is there a dif between stress induces herms and genetic herms?

[englishrick]

hay hempy,,,,,,its nice to get some quiet time to chat to you about this,,,,

do you agree?,,,,,,,,all cannabis has developed sex specific chromozones!!???

so the word hemaphrodite could well be redundant???

 

[englishrick]

i thought this was an qmazing set of quotes,,,,,i thought some of you guys might like to see them beffore i save it on my computer

Cannabis does not have hermaphrodite plants - King Ralph did that to me once Raco - That is an oddity on a monoecious individual from within a subdioecious population

(Photo by KingRalph)

Thx bro
I have to admitt that you´ve changed my mind...and can´t thank you enough for that

 

[hopleaf]

man i never thought this thread would get so deep into this subject. so it's wrong to call a plant a hermie. this sounds like something that most growers need to know.

 

[englishrick]

yeh,,,thats the point,,,,,you got it bro

its better to call them intersexed traits, since all cannabis has developed sex-specific chromozones,,,,

all cannabis has evolved into a diotious or trioecous [sub diotious] species,,,,,,,,hemaphrodites are present at an earlyer stage of eveoloution beffore the development of sex specific chromozones,,,

when we find i mono specimine in a sub diotious seedline noobies often call them hemaphrodite,,,,,i have been guilty of it in the past but im sticking to my guns from now on an im makin the word redundant,,,,[unless anyone has any reason why not]?

 

[BrianBadonde]

yeh,,,thats the point,,,,,you got it bro

its better to call them intersexed traits, since all cannabis has developed sex-specific chromozones,,,,

all cannabis has evolved into a diotious or trioecous [sub diotious] species,,,,,,,,hemaphrodites are present at an earlyer stage of eveoloution beffore the development of sex specific chromozones,,,

when we find i mono specimine in a sub diotious seedline noobies often call them hemaphrodite,,,,,i have been guilty of it in the past but im sticking to my guns from now on an im makin the word redundant,,,,[unless anyone has any reason why not]?

Rick dioecy can both evolve from a herm and to a herm it works both ways.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6ef95b55faa017cba7781ab8427&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

 

[englishrick]

yes,,,i agree,,,,,but to my knolage no cannabis has ever been confirmed to be hemaphrodite

no B?

thanks for comin here,,im not gona be gotng back to that other thread,,,i cant help any1 now its got so long and hard to read

 

[englishrick]

have all of mcpartlands biotypes been checked ??

 

[englishrick]

WOW,,,,this was fukin incredible,,,,thankyou thankyou for this,,,,im saving it all on my computer,,,,absoloutly priceless

thanks again Brian

As diploids of this species as well as all other Mercurialis species are dioecious. Additionally, males produce many times more pollen than hermaphrodites. Dorken et al. made use of the relative ease of cultivation of M. annua to establish two sets of experimental populations: one containing 50% males and the other lacking males entirely. Moreover, the annual nature of the species allowed them to see any effect of selection over a short time. After only three years they found that the populations lacking males had responded to natural selection in the predicted direction, by increasing their allocation to male function by 10% compared to the populations with males present.

This new experimental evidence, together with that of previous studies, makes a compelling case that the evolution to and from dioecy occurs as suggested by this theory[figure1]

This theory is not unique to plants but should apply equally well to animals. It would be interesting to see a similar demonstration of a change in sex allocation in response to the presence or absence of unisexuals in an animal. One possible choice is Eulimnadia texana, an androdioecious clam shrimp that has been extensively studied and which exhibits characteristics such as variation in population density, outcrossing by hermaphrodites, and inbreeding depression that would make it a interesting system for addressing this question.



To understand hermaphrodite sex allocation, it is necessary to know whether another sex morph exists in the population and at what frequency.

If hermaphrodites are surrounded only by other hermaphrodites, they should, on average, allocate equal resources to male and female function because they acquire equal fitness via the two. But what should they do if females also exist in the population
(a breeding system termed gynodioecy)?

Theoretically, hermaphrodites should shift their allocation toward male function to compete with other hermaphrodites for access to the ovules of females. If resources were limited, they would consequently decrease allocation to female function. Similarly, if hermaphrodites co-exist with males (androdioecy), they should shift to become more female. For reasons related to how sex is inherited, the much more common system is the
coexistence of hermaphrodites and females (gynodioecy), although the latter (androdioecy) does occur

A species can go all the way to dioecy via the gynodioecy pathway as females
increase in frequency to 50% of the population and the hermaphrodites
shift their reproductive allocation entirely to male function

this transition appears to have occurred relatively often within angiosperm
lineages


If a population is dioecious, there are conditions under which either the females or males may be selected to become hermaphroditic, again establishing a population containing hermaphrodites and unisexuals. For example, if a species is constantly colonizing newly disturbed sites, the frequency of males may be highly variable. Under the condition of few males, any female that is able to produce a few pollen grains (i.e.,a female turned hermaphrodite) could have an advantage in that they might be able to fertilize their own ovules as well as those of other plants whose fertilization percentage is low because of the lack of sufficient pollen in the population. Evolution away from dioecy has been shown in some species to take this pathway, wherein males, which produce copious quantities of pollen, coexist with hermaphrodites that were formerly female, and which produce relatively little pollen.

If males are lost altogether via stochastic processes, this should cause the hermaphrodites to shift even more resources to male function and away from female function.

This shift in the sex allocation of the hermaphrodites in pathways to or
from dioecy requires the same criteria that are needed for natural selection

to work on any trait: there must be variation in the trait, this variation must be heritable, and the trait must affect fitness. If these criteria are met, then selection on a trait will lead to an evolutionary response. Hence, for hermaphrodite sex allocation to evolve as predicted by theory, there must be genetic variation in sex allocation among individuals within a population and selection should act in a frequency-dependent manner, favoring individuals whose sex allocation differs from the mean depending on how the frequency of the co-existing unisexual morph changes. Moreover, a trade-off between the sex functions should exist, such that an increase in one causes a decrease in the other.


Until now, a few studies had tested one or more of these criteria, but none had gone so far as to verify an evolutionary response to natural selection. For example, early on it
was shown that hermaphrodites of Hebe subalpina, a long-lived, gynodioecious shrub from New Zealand, varied genetically in their allocation to female function, and
a trade-off between male and female function existed. Similar findings were shown for the gynodioecious strawberry Fragaria virginiana; moreover, experimental manipulation of the frequency of hermaphroditeand female strawberries showed that hermaphrodites experienced stronger selection to increase allocation to female function when females were rare as compared to when females were abundant

 

[Xtensity]

yes,,,i agree,,,,,but to my knolage no cannabis has ever been confirmed to be hemaphrodite

no B?

thanks for comin here,,im not gona be gotng back to that other thread,,,i cant help any1 now its got so long and hard to read

If you take seeds from a hermaphrodite cannabis plant, then those seeds will be hermies. If you continue to breed them, they will simply be the same exact strain with no varying gender.

Though Cannabis Gender Selection is very complex unlike most plants and animals.

 

[HempAlchemist]

yeh,,,thats the point,,,,,you got it bro

its better to call them intersexed traits, since all cannabis has developed sex-specific chromozones,,,,

all cannabis has evolved into a diotious or trioecous [sub diotious] species,,,,,,,,hemaphrodites are present at an earlyer stage of eveoloution beffore the development of sex specific chromozones,,,

when we find i mono specimine in a sub diotious seedline noobies often call them hemaphrodite,,,,,i have been guilty of it in the past but im sticking to my guns from now on an im makin the word redundant,,,,[unless anyone has any reason why not]?

This is correct, the term "hemaphrodite" as far as cannabis, is incorrect. what we call a hemaphrodite, in botany terms is called a "perfect flower". Let me explain,



In this lily flower we see both the male parts and the female parts within this one flower. This is a "perfect flower", it is fully capable of reproducing by itself; This is a true hemaphrodite. Cannabis create "imperfect flowers", because the males are on there own flowers as well as the females. So for cannabis it still takes two different flowers (male and female) to reproduce. This is the key difference between the two terms. But because most people that grow cannabis dont read botany book, or any other scientific resources, these false terms get coined and passed as the "truth"

 

[englishrick]

are you aware of the Mcparkland "cannabis biotypes",, or the species debate?,,,,,,,to my knolage none of Mcpartland`s biotypes are hemphrodite,,,,they have all developed sex chromozones

To the best of my knolage ALL cannabis biotypes have developed sex chromozones,,,,,

hemaphrodites are a almost a seperate species to diotious and subdiotious populations,,,hemphrodite dont have the sex specific chromozones!!,,,this is what makes hemphrodite so different from diotious and subdiotious populations they have developed sex specific chromozones

the picture i posted early dipicts the difference between hemphrodite diotious and subdiotious populations

 

[englishrick]

what experence do you have in botany bro,,,

ive been waiting to see the word "perfect flowes" to be used

This is correct, the term "hemaphrodite" as far as cannabis, is incorrect. what we call a hemaphrodite, in botany terms is called a "perfect flower". Let me explain,



In this lily flower we see both the male parts and the female parts within this one flower. This is a "perfect flower", it is fully capable of reproducing by itself; This is a true hemaphrodite. Cannabis create "imperfect flowers", because the males are on there own flowers as well as the females. So for cannabis it still takes two different flowers (male and female) to reproduce. This is the key difference between the two terms. But because most people that grow cannabis dont read botany book, or any other scientific resources, these false terms get coined and passed as the "truth"

 

[Xtensity]

are you aware of the Mcparkland "cannabis biotypes",, or the species debate?,,,,,,,to my knolage none of Mcpartland`s biotypes are hemphrodite,,,,they have all developed sex chromozones

To the best of my knolage ALL cannabis biotypes have developed sex chromozones,,,,,

hemaphrodites are a almost a seperate species to diotious and subdiotious populations,,,hemphrodite dont have the sex specific chromozones!!,,,this is what makes hemphrodite so different from diotious and subdiotious populations they have developed sex specific chromozones

the picture i posted early dipicts the difference between hemphrodite diotious and subdiotious populations

er? Did you just say hermaphrodites don't have specific sex chromosomes? Wait, then 2 sentences later you said they do have specific sex chromosomes? At least that's how it's read since you forgot the coma.

I'm going to assume english is not your first language because you spell knowledge as knolage, along with other spelling errors, then there's that odd thing you do with the comas. Regardless of that......


Please link this "Mcpartland" thing you keep referring to.

Also sorry if I misinterpreted you all wrong, I simply tried to understand what you said based on grammar you neglected to use.

Maybe you should read up on flower and plant sexuality before questioning someone elses validity on the subject. Or are you agreeing with him, it's near impossible to understand the way you style your sentences, I'm sorry.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sexuality#Terminology

Bisexual - or perfect flowers have both male (androecium) and female (gynoecium) reproductive structures, including stamens, carpels, and an ovary. Flowers that contain both androecium and gynoecium are called androgynous or hermaphroditic. Examples of plants with perfect or bisexual flowers include the lily, rose, and most plants with large showy flowers, though a perfect flower does not have to have petals or sepals. Other terms widely used are hermaphrodite, monoclinous, and synoecious. A complete flower is a perfect flower with petals and sepals.

http://tomclothier.hort.net/seedsav1.html

PERFECT

To a botanist, a perfect flower is a hermaphrodite. That is, a perfect flower contains both male and female structures. A lily flower is perfect. A rose is perfect. An apple flower is perfect. A tomato flower is perfect.

IMPERFECT

In contrast, imperfect flowers are incomplete. An imperfect flower is either male or female. The tassel on top of a maize plant is male (and imperfect). Maize silks are female (and imperfect). Squash flowers are imperfect. Begonia flowers are imperfect.

 

[englishrick]

er? Did you just say hermaphrodites don't have specific sex chromosomes? Wait, then 2 sentences later you said they do have specific sex chromosomes? At least that's how it's read since you forgot the coma.

I'm going to assume english is not your first language because you spell knowledge as knolage, along with other spelling errors, then there's that odd thing you do with the comas.


Maybe you should read up on flower and plant sexuality before questioning someone elses validity on the subject. Or are you agreeing with him, it's impossible to tell the way you style your sentences, I'm sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sexuality#Terminology


http://tomclothier.hort.net/seedsav1.html



Please link this "Mcpartland" thing you keep referring to.

Also sorry if I misinterpreted you all wrong, I simply tried to understand what you said based off grammar you neglected to use.

its cool bro,,,,,i did agree with our friend back there,,,

please let me make this clear

I BELIEVE HERMAPHRODITE PLANTS DO NOT HAVE SEX SEPECIFIC CHROMZONES,,,,,

with that being said,,,,will you please explain how i was in anyway incorect?,,,thankyou for any help



its in this book,,,,

The medicinal uses of cannabis and cannabinoids edited by Dr Geoffry Guy,,,,,,,,page 74 is a chappter called the "species debate",,,it explains Mcpartlands "biotypes",,,,and also Hillig`s[2004] cannabis bio types

Mc partland discribes 4 ,,,C.sativa ,,,C.indica,,,C.Ruderalis,,,,, and Cannabis afganica Vavilov 1926


*quotes from the book*
Hillig reconized 2 major genepools ,,ie, C.indica and sativa but he also Hillig explains about about "cryptic biotypes" within hemp,,,witch is actual a term applyed to cannabis cultivated for its fiber,,,,,

hillig basicly discribes 7 biotypes

*cannabis ruderalis
*cannabis sativa ssp.sativa
*cannabis sativa ssp.spontanea
*cannabis indica ssp.kafiristanica
*cannabis indica ssp. indica
*cannabis indica ssp afghanica
*cannabis indica ssp chinensis

 

[englishrick]

hemphrodite dont have the sex specific chromozones!!,,,this is what makes hemphrodite so different from diotious and subdiotious populations,,,, diotious and subdiotious populations have developed sex specific chromozones"

^^^^^^ive made the edit in bold......is this any better?

 

[BrianBadonde]

hemphrodite dont have the sex specific chromozones!!,,,this is what makes hemphrodite so different from diotious and subdiotious populations,,,, diotious and subdiotious populations have developed sex specific chromozones"

^^^^^^ive made the edit in bold......is this any better?

the crux of it is we are more or less inbetween Herm and full dioecy.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/127/4/1418.

Intersex plants are the monoecious plants in a dioecious population hence sub dioecious Like stated by others there are no herms.

The evolution of heteromorphic sex chromosome systems in widely differing species suggests that similar forces have been at work in every case. The outcome is the accumulation on the sex chromosomes of key genetic components (molecular switches) determining sexual dimorphism and, following a controlled arrest of recombination along most regions of X and Y, the concentration of sex-related genes on sex chromosomes, Y chromosome genetic isolation and erosion, X chromosome dosage compensation, etc. (Charlesworth, 1992 ; Ellis, 1998 ; Charlesworth and Guttman, 1999 ; Mitchell, 2000 ).
Taken together, the above can be summarized as follows: (a) Sex determination exhibits similarities (such as male heterogamety, extensive sexual dimorphism, and X chromosome dosage compensation) that have arisen by convergent evolution. Sex determination is probably the most typical case where evolution can produce a variety of solutions to the same basic problems in development (Hodgkin, 1992 ); and (b) Plants are key players in the study of the evolution of sex determination because they offer a unique opportunity in giving access to the very early stages of X and Y chromosome history.
Because this is a critical matter in developmental and evolutionary biology, we have chosen to illustrate this latter point by using sorrel and white campion as examples in the more general context of sex determination. Sorrel will be briefly introduced, whereas a more detailed analysis of white campion is envisaged in regard to the similarities of this plant and mammalian XY system (Westergaard, 1958 ; van Nigtevecht, 1966 ; Ciupercescu et al., 1990 ).

 

[englishrick]

i agree,,,,,,the paperwork you provided depicts a form of "domestication sindrome",,,,,,it makes total sence to me for canna to have a good form of gametheory to overcome any problems

game theory has been used to understand many different phenomena. It was first used to explain the evolution (and stability) of the approximate 1:1 sex ratios. (Fisher 1930) suggested that the 1:1 sex ratios are a result of evolutionary forces acting on individuals who could be seen as trying to maximize their number of grandchildren. biologists have used the game of chicken to analyze fighting behavior and territoriality. [citation needed]

Maynard Smith, in the preface to Evolution and the Theory of Games, said "paradoxically, it has turned out that game theory is more readily applied to biology than to the field of economic behaviour for which it was originally designed".

game theory explains this altruism with the idea of kin selection. Altruists discriminate between the individuals they help and favor relatives.. The more closely related two organisms are causes the incidences of altruism to increase because they share many of the same alleles. This means that the altruistic individual, by ensuring that the alleles of its close relative are passed on, (through survival of its offspring) can forgo the option of having offspring itself because the same number of alleles are passed on. Helping a sibling for example (in diploid animals), has a coefficient of ½, because (on average) an individual shares ½ of the alleles in its sibling's offspring. Ensuring that enough of a sibling’s offspring survive to adulthood precludes the necessity of the altruistic individual producing offspring. The coefficient values depend heavily on the scope of the playing field; for example if the choice of whom to favor includes all genetic living things, not just all relatives, we assume the discrepancy between all humans only accounts for approximately 1% of the diversity in the playing field, a co-efficient that was ½ in the smaller field becomes 0.995. Similarly if it is considered that information other than that of a genetic nature (e.g. epigenetics, religion, science, etc.) persisted through time the playing field becomes larger still, and the discrepancies smaller.

in you opinion,,,,,,,,are we closer to Herm or full dioecy?,,,,,what are the key breeding mistakes that could swing it ither way?

 

[englishrick]

Intersex plants are the monoecious plants in a dioecious population hence sub dioecious Like stated by others there are no herms.

so,,,just to clarifi,,,,when the next noob says the word hermi in relation to cannabis,,,,,,,,,,ie,,,"my plant is a hermi",,,,,,or,,,,,,"feminized seeds make hermi plant"

we gota hit the bullshit button!!!





[noob exeption],,,,"my plant just expresed traits similar to a hermi"

the correct term is "my plant is monoecious"??????

what are the most comon mistakes made by most people when faced with a monoecious specimine?,,,,,,are there any avantages to monoecious plants??,,,do they contain important information and therefore need to be reintrograted back into the population for a higher quality of presevation?

 

[3rdEye]

Very good topic. Thanks to the contributors. I'm learning some new stuff here.

 

[Xtensity]

I see what you're saying englishrick with the hermaphrodites having no specific sex chromosomes.

I think various plants who can allocate energy to their various sexual mechanisms goes deeper than a few chromosomes.

If female plants can allocate 10% of their sexual function to male pollen sacks then maybe their marking their DNA with information of this allocation and passing it on to offspring. Maybe they're not introducing new genes or altering chromosomes, maybe they're just recording the data(whatever it may be) on the DNA. So whatever stress made the females put 10% of sexual function into pollen sacks is passed on to offspring somehow.

I'm not sure really, the above is just a theory. Though I do think it's more than a few chromosomes which are responsible for 'genetic' hermies, if you call them that.

If the above theory is true, then the chromosomes will still either be male or female. There could be a plant with female chromosomes, but it reads the data on the DNA to allocate 10% to male sexual function... Though I don't know how this concept fits into the production of feminized seeds.

Mysteries like these are the reason I want to study this plant in the future with professional lab equipment .