Iraq Study Group: Change Iraq strategy now

[Rosy Cheeks]

Indeed I did conveniently neglect to mention the powerful Liberia Lobby, didn't I? And I didn't say anything about those Liberians involved in the planning for war with Afghanistan and Iraq, nor the fact that Liberia has nukes and isn't complying with the non-proliferation treaty.

Your other historical equivalents are similarly ridiculous.

Bravo Muddy, you managed to discard my arguments based on historical facts as ridiculous without even explaining why, or even presenting any convincing counter-arguments. What has lobbying got to do with anything, or Afghanistan and Iraq? Is it the fact that Jews support eachother internationally, and that Israel has a foreign policy that serves its national interests that makes it a whole lot different from Liberia?

I remind you of your own words:

"But there is also as far as I see no historical equivalent to the state of Israel."

I showed you that there is. Take it or leave it.

Look, I'm against anti-Semitism, I'm against all racially motivated prejudice of any kind, and I realize the Jewish people were murdered en masse in Europe and in Russia and maybe all the way back in Babylon but I'd need better sources.

Personally, I don't care what you're for or against. You can be for the Palestinian cause or against, for the Israeli cause or against, it is your right to have a personal opinion on things and I respect that. Although, what I do not respect is ignorance and pre-conceived ideas based on lack of knowledge. I also expect someone that wishes to be taken seriously to seriously study what they're talking about, in order to show others that they know what they're talking about. If you haven't done your homework, you won't pass.

It is historical fact that the early leaders of Israel were actively expelling through various means including violence the original inhabitants, yet Israel apologists cling to this myth that the original Palestinians simply left by choice.

In that case Muddy, all you have to do is to present to me undisputable facts of this proclaimed Zionist conspiracy. I'm sure it won't be hard for you to dig up.

There where no ethnical, political or religious conflicts between the Muslim, Christian and Jewish populations in Palestine up until the 20th century.

The fact that an increasing number of Jews arrived and settled in Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th century didn't cause any whatsoever problems to the Palestinian population. Rather the contrary. The influx of Jews boosted the local economy, in the mercantile as well as the agricultural sector. Up until the 20th century, Palestine was chronically underdeveloped as an Ottoman backwater province, and Palestinians were actually moving out of the province because of its poverty and desolation, until the Jewish communities redynamised it.

That is a historical fact.

British Mandate statistics shows that when the Jewish population started to grow in the early 20th century, so did the Palestinian population (between World War I and II, the Jewish population increased by 470 000, while the Palestinian population grew by 588 000, which kills the myth that the Jews were "taking over" demographically). Statistics also shows that the Palestinian Muslim population grew most in the areas where the Jews lived, like Haifa, Jaffa and Jerusalem, while the population growth in purely Arab towns like Nablus, Jenin and Bethlehem was considerably lower. The Palestinians were cashing in on the Jewish economic boom, and didn't mind living together with the Jews while it enriched them.

These statistics can be found and verified in Michael Curtis' anthology "The Palestinians" (Transaction books, 1975). Happy reading.

The obvious non-sequitor you are forced to ignore using this logic is that if they left by choice, they ought to have the right of return, which of course the real, factual Israel denies. There's also the question of the treatment of the Israeli Arabs as de facto second class citizens but that's small potatoes when you consider the occupied territories for what they are, land where people are denied even the most basic right of self-preservation. How much longer should that cruelty continue, Rosy, in your estimation?

Second class citizens or not (and I agree that they do not have the same status as Jewish Israelis) their situation is not worse that for instance many of the ethnic minorities living in the West, such as the Pakistani community in the UK, or the Algerian Muslims living in France, or the Mexicans in the US. Neither would I say that all Jews have the same status in Israel, there is a difference in how the Israeli society treats the Ashkenaz, the Ethiopian jews, or the Ultra-Orthodox community.

The ethnically and racially blind society is unfortunately utopic, it exists in very few places in this world.

The Israeli Arabs enjoy the same legal rights as any other Israeli citizen, they have their own political parties which are represented in the Knesset:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

How many Jewish political parties are there in Iran?

Finally Iran is not calling for destruction of Israel any more than Thomas Jefferson was calling for destruction of the United Kingdom. Iran wants the Zionist regime (1948-?) to cede to something maybe a little more just and legitimate. The ridiculous controversy about Ahmadinejad saying "DEATH TO THE JEWS!" or whatever you claim is a proven historical fallacy, not that you should stick to facts when defending your side as they contrive too much with the enemy, I know. What the Iranian President said was wiped off the page of history, according to non-Israeli Lobby-affiliated sources who actually know the Farsi language, and that phrase of course is a rather obvious statement against the current regime, not against the Jewish people.

I guess all the world's journalists reporting on Ahmadinejad's outrageous statments didn't have access to the same brilliant translator as you have.
Here's what Aljazeera, the biggest Arab news network claim Ahmadinejad said:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/archive/archive?ArchiveId=15816

Addressing about 4000 students gathered in an Interior Ministry conference hall, Ahmadinejad also called for Palestinian unity, resistance and a point "where the annihilation of the Zionist regime will come".

"The Islamic umma (community) will not allow its historic enemy to live in its heartland," he said in the fiery speech that centred on a "historic war between the oppressor and the world of Islam".

What does "will not allow its historic enemy to live in its heartland" mean?
Does it mean that the Zionist regime will be destroyed, or that no Jews are allowed to live in Palestine?
Oh, sorry, that must have been a misunderstanding, due to bad translation. What Ahmadinejad really wanted to say was "We love the Jews, as long as there aren't any in the Middle East.

Ethnic cleansing, anyone?

My final question to you is this: Seeing that a two-state solution isn't going to happen, recognizing the colossal failure to provide even adequate living conditions in the occupied territories, and the Israeli Offense Forces' official stance that targeting populations and bombing infrastructure is noble and dignified and not a war crime, when will you eventually give the Palestinians that didn't get off "your" land when you forced them to the right to live, like you and I enjoy?

What do you really mean with the Occupied territories? The West Bank or Gaza? May I remind you that in the territories that Israel concider theirs, Palestinians have a higher living standard than the Palestinians living for instance in Jordan, Lebanon or Syria?
In the territories controlled by the Palestinian Authorities, there is rampant poverty, desillusion, religious extremism and a cult of violent resistance against Israel, partially because of Israel, partly because of the Palestinians themselves.

I do not defend everything that the Israeli state does, but I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians can't obtain their Palestinian State through armed struggle. They've tried for 60 years, and for every year, the Israelis are getting stronger and the Palestinians are getting weaker.
So continuing up shit creek will only prolong their sufferings.

If you wish to continue this tiring, repetetive discussion, please do so in a thread suited for the topic. I'm done with Baker's peace plan, over and out.

 

[naga_sadu]

In the territories controlled by the Palestinian Authorities, there is rampant poverty, desillusion, religious extremism and a cult of violent resistance against Israel, partially because of Israel, partly because of the Palestinians themselves.

I do not defend everything that the Israeli state does, but I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians can't obtain their Palestinian State through armed struggle. They've tried for 60 years, and for every year, the Israelis are getting stronger and the Palestinians are getting weaker.
So continuing up shit creek will only prolong their sufferings.

I'm more interested in why the Israeli government simply can't setup a system similar to what the partisans did in Yugoslavia, after WWII, though the social & demographic dynamics in both the cases (Israel, Yugoslavia) were the same...? The only diff. between the two systems is that one chose a non corporate capitalist route and was thus free of opportunism whereas the other chose corporatism. And the past as well as present shows that opportunist run systems have more strife than a system free from opportunism. That's the solution in Israel, as far as I can see.

And speaking of Palestenians in Israel having a higher standard of living than the Syrians, Iraqis etc., in the 1950s, the Indians living under Portuguese occupied Goa had a higher "standard of living"- whatever that means- than the rest of the Indians in India. Yet, for some odd reason, the overwhelming majority of Indians in Goa favoured liberation from Portugal. And they finally got it in 1961. So, I'm pretty sure that there are lots more variables than some "standard of living" indicators that make people tick...

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

speaking of Palestenians in Israel having a higher standard of living than the Syrians, Iraqis etc., in the 1950s, the Indians living under Portuguese occupied Goa had a higher "standard of living"- whatever that means- than the rest of the Indians in India. Yet, for some odd reason, the overwhelming majority of Indians in Goa favoured liberation from Portugal. And they finally got it in 1961. So, I'm pretty sure that there are lots more variables than some "standard of living" indicators that make people tick...

I agree with you on that, although it's a matter of definition. Goa wasn't "occupied" by Portugal in the strict sense of the term, it was a Portugese colony from the 16th century up until the 1960's, when Goans chose to become a part of the Indian Federation (although the Portugese didn't want to let them go that easily, which was their bad).

There are still many Commonwealth and French colonies that still haven't opted for independence. They simply don't see the point in it, which could be explained by that they don't experience the foreign domination as oppressive, and that their living standards are sufficiently high.

The Palestinians living on Israeli territory still sympathize with the Palestinian cause. Individually, they may like or dislike Jews in general, they may concider the Israeli state illegal and unjustified or not, but they are much more reticent to confront it. In northern Israel, around Afula, where Palestinian communities merge with Israeli communities, there are no Israeli tanks rolling down Palestinian streets, and no Qassam rockets landing in Israeli settlements.
If you visit Palestinian villages and towns (which I have done countless of times), you'll find that their living standard is relatively high.
A family generally lives in a two storey house, big or small depending on personal income. A family generally have one car, sometimes two if the man in the house is a private entrepreneur (Palestinians generally work in the construction industry, and various manual labors).

In the old days, there was an easy way of estimating the wealth of a Palestinian community. I called it the Parabolic Count.

When a Palestinian had a bit of money put aside, he bought himself a parabolic dish, in order to capture the Arabic television transmissions from Syria, Jordan and Egypt, much preferred by the Palestinians than Israeli television.
When you ended up in a village with rooftops covered by parabolic dishes, you knew they were doing quite well.

Today, the best way of estimating Palestinian wealth is to see what state the local mosque is in. If it's newly constructed or renovated, the community is doing well.

In the so called Palestinian territories, it's like a different country. I haven't been to Palestinian controlled territory in the West Bank for more than 10 years. The Israeli authorities are trying hard to prevent both foreigners and Israelis to enter, because of the risk of kidnapping or getting hurt. I've seen the check-points, they're no fun. I wouldn't want to live with them on a daily basis.

I recently worked one month on a project in Gaza City though. The best way to describe Gaza City is to compare it to East Berlin during the Communist regime (which I visited many times). Political and religious propaganda everywhere, the city is worn down, broken and haphasardly repaired, in spite of its rich culture and glorious past.
It's an eeire feeling to walk the streets of the city alone. My white skin attracted attention and hostile looks, and even though I wasn't taken for an Israeli, I was a westerner.
A few words in Arabic generally broke the ice, and brought out the hospitality this culture is known for.

Then there's the Bedouins. They used to be the outcasts of the Palestinian society, because of their nomadic life-style, and are generally despised by other Palestinians in the same way as Gypsies are despised in Europan culture.
Because they are badly treated by the rest of the Palestinian society, they have little sympathy for the Palestinian cause, and have no problem co-existing with the Israelis – even though they're Muslims – which treats them well. In fact, since Israeli companies prefer employing Bedouines rather than other Palestinians, some settled Bedouine communities are nowadays more prosperous than the rest of the Palestinian communities.
Whenever I'm on a work project in Israel, we generally contract Bedouines. I love these guys, they're hard working, honest, generous and express no hate against anyone. I concider some of them to be among my best friends.

Then there are the Druze communities, mostly living in the northern region close to the Lebanese border, and in the Golan heights on the Syrian border. The Druze are Muslims, although they are not concidered Muslims by other Muslims (there's a twist in their interpretation of Islam, like in Shiitism). In Israel, the Druze have official recognition as a separate religious community with its own religious court system. Since the Druze have often been in conflict with the other Muslim communities, they allied themselves with the Israelis. Even though the Druze usually identify themselves as Arabs, not as Palestinians (although they are just as much Palestinian as anyone else, since being Palestinian is not about belonging to a specific ethnic community, but being born and living in Palestine).They are loyal to the Israeli nation, and serve in the Israeli Army (so now you know that there are Muslims fighting in the IDF).

 

[muddy waters]

Hi Rosy, if you want the last word just say so.

Otherwise, you can scapegoat the Palestinians or P.A. all you want, but Israel's record speaks for itself and I believe the number of U.N. resolutions against it does, likewise. If you were interested in knowing the ugly truth of Zionist ethnic cleansing you need only spend a few minutes online researching the thought of David Ben Gurion, one of the Zionist state's principle founders. Do I need to lead you there by the hand or were you just being coy?

Similarly if you are sincerely interested in what Ahmadinejad said that got the U.S. and Israeli media all trained in on the phrase "wiped off the map" (first coined by the Tehren bureau reporter for the NY Times, which has never shown Israel much bias, besides not reporting its war crimes for decades), you can understand that story better too by clicking here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

While Iran and its president have always publicly disavowed nuclear weapons, warfare, and violence, Israel spends billions on destruction and millions more on public relations gimmickry to convince its population and the U.S. that all those bombed out buildings and dead 7-year-olds are part of some "defense" campaign. (Much like the United States was forced to "defend" itself against Mexico in the 1840's, I'd say.) Nonetheless worldwide calls for a boycott of Israel continue to intensify. Wonder why--must be the enormous amounts spent by Palestine Lobby.

Finally, I isolated your example of the historical equivalence of Liberia and Israel merely to illustrate your extremely distorted perception. What does a hundred million dollar Lobby have to do with historical circumstances, like, say, the invasion of a country in the Middle East? And what does having nuclear weapons or not have to do with history, other than the ability to annihilate one's neighbors of course. And finally, how many major media conglomerates are owned by men with a demonstrated pro-Liberia bias? I think if you pause for a second to consider the facts you would realize Israel's place in history is rather unique and extremely powerful (considering its size).

 

[mriko]

LOL ! Back again to Israel vs. x, y or z ? nonono, not me this time !
Back to Iraq, here a few links to some Iraqi Blogs

and ICG Report

Irie !

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

I know mriko, it's my fault. I brought it up. In any case, I hope for a calm and peaceful Christmas weekend all over the world, the Middle East included. I know you have a good heart Muddy, and it's what counts. All the best to you guys, whatever side of the fence you're on. Save a fatty for Santa!

 

[BonsaiGrower]

wuh ... my head hurts now .... um...thanks for the read? it's a sad world we live in yes ...but I feel after reading this I don't know where it all started or what the answer to all this could be..... but man ... if you people could learn to get along and live under the same roof then you should bottle that idea and sell it to the people that control the world...peace

 

[Dignan]

This statement reminds me of the seed industry. It was founded with such good intentions. Until getting involved with my own seed company over the last month I had absolutely no idea how cutthroat these guys are. I knew some of them were bad but even the companies that I thought were fairly idealistic like reeferman and cannabiogen are just as bad if not worse than the rest. Stories of turning each other in to the police threatening peoples' families and thievery abound. All of them lied cheat and steal to get breeding stock. It would take me hours to even type up the instances where a company has taken someones lifes work with the promise of distributing it in it's pure form cheaply for the sake of the plant only to hack it up and sell f1's and that's a relatively innocent practice in comparison. Hell I was even reading a study yesterday where one of the founders of the whole seed industry and possibly the most knowledgeable cannabis breeder in the world had been given credit in a research paper outlining a genetic screening method to allow law enforcement to link dried herb samples to growers. This same individual provides all of the samples used by dea researchers and also works for a subsidiary of the pharmaceutical company that provided the nazis with all the zyclon b nerve gas used during the holocaust and is also the inventors of heroin which they marjeted as a nonaddictive substitute for morphine.

Write it all up is exactly what you need to do, Zam. I've been growing for a handful of years, bought my first commercial seed from Narc in '03 and then took hiatus... got back into the game about a year ago and it's taken me all of this past year to figure out that, if I look long and hard enough, eventually every breeder is shown to be a fraud, a criminal, a megalomaniac or a bully... and often all four!

If I cared more, I'd be really pissed about the commercial breeding scene. But instead, I just think I'll go back to trading amongst friends I trust, people I know have good hearts, people I can look straight in the eye and who can't hide behind online personas and usernames.

But my point is, if you feel the way you do, you SHOULD write it all out and expose the industry for what it is. It's high time someone with a backstage pass let the cannabis community know who we're dealing with.

[rant off]

Peace-

Dignan

 

[mriko]

This statement reminds me of the seed industry. It was founded with such good intentions. Until getting involved with my own seed company over the last month I had absolutely no idea how cutthroat these guys are. I knew some of them were bad but even the companies that I thought were fairly idealistic like reeferman and cannabiogen are just as bad if not worse than the rest. Stories of turning each other in to the police threatening peoples' families and thievery abound. All of them lied cheat and steal to get breeding stock. It would take me hours to even type up the instances where a company has taken someones lifes work with the promise of distributing it in it's pure form cheaply for the sake of the plant only to hack it up and sell f1's and that's a relatively innocent practice in comparison. Hell I was even reading a study yesterday where one of the founders of the whole seed industry and possibly the most knowledgeable cannabis breeder in the world had been given credit in a research paper outlining a genetic screening method to allow law enforcement to link dried herb samples to growers. This same individual provides all of the samples used by dea researchers and also works for a subsidiary of the pharmaceutical company that provided the nazis with all the zyclon b nerve gas used during the holocaust and is also the inventors of heroin which they marjeted as a nonaddictive substitute for morphine.

Heheh, welcome to the business world Zamalito !

Is it this research you're talking about ?


Irie !