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Iraq Study Group: Change Iraq strategy now

pipeline

Cannabotanist
ICMag Donor
Veteran
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/06/iraq.study.group/index.html
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Iraq Study Group called the situation in Iraq "grave and deteriorating" Wednesday and recommended a radically different approach from President Bush's current policy, including the withdrawal of most U.S. combat troops by early 2008.

In delivering its report to Bush and Congress, the bipartisan panel listed 79 recommendations for change in Iraq strategy, including direct talks with Iran and Syria as part of a "diplomatic offensive."

All 10 members of the panel, chaired by former Secretary of State James Baker, a Republican, and former Democratic Rep. Lee Hamilton of Indiana, met with Bush at the White House to present the bound report. (View the complete report -- PDF)

The Bush administration has repeatedly rejected calls to seek help from Iran and Syria.

But the report states that "Iraq's neighbors and key states in and outside the region should form a support group" to help Iraq achieve long-term security and political reconciliation -- "neither of which it can sustain on its own."

"If we don't talk to them, we don't see much progress being made," Hamilton said. "You can't look at this part of the world and pick and choose which countries you're going to deal with."

The panel, which was chartered by Congress, warns of dire consequences, both at home and abroad, if the U.S. fails to take action. (Watch Democrats claim vindication on Iraq Video)

"If the situation continues to deteriorate, the consequences could be severe. A slide toward chaos could trigger the collapse of Iraq's government and a humanitarian catastrophe," the report says.

"Neighboring countries could intervene. Sunni-Shia clashes could spread. Al Qaeda could win a propaganda victory and expand its base of operations. The global standing of the United States could be diminished. Americans could become more polarized."

On the military front, the report suggests, "By the first quarter of 2008, subject to unexpected developments in the security situation on the ground, all combat brigades not necessary for force protection could be out of Iraq."

It adds: "At that time, U.S. combat forces in Iraq could be deployed only in units embedded with Iraqi forces, in rapid-reaction and special operations teams and in training, equipping, advising, force protection and search and rescue."

The co-chairs said they took "a pragmatic approach" to determining the best course for Iraq and determined the solution was not a military, political or economic one, but rather a combination of the three. (Read full story)

"We no longer can afford to stay the course," Baker said. "If we do what we recommend in this report, it will certainly improve our chances for success."

Hamilton echoed his colleague's sentiments, saying the Iraqi people are "suffering great hardship" and their lives must be improved.

"The current approach is not working and the ability of the United States to influence events is diminishing," Hamilton said. "Our ship of state has hit rough waters. It must now chart a new way forward."

Among the group's recommendations were calls for a change in the primary mission of U.S. forces in Iraq that will allow the United States to move forces out responsibly.

It also calls for prompt action by the Iraqi government to achieve milestones, particularly reconciliation. (Watch co-chair explain why the "current approach is not working" Video)
Stemming violence

Attacks against U.S. and coalition troops are "persistent and growing," the report states, and about 3,000 Iraqi civilians are killed every month.

"Violence is increasing in scope, complexity and lethality," the report says, blaming the Sunni Arab insurgency, Shiite militias and death squads, al Qaeda and other jihadist groups as the sources.

"Sectarian violence -- particularly in and around Baghdad -- has become the principal challenge to stability."

The U.S. military's ability to combat the violence is dwindling because of shortages in manpower and other resources, the report says.

It says almost every U.S. Army and Marine unit, as well as several National Guard and reserve units, have been to Iraq at least once, if not two or three times.

"Regular rotations, in and out of Iraq or within the country, complicate brigade and battalion efforts to get to know the local scene, earn the trust of the population and build a sense of cooperation," according to the report.

"The American military has little reserve force to call on if it needs ground forces to respond to other crises around the world."

Many units are "under significant strain" and equipment is wearing out quickly because of the harsh conditions in Iraq.

Iraqi security forces, too, are ill-equipped to fight the insurgency and are making only "fitful progress toward becoming a reliable and disciplined fighting force," according to the report.

Although U.S. troops have received adequate funding, "the entire appropriation for Iraqi defense forces [for fiscal year] 2006 [$3 billion] is less than the United States spends in Iraq every two weeks."

The state of the Iraqi police force is even worse, states the report.

"It has neither the training nor legal authority to conduct criminal investigations, nor the firepower to take on organized crime, insurgents, or militias," it says.

"Iraqi police cannot control crime, and they routinely engage in sectarian violence, including the unnecessary detention, torture, and targeted execution of Sunni Arab civilians."

In addition to its inability to provide security, the Iraqi government also fails to provide basic services like electricity, drinking water, sewage, health care and education, the report says.

"The government sometimes provides services on a sectarian basis. For example, in one Sunni neighborhood of Shia-governed Baghdad, there is less than two hours of electricity each day and trash piles are waist-high,' according to the report.

The report says Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's government needs to show "substantial progress ... on national reconciliation, security and governance" or face a reduction in "political, military, or economic support" from Washington.

The report also prods the administration to launch a new diplomatic initiative to solve the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
No timetable

It contends the United States "cannot achieve its goals in the Mideast" unless it embarks on a "renewed and sustained commitment to a comprehensive peace plan on all fronts.

While not recommending a timetable for withdrawal, the report says: "The United States must not make an open-ended commitment to keep large numbers of American troops deployed in Iraq."

"We will take every proposal seriously, and we will act in a timely fashion," Bush said after receiving the report. (Watch Bush's reaction after receiving Iraq report Video)

Bush urged Congress to work with the administration to find "common ground" on Iraq policy.

Democratic leaders praised the report. Incoming Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called it a "tremendous step forward" and Sen. Joe Biden, who will head the foreign relations committee in January, said it was "a significant contribution."

Sen. Carl Levin, who will take over the chairmanship of the Armed Services Committee in January, said, "The report represents another blow at the policy of stay the course that this administration has followed. Hopefully, this will be the end of that stay-the-course policy."

Asked if the report represented a repudiation of Bush's Iraq policy, White House press secretary Tony Snow said, "No, it's something we have acknowledged. It's an acknowledgement of reality."

"We look at this as a very positive document. One of the things they said is, 'We're not coming here, Mr. President, to criticize you,' " Snow said.

"What they said is that this is an opportunity -- they see an opportunity to come with a new way forward. Well, yes. And we like that. We like the formulation."
 
I know Bush and his administration are total morons. But I wonder if their true strategy all along was to throw that region into chaos. For what purpose, I'm not sure. Its almost unthinkable that our leaders could have fucked up this bad.
 

pipeline

Cannabotanist
ICMag Donor
Veteran
And it seems everyone knew the place was gettin fucked up and things werent going right. I don't even watch TV!

But it took a friggin' report to get them to change. What a bunch of ignorant heel draggers....
 
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mriko

Green Mujaheed
Veteran
Its almost unthinkable that our leaders could have fucked up this bad.

Even more unthinkable that the American people elected Bush for a second run. Voters have been as ignorant as them when they did so...

"Neighboring countries could intervene. Sunni-Shia clashes could spread. Al Qaeda could win a propaganda victory and expand its base of operations. The global standing of the United States could be diminished. Americans could become more polarized."

Amazing... All that is already done !!!

Whatever comes out from this, USA international reputation is heavily damaged for years to come I think. And I see no reason why they would stop fucking around. Damn what are US "goals in the Mideast" ? Same than anywhere else, power, economic looting.

I wouldn't put my trust on Baker, simply because this guy agrees with, in the last end, a military strike on Iran. As much crazy if not worse than going Iraq...

Whatever turns out from this report, the result is very much the same. Iraq have been destroyed.

Irie !
 

mriko

Green Mujaheed
Veteran
It's not like Iraq wasnt already corrupt

Is that a reason enough to blow up a country ? Corruption ? If so US have quite somework to do, first at home !

Irie !
 

sttb

Member
yea lets feed the iraqi's to iran that'll work i just think we ought to pull all the forces home and let each country defend themselvles and those who loose to the hitlers of the world to bad the US needs to learn not everyone in the world wants to live like us and butt out of other countrys affairs
 

subrob

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
my first controversial post<i know im gonna catch shit!>

my first controversial post<i know im gonna catch shit!>

first off, i despise the bush dynasty
second, i hate war-was 1st inf div. tanker in iraq in 90 and 91, now disabled veteran
third- im so far left i make democrats look like nazi's<so my friends tell me>
fourth- there is no doubt in my mind that the govt has lied to us about everything iraq from the start, goin on 20 years.(did i mention fuck bush?!)
okay, no more numbers, i just want to say a couple things. i believe we are helping iraqis. these people are fighting for freedom. we are helping. there is no instant fix for this situation. many times over the years i felt like we did not do what we should have the first time. we pulled out before we got saddam, and people who had come to count on us to provide freedom from tyranny, thats all, freedom, paid for it with thier blood and lives. let me tell you, that dont feel good. i believe the BIPRODUCTof whatever plan the 20+ yr. old bush dynasty had/has for iraq is the offer of freedom for the segment of iraq that i believe in. those that want peace, love and freedom. they are there, and they deserve everything we all have. with all the coverage of the warring factions, noone says much of the LARGEST demographic of iraq: the victims! if there was not such a large # of these peaceful people, the sects recieving all the attention would have run out of people to kill a long time ago! and lets not forget we are a 100% volunteer military. <virtually all> those that are serving over there signed on knowing what they would be doing. and also, saying i support the soldiers but not the war, thats nice and all, certainly appreciated, but its kinda like saying i support them, just not what they believe in.

I am not slamming anyones opinion here at all. believe me, i have gone back and forth on this issue EVERY day of my life since i stepped foot in iraq. its not something i talk much about at all, just inspired by the moment.im also very stoned. wish i wouldve written this post straight!!!

and yes, to my non us friends, i am embarrassed and ashamed at times the way my federal and state governments act. and yes, i believe we are bullies as a nation, but not as individuals. i will put the heart of america up against(oops, theres an americanism!) i will put the heart of america and americans up WITH the hearts of the many great and wonderful nations and cultures that exist on this planet. peace

let the fun begin.......
 

naga_sadu

Active member
An exit stratergy outta Iraq is prolly one of the most thoughtful courses of action the US leaders can engage in rite now. If, after all these years, a fucking road leading from point A to point B can't be secured, without a loco settin off an IED or a sniper takin a potshot at u, it's a pretty damn good indicator that the tactics aren't working. The "hearts and minds" op was a colossal blunder, and is simply unachievable. Even if 10,000 US soldiers are taking out of their own rations to feed poverty stricken Iraqis and 10 US soldiers torture Iraqis, the latter is what gets highlighted. Because alien forces w/ guns occupying another's territory NEVER win "hearts and minds" of a local populus.

The US can help out the Iraqis throw "violent and brutal" dictators the similar way the French helped the US overthrow colonial England. Or how the Soviets helped the VC/ NVA overthrow the fucked up regime of Diem and Thieu. The Soviets never entered physically into Hanoi or Vietnamese territory. And the French left the second AMerica became free from England.

The term "brutal dictator" and the "need to be free" should come from the voices of the local populus and not from some chicken hawk politician come oil corporation endorser sitting 12,000 miles away from the country of the "brutal dictator", and doesn't even know shit about the place. "Oh but Saddam woulda had them killed!" is a popular counter. Well, what do coalition troops do to those who take potshots at them? Give them free passes to six flags???? Ok, Iraqi army under Saddam woulda fired back at whoever took potshots at 'em w/ AKs and chemical weapons and the coalition does the same w/ phosperous bombs and M-16s.

And not a SINGLE designer or shotcaller of the Iraq war had the urge to tug it out on the front lines, which cuts out all the credability of this so called war for liberation of Iraqis. Which is what gave creadability to the struggles carried out by ppls. like George Washington, Vo Nguyen Giap and Lenin.

People who TRULY needed the US army's help during the entire Iraq war timeframe were the Liberians under Charles Taylor. The people were BEGGING the US gov for help and everyone was singing along to "America, we are one" from morning to night. The Iraqis never invited the US.

It's not like Iraq wasnt already corrupt

As Mriko said, corruption isin't a reason to blow a country up to smithereens. And most recently, South Korea's Daewoo corporation got bankrupt in a MASSIVE corruption scandal, which would put the amount of corruption in Iraq during the Ba'athist regime to shame. But last I checked, there was no "shock and awe" being carried out in Seoul. And most of the $$$ received by Sunni insurgents in Iraq comes from Saudi Arabia (to counter the Shia $$$ being pumped in by Iran). And fuckin' A....Nigeria is corrupt as FUCK!! And the US gov. too is pretty damned corrupt. If it weren't we'd be seeing hemp shirts in department stores and we'd also be able to buy mmj in 7-11s.

And yes, there was corruption in Saddam's government. But quite personally, I'd rather live under Saddam than under the king of Saudi or Kuwait or under the Nigerian government any fucking day of the week.

I wouldn't put my trust on Baker, simply because this guy agrees with, in the last end, a military strike on Iran. As much crazy if not worse than going Iraq...

On one end he supports military strikes on Iran. On the other, he wants Syria and Iran to play an active role in shaping a post Saddam Iraq after the US leaves.
 

Pops

Resident pissy old man
Veteran
Interesting that people should now talk about an exit strategy, as there is really no exit strategy availabe now that we have totally fucked up the country. Bush and the rest of the american administration never considered that Iraq has existed for 7000 years under tribal or clan leadership with kings and dictators over them. They really don't know what democracy is, apart from a few of their more educated people who lived and were educated in Europe or the U.S. As we Americans, the French and a few others found out, to have a democracy, you must believe in it, fight for it , and die for it, if necessary. No foreign nation can come into your country and bring democracy to you like a Christmas present. If we pull out now, there will be civil war. If we pull out 10 years from now, there will be civil war. Too many ethnic divisions, too many religious divisions, too many opposing clerics, all of whom want the power. Saddam was an asshole, and if he hadn't invaded Kuwait(which he did because he thought he was assured that the U.S. would do nothing), then we would have done nothing. We didn't give a shit that he was killing Kurds. Hell, the Turks hate the Kurds more than Saddam did. we didn't give a shit that he was killing his own people as long as the oil continued to flow. He made the big mistake of threatening our oil supply from kuwait. His goose was cooked. Do we worry about the corruption in Nigeria, or the masses of people being killed in the Sudan? Hell, no. Those people are Black and do not have oil.Well, over 150,000 dead Iraquis, 3000 dead Americans, with 25,000 wounded, a few hundred dead Brits--what the hell have we gained? After a dozen years in Viet Nam, we finally pulled out and let the corrupt gov't there be conquered after we had lost over 50,000 men and women, with a quarter-million wounded. When the hell will we ever learn?
 

een

Member
You probably COULD succeed in Iraq but it would cost so much there wouldn't be any point. If you pull out now you will only have spent $400bn, which is about $2000 for every taxpayer. You either have to pay that much extra tax over the next few years, or accept $400bn cuts in services like health and education over the next few years. If you stay there it will apparently cost more like $1.3 trillion, so multiply everything by 3.

This page is pretty funny:
/url]http://www.democrats.org/a/p/the_real_cost_of_the_iraq_war_to_american_taxpayers.html[/url]
"One day in Iraq could employ 4,919 fire fighters, 4,222 police patrol officers, or 7,052 paramedics and emergency medical technicians for one year each.v
...
One day in Iraq could cover the full cost of attendance for one year at a public college for more than 17,100 students.xii
...
One day in Iraq could cover the full cost of attendance for one year at a public college for more than 17,100 students.xii
...
One day in Iraq could employ 4,269 elementary school teachers or 4,027 secondary school teachers for one year.xv
...
One day in Iraq could provide health insurance coverage for one year to 380,900 uninsured children in America.xvii
...
One day in Iraq could employ 3,597 additional registered nurses for one year.xviii
...
One day in Iraq could immunize every baby born in the U.S. last year against measles, mumps, and rubella 14.2 times.xx
...
One day in Iraq could pay for an increase of $3.34 per hour in the wages of every minimum wage worker in the country.xxiv
...
One day in Iraq could provide paid sick leave to half a million workers for an entire year.xxv
...
One day in Iraq could buy 71.55 million gallons of unleaded regular gasoline.xxvi
...
One day in Iraq could pay for one year’s gasoline consumption for 97,500 Americans, even at today’s elevated prices.xxvii
...
One day in Iraq could feed all of the starving children in the world today almost four and a half times over.xxxi
One day in Iraq could vaccinate three-quarters of the children in Africa for measles and give millions a lifetime protection from the disease.xxxii
One day in Iraq could build 5,571 AIDS clinics in Africa.xxxiii
One day in Iraq could provide 650,000 women in Africa living with HIV/AIDS antiretroviral treatment for one year to extend their lives and improve the lives of their children.xxxiv
"

All this for... Iraq?
 

PazVerdeRadical

all praises are due to the Most High
Veteran
Pops said:
Interesting that people should now talk about an exit strategy, as there is really no exit strategy availabe now that we have totally fucked up the country. Bush and the rest of the american administration never considered that Iraq has existed for 7000 years under tribal or clan leadership with kings and dictators over them. They really don't know what democracy is, apart from a few of their more educated people who lived and were educated in Europe or the U.S. As we Americans, the French and a few others found out, to have a democracy, you must believe in it, fight for it , and die for it, if necessary. No foreign nation can come into your country and bring democracy to you like a Christmas present. If we pull out now, there will be civil war. If we pull out 10 years from now, there will be civil war. Too many ethnic divisions, too many religious divisions, too many opposing clerics, all of whom want the power. Saddam was an asshole, and if he hadn't invaded Kuwait(which he did because he thought he was assured that the U.S. would do nothing), then we would have done nothing. We didn't give a shit that he was killing Kurds. Hell, the Turks hate the Kurds more than Saddam did. we didn't give a shit that he was killing his own people as long as the oil continued to flow. He made the big mistake of threatening our oil supply from kuwait. His goose was cooked. Do we worry about the corruption in Nigeria, or the masses of people being killed in the Sudan? Hell, no. Those people are Black and do not have oil.Well, over 150,000 dead Iraquis, 3000 dead Americans, with 25,000 wounded, a few hundred dead Brits--what the hell have we gained? After a dozen years in Viet Nam, we finally pulled out and let the corrupt gov't there be conquered after we had lost over 50,000 men and women, with a quarter-million wounded. When the hell will we ever learn?

true that pops!
but i must remind you of your own strategy to liberate iraq: hookers and cannabis!
seriously, the u.s should pull out and to avoid a civil war, they should send down beautiful looking hookers all dressed in appealing bikinis carrying at least a couple kilos of the finest colombian sativas.
the hookers will be recruited from all over the world and will be our own liberation army, while we stay at wonderful micro-climates growing the herbs to provide :joint:
so who has the funds to invest on this idea?
our hardest mission is going to be after iraq, we are going to attack with hookers and cannabis the bible belt in the u.s :biglaugh:
paz
 

Pops

Resident pissy old man
Veteran
Damn, Paz, I'm moving back to the Bible belt. I moved from there to get away from those religious whackos, but I'll move back just to see the look of love and joy on their face the first time they toke on some santa marta gold. If you attack the bible belt, can I be your secret agent man there? I work cheap! Let's team up with zamalito and luiz. We will do a shock and awe campaign. We will shock them with Manga Rosa and Santa marta and then awe them with brazilian Lemon and Punta roja. Your army of hookers could conquer the world. Imagine the beautiful Colombian ladies, backed up by the incredible bundas of the brazilian contingent. Losing a war could be so much fun!
 

naga_sadu

Active member
Bush and the rest of the american administration never considered that Iraq has existed for 7000 years under tribal or clan leadership with kings and dictators over them. They really don't know what democracy is, apart from a few of their more educated people who lived and were educated in Europe or the U.S. As we Americans, the French and a few others found out, to have a democracy, you must believe in it, fight for it , and die for it, if necessary.

I seriously doubt as to whether or not a multiparty democracy can work in an environment like Iraq, especially considering its past political history. The same was tried in the Balkans and it flopped. Also in RUssia (w/ regards to Chechnya). And the emergence of this "party democracy" has fucked up South Asia. Though I don't support Saddam as a leader, the Ba'ath as a system works better for countries w/ lotsa ethnics who don't have good blood towards one another.

Democracy and values like "freedom of speech", "freedom of press" don't mean much if your living in a violence torn hellhole w/ a bombed out infrastructure. The FIRST and MAJOR flop the US gov made when "exporting democracy" (or acquiring oil) was that they completely erased every bit of public service ever in existance and fucked up the normalcy of life in Iraq. Without normalcy, nobody's going to give a fuck about democracy or elections. Those bridges, those residential complexes etc cost a fuckload of years to build and only a few months to obliterate.

The Iraqis surely desired more democracy and personal freedom than offered under the Ba'athist rule. There's no denying of that...but not at the cost of the destruction of their infrastructure and the degradation of their homeland into a violence and strife torn hellhole.

It just fucking pisses me off when clowns like Karzai and Maliki come on TV and say w/ fake enthusiasm lines like "Oh my Iraqi (or Afghani) brothers, you are now free to build your own country." Well, if I was an Iraqi or an Afghan reply "I want water when I turn on the tap and I want that lightbulb to burn when I flip on the switch. And I want to get to work without having to worry about being fucking kidpapped, beheaded and ditched in a river." I'd imagine the average Iraqi feels the same way as well.

Anyone who deems the destruction of a country in an offensive manner as necessary in order to liberate it doesn't give a FUCK about "liberation." And when the "free" system thats being created looks 100x worse than the previous one in place, you know that the architects of this "liberation" campaign have other personal agendas in store.
 
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PazVerdeRadical

all praises are due to the Most High
Veteran
pops, you were the master mind behind this select liberation army of loving ladies and cannabis, so you can be a secret agent if you want to! :wave: :joint:

nada sadu, word is bond. the exportation of democracy has failed, the imposement of central states/goverments has failed. democracy has failed. what is the future?
i look at south america, africa and se asia as the future of the world, because we have the perfect breeding grounds to make the best informed choices. hopefully, we will be stirring away from north american and western european modern day values.
the question is, do we have the courage to admit that we have been operating under false assumptions which we never dared to question?

peace.
 

naga_sadu

Active member
hopefully, we will be stirring away from north american and western european modern day values.

It's not so the "North American" and "Western" values which bothers me- it's elitist values. No matter what culture they originate from. In my very own culture, elitism is what created the notorious caste system. This was done WAY before America was founded and WAY before Europe was even a civilisation.

I don't know the ground realities of South America or anywhere else, but as far as India goes, we did have a modernised version of "indegenous culture" in the 50s up to the late 80s, which was by and large free of elitism. It sure had its gaps but it worked for the common person. As far as India goes, we need to take a LEFT TURN NOW! I think we took a right turn too many after the USSR collapsed...

The problem I see w/ the hermanos, the bhaijos and the comrades is that most of them simply lack self belief that they can take control of their own lifes instead of just following a set of preprogrammed mechanical chores dictated by someone wealthier and more powerful than them. A IT entrepreneur from a developing country is 95% of the time content w/ getting a purchase order from the West and doing jobwork for them instead of designing a product indegenously and marketing it nationwide & worldwide. At a larger level, our gobiernos have no faith in the local economy & seem to think that receiving massive amounts of revenue from 1-2 foreign sources is better than receiving moderate amounts of revenue from 1000 local sources. 10*1000 = 1000*10.

It's sad to say, but way too many hermanos / bhaijos / comrades have a hardcore defeatist mentality starting from the ground up right up to the highest echelons of society. The moment we shrug this defeatist mentality is the day when we can expect to live a life free of bullshit.
 

Pops

Resident pissy old man
Veteran
Unfortunately, gentlemen, we are dealing with human nature. Not all have been created equal. Some are more intelligent, some are stronger, some are , by nature ,more aggressive. Somewhere, somehow, an individual has a better idea, becomes a little richer. Riches bring power. Wealth and power corrupt. Man is prone to corruption. Somewhere along the line, man invented a club. Some used the club to hunt meat, others used the club to bash his neighbor on the head and steal his meat. Will we ever have a peacefull world? I doubt it. Will we ever have a true democracy? Not bloody likely! Will we ever have a Socialist utopia, with everyone sharing from the collective wealth and resources? Nope, too many greedy bastards in the world. Does this mean that all the crazy, lunitic idealists in the world have given up? Fortunately not. Some of us really stupid ones still have a slim hope that one day, before we wipe ourselves out, we will discover that we are all the same under the skin, and have common hopes, dreams and desires. Our problem is lack of common vision. For people in 3rd world countries, the vision might just be to survive. In modern nations, it might be to hang on to all we have and to gain more. We do not have a clue as to the precarious nature of our existance on this planet and the slim chance of survival of our race. If you look at the history of our world, species come and go. We think of ourselves as something special. King of the animals. Smartest creatures ever developed! But the Gods of the universe are not impressed by our intelligence or our accomplishments. Ice ages come and go , volcanoes spew their lava, and asteroids fly through our airspace. One day it will be all over and if we don't get our shit together, there will be nothing we can do about it. All our petty arguments will be for naught. all our wealth will go up in flames and will not save us. About 74,000 years ago, toba, a super volcano on Sumatra, blew up and sent a cloud of ash all across the earth, which lowered temperatures by 15 degrees in Europe. Most vegetation was lost, and all of mankind, except 5-10,000 people were wiped out. This could easily happen again with the super volcano under yellowstone Park, which is 10 times the size of Toba. Mankind ignores history and does not plan for the future. We need to get our shit together and learn to co-exist and put our collective minds together to solve the current problems that we have and plan for future problems. Unfortunately, even a person as idealistic as myself has little hope that it will ever happen in my lifetime. Sorry to bore you all with this bullshit.. I am not used to smoking Sativas this early in my day. I am coughing my lungs out and waxing philosophical at the same time!
 

PazVerdeRadical

all praises are due to the Most High
Veteran
naga_sadu said:
It's sad to say, but way too many hermanos / bhaijos / comrades have a hardcore defeatist mentality starting from the ground up right up to the highest echelons of society. The moment we shrug this defeatist mentality is the day when we can expect to live a life free of bullshit.

i agree naga man, and i see why most of our hermanos / bhaijos / comrades choose to be wage-slaves rather than be their own bosses, and it is because it is a lot easier to depend on a salary for doing a bullshit mechanical job. on the other hand, creating something useful is harder. i know it is frustrating to see our hermanos / bhaijos / comrades falling behind and being comformists, but as pops points out, not everyone is the same nor is inspired in the same degree.
also, we cannot ignore that this defeatist mentality has been having a proper breeding ground as well, that is, all conditions for such pathogen are right, and are kept right as well... serious subject anyway you look at it :chin:
may have to smoke a spliff to think about this :D :joint:
peace.
 

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