm in height now). The damage persisted. Here is the data I have:

Soil: BioBizz light mix
Nutes: Biobizz Max, Bloom and Grow as well as later on Calmag (thinking I have a Calcium deficiency)
pH down: Biobizz ph down
Pot size: 2 litres
Light: Sanlight q2w 50w
light schedule: 18/6
Strain: Quick One (Royal Queen Seeds)
Tent 40x40x140 (now moved em into a 40x80x160 to accommodate for height

The run off pH of one plant was way to low for some reason at around 4.5 with an E of 1.7 while the other two had good pH in runoff at 6.1 and 6.5 but one of them having a very high EC of 3.9. My guess is, that I fed nutrients too often (every waterin) while watering too often (in the beginning everyday, until I realized and only did it about every 2 days). What I do not understand is why the pH and EC differ so much, as I always fed them the same nutes and watered equally (not in amount, but until some water ran through the soil and came out on the bottom). After the flush I was able to raise the 4.5 pH to 6 and lower the 3.9 EC to 2. The damage persisted and new leaves now a week later are bright green while lower leaves straight up die and crisp up.

Is this Calcium deficiency brought upon me due to my imbalanced pH? My shitty milwaukee pH meter broke and I ordered a Bluelab one.

Good job using your meters and doing so much research. You are on the right track since you have an open mind and you will get dialed in quickly. Your problem only comes from using too much fertilizer. Many people are misled into thinking cannabis needs a lot of fertilizer. and it's simply not true.

I only use cal-mag when I use RO or Rain because it is used as a buffer, to keep the pH stable. IF you use tap water probably no need for cal-mag.

I only give my plants 0.3 EC or 169 ppm of a 3 part mix with every watering. I fortify the pure water with 90 ppms of cal-mag. I still have 4 weeks left and those buds are going to get fat.

 

[Creeperpark]

Here are some photos of a grow I'm doing now. I only give these plants 0.3 EC or 169 ppm of a 3 part mix GH floraseries with every watering. NO ADDITIVES! I fortify the pure water with 90 ppms of cal-mag. I still have 4 weeks left and those buds are going to get fat. You don't need a lot of fertilizer with pure water.

 

[Boio_]

@TanzanianMagic Thank you for the research and sharing. This makes me wonder whether the channel I have subscribed to might not be as knowledgeable as I thought, since there was no mention of the issues with getting root bound in 2 litre pots. Are there any strains that would strive in such a small pot? As I wrote in another post my plan is to have a perpetual harvest around every 5 weeks with a 40x40 tent and a 40x80 tent. With 8 litre pots that would limit me to 1 plant in the smaller tent and 2 plants in the bigger one. What do you think about that idea? I enjoy the thought of reducing plant numbers and going for scrog.

@HempKat I think I failed at the transition to Veg, thinking they would need a lot more water and simply overfed. I was kinda anxious for the plants, really felt emotionally invested. I ordered All Mix now and 4 litre pots to transplant but for the next grow it would be interesting to know your opinion on what TanzanianMagic said. Do you think I would be well advised to use 8 litre pots in the future and simply reduce plant number? In your second response you talked about trimming. I have played with that but am unsure whether I can get away with trimming them a lot as they are autoflowers with a very short lifespan compared to others.

@Creeperpark Thank you for pitching in. I do have an EC meter, but I haven't understood the PPM part yet, I will have to look into it. I definitely overdid it on the nutrients. I dont think it was the amount though, but rather the frequency (thus increasing the amount I suppose) as I used half the value the company indicated in their nutrient schedule. Your pics look like a dream, one day I'd like an extra room for growing Enjoy the puffs!

 

[HempKat]

@HempKat I think I failed at the transition to Veg, thinking they would need a lot more water and simply overfed. I was kinda anxious for the plants, really felt emotionally invested. I ordered All Mix now and 4 litre pots to transplant but for the next grow it would be interesting to know your opinion on what TanzanianMagic said. Do you think I would be well advised to use 8 litre pots in the future and simply reduce plant number? In your second response you talked about trimming. I have played with that but am unsure whether I can get away with trimming them a lot as they are autoflowers with a very short lifespan compared to others.
[/B]

In general I agree with TanzanianMagic on using bigger pots and fewer plants. By saying "in general" I'm talking more in the sense of non autoflowering plants. Since I've never grown any autoflowering strains I don't really feel qualified enough to tell anyone what they should do. I mean you make a fair point about the shortened life span and I'm not sure how much that would impact the idea of training fewer plants to fill up the same space as many plants in smaller pots. Now on the trimming all I was saying there is that people who do SoG style (Sea of Green) typically trim of all secondary growth to leave just the main cola. I wasn't suggesting you should do more trimming. Basically that's where I was agreeing with TanzanianMagic who was suggesting you should use larger pots to allow for more root development but fewer of the larger pots because of your space limitations and then also use LST (low stress training) to keep the plants low and fill out the canopy more to still get the same or greater yield as many plants in smaller pots.

If you don't know much about it look into SCRoG style (Screen of Green) and I think you'll understand the point me and TanzanianMagic are trying to make there.

Also I get what you're saying about why you overfed/overwatered, that's a common mistake of newer growers. They tend to think of plants in terms similar to animals or people where if you feed them more and more often they'll get fatter but that's not really how plants work. They are limited by their root system as to how much they can take in. So as long as the root system isn't very developed giving them more food doesn't translate into them eating more and getting bigger.. To get the best growth response from plants the way to go is to figure out what is just the right amount for them to consume all they are capable of between watering . It's one of those situations where the old saying of "less equals more" applies.

 

[Boio_]

I stopped feeding nutrients as often, but somehow I am unable to get my run off pH to 6.5, I've been getting 7.1 instead and I can't really explain that, as the water I flushed or fed with was controlled down to 6.5pH. Is this the stuck nutrients being carried out or something?

 

[Boio_]

HempKat In for report, Sir!

My hands are covered in nutrient rich water and soil. After work I went to work on them rootbound babies and repotted. Now I made several rookie mistakes. First, I did not prepare the color coding on my pots, so I won't be able to properly track the plants compared to before. The strains are the same so it isn't a big deal. However they were so rootbound in the fabric pots that it was tough to get them out and I must assume I damaged the roots. Another crucial mistake was that I did not mention that these were supposed to be due in 2-3 weeks. I expected longer since they were damaged, but could I have made it worse with the repot this late? Now for the Run Off pH. Two out of three plants are now at a tolerable pH in the run off at 6.6 pH, however one, I assume the one that was previously also this low, is still at 4.9 pH. This after repotting and having watered a few times with water controlled to 6.5 pH.

We will see how they develop. See attached a pictures of the roots. View attachment e54778b8-beef-4814-947a-c59dd322c586.jfif

 

[Devoted2rolling]

They look rootbound,
I suggest up-potting to 3.5L pots, soil BioBizz Allmix. You only need water for the rest of the grow.
Also increase airflow in mid flowering.

Cheers

Explain the mechanism. "Root bound" is some 19th century blood letting mumbo jumbo. It's like telling someone they have tight pants syndrome. Explain what's actually happejinf

 

[HempKat]

Explain the mechanism. "Root bound" is some 19th century blood letting mumbo jumbo. It's like telling someone they have tight pants syndrome. Explain what's actually happejinf

Root bound is pretty much exactly what the name suggests. The roots have grown so much there is little room for them to expand. Now several things happen when this occurs. The most noticeable thing is your plants start going thru water very rapidly such that you have to water daily or they will begin to wilt. Also the plant is still trying to grow but since the roots have no where to grow out the plant begins to sacrifice older lower growth so the existing roots can then feed new growth. This typically shows up as the lower leaves yellowing and dropping off at a fairly fast rate. Sometimes this causes new growers to think they have a nitrogen or other nutrient deficiency so they increase the amount of fertilizer and between the increased fertilizer and the rapid rate of water consumption this can create a ph imbalance and/or nutrient toxicity.

Now normally this is solved by transplanting to a bigger container that has more room for the roots to grow into. Once that room is available the plant should stop shedding any more lower growth and things will continue as normal and the rate of watering based on need should drop back from every day to once every other day or even once every third day depending on the size of the new container. Usually people try to avoid this in the flowering stage because they don't want to slow down flower development and when you transplant it's not uncommon for the plant to stall in growth for a few days. Plus if you're past the stretch phase (first 2-3 weeks of flower) the roots usually don't keep growing much after that. So what most growers do is they try to judge the container size so that by the time they are ready to switch to flower, the plant needs a new container, so they transplant while it's still in the veg cycle and then switch to the flower cycle.

Now in the case of this particular grow, if I remember correctly the plants were auto flowering which makes things a little harder to judge since the plant decides when to start flowering regardless of the light cycle. With traditional plants the flowering phase won't begin until you flip the lights to 12/12 (on/off). I personally have no experience with auto flowering plants so I can't say for sure if the root growth slows down or stops in the latter part of the flowering stage. If it doesn't then the grower did the right thing by transplanting. However being just 2-3 weeks from harvest maybe it would have been better to leave them as is and just keep watering regularly with plain water and focus on trying to get the ph levels back in range. Another option is he could have just transplanted them into a bigger container but without removing the cloth container he used at first and maybe poke some holes into the cloth container. If he did that it would be minimally disruptive to the plant and if the roots were still growing they would have found their way threw the holes and if they weren't the new soil would be like a reserve of moisture that the plant could wick thru the cloth container, either way should have had the effect of not requiring water daily. Just as a side note on the practice of transplanting to a newer pot many growers will do what is called scoring the root ball. This is where you take a knife (usually a utility knife) and cut about a half inch deep into the root ball on all four sides (North, South, East and West) this will almost definitely stall the plant's growth for a few days while it recovers but it helps the roots to spread out into the new soil more efficiently. Since he was as late as he was in flower though it was probably for the best that he didn't do that. Whatever damage was done to the roots from removing the cloth container was probably sufficient to help the roots spread out.

 

[HempKat]

I stopped feeding nutrients as often, but somehow I am unable to get my run off pH to 6.5, I've been getting 7.1 instead and I can't really explain that, as the water I flushed or fed with was controlled down to 6.5pH. Is this the stuck nutrients being carried out or something?

It could be but that doesn't make sense to me since the ph levels before were low on two of them so I would have expected the ones that were low to come up closer to but not over 6.5 and the one that was 6.5 to remain right around 6.5. I mean if you had to adjust the water down to 6.5 going in then that means the ph was higher before adjusting. So if you were getting those lower readings using higher ph water it would make more sense for the ph to go down when you lowered it to 6.5. Then again you only had one that was really low so that one was probably the worst off with having too much nutrients in the soil and I guess the other two cleared out the excess nutrients on the first watering with just plain water and so hopefully the other one will start to come up with the next watering?

 

[HempKat]

HempKat In for report, Sir!

My hands are covered in nutrient rich water and soil. After work I went to work on them rootbound babies and repotted. Now I made several rookie mistakes. First, I did not prepare the color coding on my pots, so I won't be able to properly track the plants compared to before. The strains are the same so it isn't a big deal. However they were so rootbound in the fabric pots that it was tough to get them out and I must assume I damaged the roots. Another crucial mistake was that I did not mention that these were supposed to be due in 2-3 weeks. I expected longer since they were damaged, but could I have made it worse with the repot this late? Now for the Run Off pH. Two out of three plants are now at a tolerable pH in the run off at 6.6 pH, however one, I assume the one that was previously also this low, is still at 4.9 pH. This after repotting and having watered a few times with water controlled to 6.5 pH.

We will see how they develop. See attached a pictures of the roots.

Well with only three plants not color coding them for easy identification was probably not that big a deal, as long as you've been tending them I'm betting you could figure out which was which if you tried. I've actually seen plants much more worse root bound then that so the damage you caused removing the cloth probably wasn't as bad as you think. judging by the one picture showing above the root ball looks pretty well intact and so if you damaged anything it was just the ends and the plants should recover fairly quickly from that. Now I would agree it was a crucial mistake not mentioning they were 2-3 weeks from finishing had I been aware of that I probably would have suggested you leave them in the cloth and just put the whole plant cloth and all into a slightly larger pot because typically the last two to three weeks growers stop giving nutrients anyway so that when the buds are harvested they're not full of unused nutrients. When you just give water the last couple of weeks the plant tends to pull any nutrients it still needs out of the leaves. This will cause the leaves to change color and start to die off but it usually results in the buds being less harsh after they're dried and cured giving you a smoother and cleaner burn bud. All in all though it sounds like transplanting isn't going to do much if any harm but since the new soil is all mix, which has nutrients in it just keep giving them plain water until they finish. AS for the ph well the two that are at 6.6 that seems fine at worst they'll have trouble getting manganese and iron but at this stage in their life I'm thinking that's not going to be a big problem. As for the one that is at 4.9 if that's the same one with the lowest ph from the three that's actually an improvement because you said before that it was at 3.9 So it's risen a whole point. That also suggests it was the worst off with too many nutrients which then suggests as you keep giving it just plain water it too will come up to a better level as those nutrients get washed out. If you want to speed up the process you might give it more water then usual so it has more runoff. This is what is usually called flushing and if there is still a build up of nutrients in there flushing should get it out. However just be careful when you water it next. If you give it more then the other two it might take a bit longer then the other two before it needs water again. You'll just have to make your own judgement call on that the next time you go to water. Ideally the plants should be only needing water every other day at the most instead of every day maybe once every three days depending on how much bigger the new pot is.

Now as you're watching them from here until harvest, don't expect those leaves that became discolored or damaged to turn healthy looking again. Once leaves get damaged they typically just keep dying off. Instead look for it to not develop much if any new damage. Although if you stick with the advice to just give plain water until harvest you may still seem more leaves discolor which is pretty normal for late stage flowering especially when you stop giving it additional nutrients. However since the new soil contains nutrients you may not see that happening much if at all.

Now keep in mind as I've said I have no experience with auto flowering plants. Everything I've been telling you is based on my experience growing more traditional cannabis plants. In theory most things should still apply but there may be some subtle differences with auto flowering plants that could throw my advice off a bit. Since you feel you're just 2-3 weeks from harvest though it probably won't matter much that they were auto flowering normally though I would not suggest someone transplant that far into flowering. Now that they're transplanted if you don't mind I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of the whole plants, buds and all after a few days to get a feel for how they're doing now. It's up to you though, you don't have to if you don't want to.

Speaking of auto flowering if your plan is to keep growing autos in a confined space maybe it would be best to just start with the smaller cloth pots at first then when you first see them start to flower maybe up pot them to something just a little bigger rather then trying to mess around with 8 litre pots? If you can eventually grow in a bigger space and switch to more conventional plants I would encourage that. Ruderalis, which is where the auto flowering trait comes from usually tends to not be that potent even with other genetics like sativa or indica mixed in. So you might find yourself not all that thrilled with the result given the amount of effort it requires? Then again there is something about growing your own weed that tends to make up for it not being the most potent weed ever.