Indoor Vertical Grow Systems 101

[whodair]

im bare bulb vert...

however if i had a long narrow closet space with a high ceiling id prob do a flat garden with reflector... narrow spaces arent ideal for vert ya know ??

 

[canadiancracker]

hoods hit the storage shed and ive used some for various mini project but never again will they be used as reflectors..

like a thread on here a while ago.. the lonely reflector lol or the dusty reflector lol..

with a light mover this is another vertical style of growing.

side by side vertical systems with a light mover on the ceiling above the systems, a pulley wheel centered above each system and as the mover moves. it raises one bulb while lowering the other, and vise versa. with identical bulbs and weight this is easily achieved. ill be back with a paint drawing soon.. dont forget CC taught you this. i have never seen anyone else do this.

 

[Bob Smith]

DW.....I`ve never run anything but vertical bare bulbs , so I wouldn`t know the difference in brightness from horizontal reflectors , and for the record ..........with bare bulbs ALWAYS wear welder`s glasses in the rooms light`s on per sticky by Mr C.......but........

My lumens were measured by digital meters and not speculated on .......3' away from a bulb sideways is not optimal.........induces stretching and increased internodal spacing for the most part from what I ran over the yrs.....

Good luck...DHF......

What lux number did you tend to shoot for? Also have a digital light meter (only used it to take readings before I designed the system around it), but I'd be curious as to what your goal was - have asked this question all over the Net and it seems as though no one wants to (or can) give me a straight answer.

That said, I don't think watts/sq ft calculation works quite the same for vert. We normally caluclate based on a flat footprint and a reflector. With no reflector, I have to believe the bulbs energy is disbursed more efficiently.

There's a great thread by Ddoc (inventor of Cage, Coliseum, etc.) where he talks about this in-depth - he recommends 20 watts/sq. foot for vertical, which I assume is referring to the square footage of the vertical canopy.

It's on cannabis - world dot org if you're interested (would've PM'd you but lack the required posts).

 

[DHF]

Hey Bob.........I`m at the beach on my laptop watchin it rain , so I can`t give yas a straight answer either right now , but it`s stored on my desktop at the farm........

I do know my meter never measured "Lux" , but rather Lumens and footcandles....I also know the conversion from light per sq ft on lumens and footcandles to Lux is the difference between a sq ft and a sq meter measurement......but......

I used "Eye" hortilux bulbs and Lumatek ballasts for as many lumens as I could blast at their ass sideways.......around 90,000 +/- per bulb as I remember correctly.......Been a few yrs since I used said meter and once shit was dialed , it went in storage.....

This watts per sq ft vertically versus horizontally has been debated and argued over for yrs , but seeing your post about 20 watts per sq ft of vertical canopy being optimum , directly coorelates with my walls/shelves/racks bein in the 22-24 sq ft range , and with 4 of em around 3-600`s on top of each other....

Approximately 90+/- sq ft of vertical canopy sideways on all 4 walls with 1800 watts per room , but.....in only 36 sq ft of actual room area relating to the minimum 50 watts per sq ftg requirement on horizontal floor grows.....Things that make yas go hmmmm........
Coincedence ?........Prolly not.....

Started out with pre-vegged , pruned , and shaped , month old 18-20" plants and they finished at about 10-12" from the bulbs hangin through hortinova netting around 30" long from top of coco in the smartpots......

Goin home for Thanksgiving and will dig up those numbers for yas Bob , although if my math`s right with my setups that were around 270 cu ft with around and lil over 270,000 lumens in the room, it would stand to reason that 1000 lumens and lil more per cu ft is the proper number for dialed conditions IMO.......

What`re your thoughts Bob.......

Take care and good luck.....DHF............

 

[Bob Smith]

Hey Bob.........I`m at the beach on my laptop watchin it rain , so I can`t give yas a straight answer either right now , but it`s stored on my desktop at the farm........

I do know my meter never measured "Lux" , but rather Lumens and footcandles....I also know the conversion from light per sq ft on lumens and footcandles to Lux is the difference between a sq ft and a sq meter measurement......but......

I used "Eye" hortilux bulbs and Lumatek ballasts for as many lumens as I could blast at their ass sideways.......around 90,000 +/- per bulb as I remember correctly.......Been a few yrs since I used said meter and once shit was dialed , it went in storage.....

This watts per sq ft vertically versus horizontally has been debated and argued over for yrs , but seeing your post about 20 watts per sq ft of vertical canopy being optimum , directly coorelates with my walls/shelves/racks bein in the 22-24 sq ft range , and with 4 of em around 3-600`s on top of each other....

Approximately 90+/- sq ft of vertical canopy sideways on all 4 walls with 1800 watts per room , but.....in only 36 sq ft of actual room area relating to the minimum 50 watts per sq ftg requirement on horizontal floor grows.....Things that make yas go hmmmm........
Coincedence ?........Prolly not.....

Started out with pre-vegged , pruned , and shaped , month old 18-20" plants and they finished at about 10-12" from the bulbs hangin through hortinova netting around 30" long from top of coco in the smartpots......

Goin home for Thanksgiving and will dig up those numbers for yas Bob , although if my math`s right with my setups that were around 270 cu ft with around and lil over 270,000 lumens in the room, it would stand to reason that 1000 lumens and lil more per cu ft is the proper number for dialed conditions IMO.......

What`re your thoughts Bob.......

Take care and good luck.....DHF............

Appreciate the input there - good points for discussion with someone who has actually run their setup before (I haven't).

Tried to give you some more rep but they wouldn't let me........

As far as "my thoughts", I honestly don't have that many - ripped down my flat gardens and decided to go vert or die, so this is gonna be my first run in my new system.

Measurements are ~22" from the leading lip of the wye to the edge of the cooltube (it's the Vertitube you don't like, but my 14K AC couldn't keep up running bare bulbs and I didn't want to have to retrofit horizontal cooltubes), so I'm shooting for a finishing radius of 15-18", which by my guesstimates (will get my replacement vertitube glass on Thursday and take some measurements to verify) will get me in the 70-80K lumens mark.

Running 4 600s in the vertitube, and will be alternating between super HPS and dual arcs, so HPS-DA-HPS-DA.

The dual arcs only put out 61K lumens (HPS is 90K, as advertised and confirmed with my light meter), so I might need to go with all four HPS if the lumens aren't there for explosive growth with the dual arcs, but I'm thinking the overlap between four lights and the better spectrum of the dual arcs should be enough.

Time will tell, obviously.

Oh, did you run CO2? I'm going to be running at 1500PPMs pretty much throughout, so I'm wondering if I should be minimizing my radius to increase light intensity............lol, as you can tell this first run is going to be a learning experience, but hopefully the curve will be steep.

Here's a pic or two of my setup:

 

[DHF]

Don`t even think about using CO2 until you`ve got intermediate skills.........

It`s a waste of time , money , and equipment if yas don`t accomodate the plants with higher room temps and increased ppm levels for the accellerated metabolism CO2 requires to perform properly......

Squeeze every gram outta each strain monocropping , and then increase room temps for proper absorption , add CO2 , and let us know the difference versus yield against cost of equipment.....

If I had em , I`d run straight HPS and lose the dual-arc , but I`ve always been about overkill and environment.....

CO2`s hyped way too much for what it does compared to cost........

Good luck....DHF........

 

[Bob Smith]

Oh no bro, this isn't my first barbecue - this is just my first time going vertical, ergo the questions.

My room is 100% dialed in - Sentinel CHHC-1 controlling heat, AC, dehumidifier, and CO2 - I can dial in any parameter I'd like (100% sealed room, save for the small amount of leakage from the portable) - the only exception was that the AC couldn't keep the room under 84F with bare bulbs (fucking portables), so I got the cooltubes to be able to drop temps down into the low 70s at the end of flowering.

Got chillers, UV filters, etc..........

However, regarding your mono-cropping statement - that's the exact opposite reason of why I went vertical.

I could get good yields running my SOG horizontal, but didn't like having to monocrop to do so - went vertical so I can run different strains (but with similar growth, finishing times, etc.) and still get a good yield but have variety.

And from a lot of growers I converse with at another site I frequent, the dual arcs are the greatest thing since sliced bread - I wanna run them myself and do my own tests.

 

[DHF]

Sorry Bro.........Handle it and let us know how it`s done properly.......

Tightass over here.......didn`t realize your skill level......I still never used CO2 , but rather exchanged my room`s air twice per minute for 450-750 ppm`s in the air we breathe depending on how much smog`s added to the equation with major metropolitan areas.........

Take care.....DHF.......

 

[Tilt]

http://www.windowfarms.org/

found this one today looked kinda cool

 

[BlueberryLovr]

From what I gather, everyone is either growing untrained or untrained+VSCROG with topping at most for training.

I haven't seen anyone discuss this, but is LST training feasible in a vertical setup? Seems like it can decrease the height requirements of multi-level vertical structures and allow for perhaps an additional level with the shortened heights. Cram more plants into a vert structure.

Ex: no training- flower at 10", finish at 22". LST- flower at 10" horizontal/5+" tall, finish at 17". If you are running a 3+ level octagon, that's almost 5" saved per level--after 3 levels, you have gained a free 15", 20" after 4, and so forth.

This is assuming strains that aren't stretchier than average, of course. Even if the height savings do not add up to an extra level, the grow will still benefit because plants can be packed tighter into a bulb's 'sweet spot'. Seems like a win-win to me. What am I missing?

 

[DevilWeed]

BBL, I say yes. I defoliate and LST heavy on a couple of my strains. Some don't need it. I always aim to increase bud sites and create an even dense canopy. When I switched to vertical (just recently) I started LST'ing those same plants into more of a fan shape. Instead of pulling branches down evenly all the way around, I pull them to one side or the other, spreading them evenly. Creates a wide but shallow plant with bud sites from stump to stem.

 

[BlueberryLovr]

Fan shape like this?

Pull all branches into the VSCROG.


I haven't grown many strains. (Love my Blueberry seeds and phenos too much heh) What would be your criteria for strains that need or do not need LST?

I assume plants with strong lateral branching do not need it? Ie. plants that ultimately finish flower looking like a Menorah but with shorter outer branches, of course.

 

[mg75]

not trying to promote AN or urban remo... but a lot of urbangrower.com's medi gardens out in BC are vertical bare bulbs and some rooms have huge 7-8 ft trees indoors all in sunshine # 4 soilless. all large bare bulb rooms are "perfect" and completely sealed (co2,AC, etc).

check out urban grower (urban remo) on youtube or his own website.

 

[bobblehead]

Look deeper friend...

 

[vicious bee]

This is very interesting but now it's time for the reaaallllyy stupid questions. Why is vert better? Is it because less light is wasted on reflectors? A reflector is very efficient. Flat white reflects 95 to 98% of light. Are your grows 5% better? 10%? 15%? 20%? What increase do you get from vert with the same lights and strains but vert instead of horizontal? Could it be that the plant hit from the side absorbs more light? I wonder why none of you are starting with smaller bulbs when the plants are small and moving the plants to larger ones when the plants are bigger.
If the reason that verts are better is because the light is hitting more leaf area horizontally couldn't you do a 180 degree vert with a reflector. (No one faint. It's just an idea) In my case where I grow a 180 vert would be convenient. Put the reflector on the cabs door. No one be mean. I'm trying to get a handle on this. I want to know what is the basis for this being more efficient. If you know that you can make it better.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

This is very interesting but now it's time for the reaaallllyy stupid questions. Why is vert better? Is it because less light is wasted on reflectors? A reflector is very efficient. Flat white reflects 95 to 98% of light. Are your grows 5% better? 10%? 15%? 20%? What increase do you get from vert with the same lights and strains but vert instead of horizontal? Could it be that the plant hit from the side absorbs more light? I wonder why none of you are starting with smaller bulbs when the plants are small and moving the plants to larger ones when the plants are bigger.
If the reason that verts are better is because the light is hitting more leaf area horizontally couldn't you do a 180 degree vert with a reflector. (No one faint. It's just an idea) In my case where I grow a 180 vert would be convenient. Put the reflector on the cabs door. No one be mean. I'm trying to get a handle on this. I want to know what is the basis for this being more efficient. If you know that you can make it better.

I've thought the same VB... a month b4 I decided to go verticle, I bought a Growzilla hood.. still NIB. I wanted to use it, but>>

but one thing I remember from earlier in this thread is... the reflector also is/becomes a 'heat sink', holding heat while reflecting it. Now one is dealing with temperature differentials (in a cab/box).. verticle bulb runs cooler, temp-wise.

 

[Marlo]

? A reflector is very efficient. Flat white reflects 95 to 98% of light.

I'm not sure where you found this info, but this is simply not true.
When using a reflector, the light intensity is greatly reduced when it bounces off the reflector and redirected back towards the plants. Light has a longer distance to travel, lowering the intenstity. Direct light will always be stronger.

Think about it this way.
A pitcher throws a baseball directly to a catcher @ 100 mph. Now if the same pitcher bounces the same baseball off a wall @ 100 mph, the speed will be reduced before it gets to the catcher. It will get there, but the direct path is more efficient. Your light and reflector work the same way.

one thing I remember from earlier in this thread is... the reflector also is/becomes a 'heat sink', holding heat while reflecting it.

Very true.



MARLO

 

[Shcrews]

This is very interesting but now it's time for the reaaallllyy stupid questions. Why is vert better? Is it because less light is wasted on reflectors? A reflector is very efficient.....

here is your answer, i guess you missed it in the very first post of this thread?

look at the diagram, and if you don't understand why vert is better then you my friend need to go back to highschool geometry..

Flat white reflects 95 to 98% of light. Are your grows 5% better? 10%? 15%? 20%? What increase do you get from vert with the same lights and strains but vert instead of horizontal?

apparently they are 135% better....

 

[SCROG McDuck]

Look deeper friend...

Where do you get that netting, Bblhead?

 

[bobblehead]

lowes or home depot... With the chicken wire, rabbit fencing, etc... It's called poultry netting. I'm moved on to rabbit fencing, b/c my plants are bigger...