Is Critical Mass just a pheno of Big Bud?

[Shmavis]

What are some other renamed strains? Also, the bubba Kush I see these days, whether it's pre 98 or another, is not the bubba we had circa 01' in Humboldt. That bubba regularly produced half as much as anything else no matter who grew it or where. Today's bubba is a lot chunkier, not as flavorful, and red haired. Looking like a beastly version maybe with Afghan influence. I never grew more than a few bubba's at a time for headstash because of the production issue. I'm sure someone has the og bubba and I'd love to see her again!

This is my first Bubba Kush grow. So I don’t know what’s what, but I know this one isn’t going to yield much; whereas one her sisters will probably triple her yield.

#2 at day 55:

Thoughts?

 

[SilentFeet]

A bit of defoliation would have been in order.

I think that strain would be better crossed with something else, like Skunk or Black Widow.

Give it a bit of yield and vigour.

But as to Critical Mass and Big Bud; I grew Sensi's Big Bud a long time ago, and got just one female, the seeds were immature and just about all didn't germinate.
But anyway the female was trifoliate (is that what you call it when you get three branches per node instead of two?)
So I thought this is part of the reason for it's high yields.

I currently have Critical Mass in veg, and none of them are trifoliate.
You can see the Afghani in them actually. Big serrations on the leaves.
The leaves are not as wide as an Afghani's though.

Would post a pic but just have a cell phone camera, and I don't want to use that as even if you delete the photo's, LE can still recover them from you hard drive.
And if you have dated photo's of grows going back several years then they might charge you with growing all those plants.

 

[GoatCheese]

GC,
I'm aware of Nevil's posts and perhaps stating Critical Mass doesn't contain Big Bud genetics appears factually incorrect; I apologize.

(link pulled)

Notice Mr. Nice's description simultaneously states it's pedigree is Afghani x Skunk #1 & that the breed originated from Nevil? Considering Nevil's posts, there appears to be some inconsistencies. I propose a couple of theories:
A) Originally, Critical Mass was derived from Big Bud genetics (via Nevil) but over time has been reworked and maintained by Mr. Nice Seeds as Afghani x Skunk#1
B)The "Afghani" used by Shanti is a generalized description for a Big Bud related line he obtained via Nevil.
C)Both of these dudes are full of crap and any attempts to sort out their fishing stories shouldn't be undertaken so seriously.

Any combination of the above theories are plausible.

They way i see it and how it seems to me, Nevil has been quite open about what plants he used in his hybrids. In the old seed catalogs he mentions most of the plants used and it's the same if you read posts he wrote on MrNice forums around 2010-2011.
..he may have his past with some other seed makers/breeders, but that is another topic.


If you go to MrNice's site and look thru their strain-menu; Shanti is, imo, also quite open about the genetics. If the strain was a joint effort with Nevil from his old stock, it is usually mentioned there.



Even if it says Critical Mass is Afg x Skunk it doesn't mean CM seeds are F1 stock, and they aren't cause they were grown out of seeds made by Nevil.. CM is F2 or some higher F-generation, but it can't be a F1.

Thou Shanti usually/always lists the genetics they used in particular hybrid, he doesn't always tell you the true make-up of a strain. If you look at what he tells about his Mango Haze, on his site it says it's " 25% NL5, 25% Skunk and 50% Haze"
..but Shanti doesn't tell us that the mom was a NL5Haze and so the male was a SkunkHaze.

MangoHz has the same make-up was Jack Herrer and SuperSilver Haze, it's just different selection; the mom was a NL5Haze and the male a SKHaze.

If some of you guys aren't able trust what Nevil and Shanti say about their stock, then i prolly can't help you cause i haven't been present when they grew their plants.


Peace

 

[Aota1]

This is my first Bubba Kush grow. So I don’t know what’s what, but I know this one isn’t going to yield much; whereas one her sisters will probably triple her yield.

#2 at day 55:

View Image View Image


Thoughts?

It looks a little bit closer than the rest

 

[Shmavis]

It looks a little bit closer than the rest

Specifically speaking? Shortcomings are? (Evasiveness lends little).

I mean, you’re from Humboldt; I’m from the dirty Mitten, with no prior experience... just wondering if I’m clear to say, “yeah, it’s really Bubba”... know what I’m sayin’?

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Yea, i've read one rumor that said "Shanti has lost most of his original parents and everything is now crossed to White Widow"..
..come on.
Maybe you guys see lies and conspiracies every where?? ...which is quite rich coming from 9/11 truther.
But fuk it ...smoke on!

No, Shanti and Nevil started all this "all our rivals have lost their mothers" line, and sat back quietly while all their fanboys ran around the internet shouting about this trying to ruin rival's business and boost their own. Over 10 years ago it was really clear just how dishonest those two were and how they were trying cheap huckster tricks to boost themselves. I immediately smelt their bullshit, so watched them closely, never believing their lies or absurd self promotion. Remember Nevil saying that selecting was an "art" and that he was the "Stradivarius".

In life, if someone tells such blatant half assed lies, or has such an absurdly giddy ego, there is always a reason...

Now, the few people who actually grow MNS strains keep on reporting hermies and wild ranging phenos, lots of bunk tropical sativa plants, 14 week "white widows"... it is very clear who did actually loose their mothers, it was them.

The "everything is crossed to White Widow" story is true, for other sseedbanks, it is not and has never been MNS game, for all their sins... they don't make fems remember ??? So, they don't use a WW "male" (reversed). I have never seen that mixed up made, do you have a link where anybody is actually saying that ?

The White Widow "thing" is this... many*, Spanish Seeedbanks use a White Widow reversed male to father their fem lines because it is fast, yieldy and robust.. so "Dinafem OG" (etc) is OG x WW not OG x OG.


*Good Spanish seedbanks who certainly are NOT using WW, Cannabiogen, ACE, Delicatessan, Mandala and AFAIK, Sweet

Yes, Delicatessan and Mandala are not run by Spaniards, but they are based here, so I included them to avoid misunderstandings

 

[OakyJoe]

The White Widow "thing" is this... many*, Spanish Seeedbanks use a White Widow reversed male to father their fem lines because it is fast, yieldy and robust.. so "Dinafem OG" (etc) is OG x WW not OG x OG.


*Good Spanish seedbanks who certainly are NOT using WW, Cannabiogen, ACE, Delicatessan, Mandala and AFAIK, Sweet

i underline that!

 

[GoatCheese]

I have no problem with someone dissing Nevil or MNS, as long as they don't make stuff up about the plants.

What i'm only interested is genetics and some grow/selection tips. What things they did or said doesn't interest me. I don't have favorite breeders/chuckers, i have favorite weed. ..i'm sure you understand what i mean. Old classics, traditional ganja/ hash-lines and landraces are what interest me the most.





I'm not a MNS fanboy . Have grown some G13Skunk and some Medicine Man and i have few others waiting their turn. Wasn't too impressed with those two, but they still were just about how they were marketed.

And yea, i have also seen some weird looking plants from Shanti . I think they were skunk-hybrids the weird ones i remember seeing, but i don't much follow what MNS is doing.
His hazes, aren't hazes known for hay-phenos? But maybe better selection would have taken care of that. Was Nevil's Hazes also half-shit, i dunno. Wasn't growing around the time, not much smoking either. The only Haze i got from MNS is MAngo Haze and i haven't grown any yet, so can't say much about that one yet.

But now, that i typed that down i remembered
..i wasn't too impressed with Shanti when after the seed release it was told his G13WW actually has Skunk in it and that G13SK was also crossed with a pure skunk. See, now i'm bitchin too and for a good reason.

Laters, brother Chaos
...keep on keepin the fuggers honest, amigo!!!

 

[Raco]

Nevil´s Big Skunk = Big Bud x Skunk1 IIRC

 

[Aota1]

Specifically speaking? Shortcomings are? (Evasiveness lends little).

I mean, you’re from Humboldt; I’m from the dirty Mitten, with no prior experience... just wondering if I’m clear to say, “yeah, it’s really Bubba”... know what I’m sayin’?

It's difficult from a picture alone to tell. Yours definitely has a small stature but without the nose it's hard. That aroma and flavor were unmatched. I'm sure you have a version of bubba - after you harvest and compare, it will be easier to know

 

[Shmavis]

It's difficult from a picture alone to tell. Yours definitely has a small stature but without the nose it's hard. That aroma and flavor were unmatched. I'm sure you have a version of bubba - after you harvest and compare, it will be easier to know

Well I was gonna leave you a note on your rep saying thanks and vote your post up, but I got this nonsense going on: "You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

Thanks Aota1!

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

I have no problem with someone dissing Nevil or MNS, as long as they don't make stuff up about the plants.

What i'm only interested is genetics and some grow/selection tips. What things they did or said doesn't interest me. I don't have favorite breeders/chuckers, i have favorite weed. ..i'm sure you understand what i mean. Old classics, traditional ganja/ hash-lines and landraces are what interest me the most.





I'm not a MNS fanboy . Have grown some G13Skunk and some Medicine Man and i have few others waiting their turn. Wasn't too impressed with those two, but they still were just about how they were marketed.

And yea, i have also seen some weird looking plants from Shanti . I think they were skunk-hybrids the weird ones i remember seeing, but i don't much follow what MNS is doing.
His hazes, aren't hazes known for hay-phenos? But maybe better selection would have taken care of that. Was Nevil's Hazes also half-shit, i dunno. Wasn't growing around the time, not much smoking either. The only Haze i got from MNS is MAngo Haze and i haven't grown any yet, so can't say much about that one yet.

But now, that i typed that down i remembered
..i wasn't too impressed with Shanti when after the seed release it was told his G13WW actually has Skunk in it and that G13SK was also crossed with a pure skunk. See, now i'm bitchin too and for a good reason.

Laters, brother Chaos
...keep on keepin the fuggers honest, amigo!!!

I totally agree with you GoatCheese, I have no friends or allegiances when it comes to the critical mission of getting the best genetics, I would happily run Osama's Tora Bora or Trump OG, if it is the best of type...

The "Hay phenos in Haze" are AFAIK a thing of Tom Hill's Haze, not of any "original" line we find elsewhere. So few people actually grew it that it is hard to get much info.. I don't recall the Old Timers Haze that ACE use, or Flying Dutchman being reported as doing this, but I may be wrong. Toms line is a lot quicker and yields way better than the classic/original, but has lost nothing in the high, he was always very clear about the Hay phenos, and honesty among breeders is rarer than sport phenos

Epic THH Outdoor, late planted

 

[Morphote]

Thou Shanti usually/always lists the genetics they used in particular hybrid, he doesn't always tell you the true make-up of a strain. If you look at what he tells about his Mango Haze, on his site it says it's " 25% NL5, 25% Skunk and 50% Haze"
..but Shanti doesn't tell us that the mom was a NL5Haze and so the male was a SkunkHaze.

Not true. It's common knowledge at MNS that the mother of Mango Haze is NL5/Haze122:

Most of the work I did was with batches of 40-50 seeds at a time.
The variety I grew the most of was NL5xHzC. No.1 came out in the first batch of about 20 females. Over the years I've grown many 1000s. In most respects, it was still the best. No.122, the one Shanti dubbed the Mango, came after years of searching, a tireless quest on my part. Aspiring growers often came to me and I regularly made them start with 5Hz seed. There are a few cuts around from those exploits, but they weren't as good as 1 and 122. But almost. As I said before, there's not a sea of difference between the best out of 50 and the best out of 1000. But there is a difference for the most discerning.
N.

This is why MH and SSH are called "sisters". Same Sk/Hz father, different 5Hz mothers.

M.

 

[GoatCheese]

Not true. It's common knowledge at MNS that the mother of Mango Haze is NL5/Haze122:



M.

Yea... That is NL5 X Haze ..a female number 122, picked By Shantibaba. It's a sister of the mom of SSH, iirc.

..isnt that what i wrote in the first Place???!

 

[Mustafunk]

Not true. It's common knowledge at MNS that the mother of Mango Haze is NL5/Haze122:

This is why MH and SSH are called "sisters". Same Sk/Hz father, different 5Hz mothers.

M.

Jack Herer is another "sister" there... but I think the mother was the same as in the SSH.

What I'm wondering now is if this mango NL5/HzC #122 has any relation to the A5 Haze and C5 Haze, or it's simply another and third different keeper Nevil selected from those original NL5/HzC F1 batches.

 

[GoatCheese]

Jack Herer is another "sister" there... but I think the mother was the same as in the SSH.

What I'm wondering now is if this mango NL5/HzC #122 has any relation to the A5 Haze and C5 Haze, or it's simply another and third different keeper Nevil selected from those original NL5/HzC F1 batches.

Yea, i've read Nevil saying that Sensi's cup winning Jack Herer was just renamed Nevil's SSH mom.
I understand that A5Haze was NL5 X HazeA-male, while C5Haze was done with HazeC-male.
Is the C5-clone same as Nevil's No 1. NL5HzC mom, i don't know, but what he says/implies in the quote below is that some other NL5Hz cuts were floating around.

Most of the work I did was with batches of 40-50 seeds at a time.
The variety I grew the most of was NL5xHzC. No.1 came out in the first batch of about 20 females. Over the years I've grown many 1000s. In most respects, it was still the best. No.122, the one Shanti dubbed the Mango, came after years of searching, a tireless quest on my part. Aspiring growers often came to me and I regularly made them start with 5Hz seed. There are a few cuts around from those exploits, but they weren't as good as 1 and 122. But almost. As I said before, there's not a sea of difference between the best out of 50 and the best out of 1000. But there is a difference for the most discerning.
N.

Link to this post:
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/80502-post142.html

 

[GoatCheese]

Hey..
maybe abit off topic, but i made a nice find about the lineages of MrNice/Nevil's Haze hybrids
..and in the same 2007-post Shantibaba tells alittle how he's keeping his moms and dads

Shantibaba]
Hi All

just to clear the air from confusion and before you all go making a legend from myth here is how it was done and is done still....

Nh is made from Haze C male which is made by two pure haze parents from 1969....then the female side of NH is made from Haze A combined to NL5 or NL5Haze A where Haze A was also made by two pure Haze parents also from 1969

Haze A is no longer alive only Haze C male is along with several other different sativa lines.

but plants with the lineage of Haze A are still alive and carrying the genes within.

SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC

the Mango comes from a parallel cross same as SSH but with one difference

Haze A male combined to Sk 1 or Sk HzA being the male plant, the female is NL5HzC....that is the breeding of those three plants

considering the Haze A is no longer a male alive, it still is alive in the ancestry of some of the plants used in all these breeds

I do not have secrets about breeding but given the same seed batches we could all still create something different...it boils down to selection.

La Nina is the widow father breed to a pure Haze female...neither A or C by the way so I hope that clears up all your doubts once and for all.

There is no one other than Simon at serious seeds who follows breeding plants like we do.Most Dutch seed companies use females plants obtained from seed batches that were passed on to them or sent to them, making their origins a little doubtful at certain stages. The whole seed industry based alot of things on Neville's origins in fact , but none except Sensi Seed had the parent plants to replicate things time and time again. Whether plants dies or were lost to disease over the years...well most companies would probably not tell anyone, but think about it.How many back ups of parent plants would you need in how many countries to be sure never to loose an important line? As enforcement on growers gets more and more restricting rooms get found etc....and the law of averages catches up on you. My last problem with the Swiss authorities I lost all plants in my library...some 42 mum's and dad's...luckily we keep backup of all the most important plants in 5 different countries and have done for years...if we had not had done this then we too would have lost alot of heirlooms. I do keep original batches of seed from years ago also in several places just in case I have to go all the way back to the drawing board to do selection again...but that is as bad as it gets for us.

As you can see it is alot of work in alot of places to just keep things alive...not to mention the expenses and time factor involved.

Lastly just to clarify things to do with this site...well I do all the moderating alone plus the pms and all questions and answers....so if there is something wrong on this site it is me who made it. I have a webman to do the technical aspects but all content and daily admin of the site is up to me. Howard will be helping in a limited way one day but he is a busier person than anyone else I know. Nev is not one for public life or cyberspace...and due to family committments is happy to do some work on plants but nothing else.So I am afraid you are all dealing with Shantibaba...whether you like it or not.

All the best now off to Bologna for a 3 day fair....take care
__________________
ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ-ψ

"Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner." -Lao Tzu

all the best,
Shantibaba

Here's the link..
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/2064-post27.html

 

[Elmer Bud]

Not true. It's common knowledge at MNS that the mother of Mango Haze is NL5/Haze122:



This is why MH and SSH are called "sisters". Same Sk/Hz father, different 5Hz mothers.

M.

G `day Morphy

^^ Wrong !
SSH is NL#5 / HzC x Sk / Hz C .
Mango Haze is Nl #5 / Hz C x SK / Haze A

Different mothers and fathers . But then Shanti said he also has a mango male he calls #122 . That he found in NL / Haze / SK .

Talks in circles when quizzed about lineages ...

The original testers he sent out . [what Hempy grew] He described as NL#5 / Hz C x SK / Hz C .

Then changed the story when probed re lineage a cpl of years later to NL #5 / HzC X NL#5 /SK / Hz A
Though he never let on the plant that Hempy was hyping was not what he was selling .

Then there is El Nino / La Nina .
A pure Haze x White Widow . lol . Ozzie sativa x White Widow . Since when are Ozzie bred Sats Hazes ???

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Morphote]

G `day Morphy

^^ Wrong !
SSH is NL#5 / HzC x Sk / Hz C .
Mango Haze is Nl #5 / Hz C x SK / Haze A

Different mothers and fathers . But then Shanti said he also has a mango male he calls #122 . That he found in NL / Haze / SK .

Talks in circles when quizzed about lineages ...

The original testers he sent out . [what Hempy grew] He described as NL#5 / Hz C x SK / Hz C .

Then changed the story when probed re lineage a cpl of years later to NL #5 / HzC X NL#5 / Hz A
Though he never let on the plant that Hempy was hyping was not what he was selling .

Then there is El Nino / La Nina .
A pure Haze x White Widow . lol . Ozzie sativa x White Widow . Since when are Ozzie bred Sats Hazes ???

Thanks for sharin

EB .

Sorry wasn't paying attention to male side. You mean SK / Haze A, yes?

M.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G `day Morphy

Yes Sk /HzA .

I have grown a few C mass . Prone to herming in hot rooms . Good yields but take 70 + days .

re Shanti`s beanz . I like his lines .
Are they what they say on the can ? No .
Does he offer good customer service ? yes .
Are there a helluva lot of fan boys at his site ? Hell yeah !

Thanks for sharin

EB .