Indoor Vertical Grow Systems 101

[redspaghetti]

I do believe Vertical is the way to go if you're not growing out door

Everyday i try and try to convince people to give vert a go but it seem like majority still love them hoods, think like you about to start all over again but this time your yield will increase in a shorter time vs using the hood.

cheers,
red.

 

[MyGreenToe]

Thanks Red! I'm always trying to convert folks! Vertical is the way.


I just edited the V-SCROG section to be more relevant to how folks are doing things now. I believe I have rewritten every section now, except the commercial unit section. It's next.

 

[Shcrews]

here's something i noticed , from my 6k vert thread..

when stacking cooltubes:


"i have been having issues with the stacked suntubes falling. the heat from the lights melted some of the glue and they slipped a bit, plus the neoprene collars that hold the tubes together have slipped a couple times. i rigged everything with twine so it is secure but the rooms are too overgrown to re-do the lights at this point. lesson learned."

 

[MyGreenToe]

Schrews:
The folks at Octagon Hydroponics offer their own made for verticals cooltube system that should be superior to using regular cooltubes. Check it out:

Here's the link:
http://www.octagonhydroponics.com/grow-lighting-vertical-systems.html

 

[DHF]

Those veritubes are nice and have been around for a while MGT.......They were more expensive when they came out than their prices now , but still.......$1000 for 3 or 4 light setup`s insane IMO.....without bulbs and ballasts as well........PLUS the equipment to vent/cool em with......So......with decent ballasts , bulbs , and exhaust fans with ducting , you`re lookin at in the neighborhood of 2250-2500 bucks before startup just for lights...again.....insane.......but....... I`m a tightass and a DIY`er....These things are perfect for guys with deep pockets and lil grow knowledge........or they would`nt exist......

The 3 light 1000 watter is $765 , and the 4 light`s 899 PLUS shipping and comes with the socket boxes inside the tubes and that`s it.......You`re still gonna have all 3 cordsets hangin out of the units on 3 or 4 levels for something to be done with em ta get em out of the plants/lights way ......

I had 3 outlet boxes with blank covers and mogul sockets for the cordsets , and had jackchain from ceiling to floor on 2 sides of the bare bulbs mounted to the outlet boxes on top of each other ta hold em up and in place with the cordset wires ziptied to the jackchain on 1 side , run up and across the ceilings then out of the rooms with ballasts on the outsides ......

Muffin fan directly underneath the 3-600`s creating a "column of air" with exhaust scrubber combo above suckin heat and stank outta the rooms twice per minute.......A/C`s did kick on a lil bit in deep summer ,but not much.......

Bare bulbs rule .......with wall fans blowin in all opposite corners above and below the plants creating a vortex of circulating air , ambient temps rarely got over 78-82 degrees lights on..........A/C`s were set ta come on at 85 ........

Lumenloss in cooltubes(or for that matter ANY air-cooled reflector) has been documented for yrs , and try and clean them bitches on a regular cycle basis to keep as much light as possible gettin thru to the plants......

If you can`t keep bare bulbs cool with a dialed environment , you`re doin somethin wrong.........Fuckabuncha glass enclosures IME......

Never understood why Doubled`s used them thangs hangin all down and across his rooms in the first place other than not runnin adequate A/C......Cheapin out on controlled environment and losin light from cooltubes even if yas live in Canada where it`s cool most of the yr is wrong IMO ..........

All that shit hangin down and around all the plants connected with ductwork just absorbed and stole light that should`ve been intended for the plants.........

Seen Krusty run warehouses full of bare bulbs in Canada , CO2 with adequate A/C and air circulation for the win and every plant 3 lbs and over....btw .Big plants like Doubled`s G-13 and Krusty`s BC Big Bud are genetic for the most part......some will get that big in reasonable time.........most won`t without major vegtime.....

50/50 hybrids are best cuz it takes more indica dominant plants longer to get to the same size vegwise , and then once the lights are flipped there`s little to no stretch as to where our krusty plants always doubled and tripled in height as well as width through 4th week in flower.........then they backed up , stopped buildin rootmass and foliage and started the swellage process........

Small plants with increased plant numbers is the way for yield , butchas gotta be a criminal ta do it......Lotta tradeoffs and reasons for growin big plants and only a few of em , or growin buncha budsicles in the same sq/cu ftg with intolerable plant numbers for legal grows.......

Heathie`s setups run over 2gpw`s cuz of increased plant numbers around minimal light.......ain`t rocket science.....Plant numbers dictate yield.......period.........

No veg straight from rooted cut and flipped will win the race every time , butchas gotta pack em in as tight as yas can without em competin for light or environment.......

His first vertical rack setup did 1.53 gpw`s with 2-600s and well over 80 plants in a 4 x 6 area with 6.5' ceilings........

Many waysta skin a mule........cooltubes not required......Use em if yas got more light and heat than your a/c and airflow can control , but IME the environment should take care of itself without addin more equipment and power draw on the panel , but that`s just me......I live in Hell........

Peace......DHF............

 

[MyGreenToe]

DHF I feel you. I don't understand why DoubleD's took what was a simple efficient system(Heath's tree setup), and made it into an overly expensive way overbuilt thing with cooltubes, CO2, chillers and air pumps as mandatory. Maybe he owns a hydro shop lol.

I fully agree people should be running these vertical bulbs bare. I plan to run my bulbs bare, but I understand some folks just won't do it, or can't in really tight spaces. Cooltubes work, but if someone is having problems with the standard cooltubes they could just get the individual meant for vertical cooltube section from octagon, and build the rest themselves. They are certainly charging way too much for that vertical cooltube system, but the component price for one tube isn't too bad. Excellent point about cleaning. If you want your tube to rob you of the least lumens possible, you better keep it sparkling clean! Inside and out! Or just don't run them.

 

[MyGreenToe]

DHF:
How did you go about implementing the AC and normal ventilation side by side. At 2 exchanges per minute, it seems like any work an AC unit did would be out the door as quick as it was made. I have been thinking alot about this, since in my climate the AC is only necessary 3 moths of the year, so long as I can utilize outside air the rest of the time. I'm just interested how you made the two systems work together without fighting each other. I want to go growtronix with my rooms eventually(which will make this really easy to implement), but I wont be able to do that until after my 2nd tree harvest. Interested in hearing your ideas for the meantime...

 

[DHF]

MGT..........I always said that Doubled`s setup was an accident waiting to happen over at HG , but it could be done with dialage.....He learned from Heath and hounded his ass for months till it was dialed and then HG went down......... but......

Outta nowhere at the farm awhile later here comes Doubled`s with a "new setup" and his own "sub-forum" after Heath gettin banned .......Smelled like Heath`s Aquafarm "high flow" RDWC in bigger bottom containers with larger drainpipe but I digress.....

It was still a high maintenance setup like krusty buckets , just different with bigger bottom containers with quick disconnect fittings Doubled`s said needed to be impemented for fast takedown and re-install to the next location for mobility and re-setup ........then.........all of a sudden outta nowhere........He`s a medical caregiver and provider with all the expensive equipment needed for the previous setups seeming redundant......

Where is he as we speak , and why ain`t the souped up setup on the market 6 months ago as was told last yr .........

Ya`ll don`t take no wooden nickels here on the interwebs , but rather learn howta build yer own shit............

Peace.....DHF.......

Edit: MGT.......I had lung rooms where all the air got recirculated back into the grow areas........IOW.......built a 32 ' wall across the basement walls and then put the flip rooms inside/behind that......2 rooms around 8 x8 inside an area of like 12 by 32 +/-.......easier to control the climate in the lung rooms without heat from the lights affecting the air and let it be constantly circulated into and out of the rooms .......major extraction twice per minute took care of the environment.....Just a clone/mom/pre-veg cab in the rest of the area outside the flip rooms........

Sorry I didn`t make that clear since exhausting conditioned air would seem to defeat the purpose huh ?........still had dehuey`s on humidistat`s , and a/c`s on thermostats with auto restart should power outages occur inside the rooms for guaranteed dialed conditions in deep summer when power consumption`s so high and brownouts occur out of nowhere..................

 

[coloradomedical]

Very informative. A+ for this thread.

 

[nvthis]

Nice thread. Never done vert, but I do have a question..

While looking at this pattern of a 4 plant grow:

xox
oxo
xox

the thought came to mind.. If you drew lines through this (like a tic tac toe board)..

x I 0 I x
--I--I--
0 I x I 0
--I--I--
x I 0 I x

and then counted the the sides of the plant on each line that was in contact with direct light the sum would be 12..

If you used this configuration:

0 I x I 0
--I--I--
x I 0 I x
--I--I--
0 I x I 0

the sum would also be 12. I am completely non-vert-savvy, but is there any reason to think the outcome would not be the same using four lights instead of five?

 

[MyGreenToe]

Nice thread. Never done vert, but I do have a question..

While looking at this pattern of a 4 plant grow:

xox
oxo
xox

the thought came to mind.. If you drew lines through this (like a tic tac toe board)..

x I 0 I x
--I--I--
0 I x I 0
--I--I--
x I 0 I x

and then counted the the sides of the plant on each line that was in contact with direct light the sum would be 12..

If you used this configuration:

0 I x I 0
--I--I--
x I 0 I x
--I--I--
0 I x I 0

the sum would also be 12. I am completely non-vert-savvy, but is there any reason to think the outcome would not be the same using four lights instead of five?

With the standard configuration, each plant gets the exact same 3 sides coverage of light.
With your configuration, the four outer plants recieve 2 sides of light, while the center plant has 4 sides of light. So you'll have a giant bush in the middle with 4 smaller bushes outside. This isnt good since you really have to use every bit of space you can with these tree grows. If your inside tree is the right size, the outer ones will be too small, and the opposite is also true. If you veg long enough that the outside trees fill your space, the inner tree will end up overgrowing the space.
With large grows like this, consistency is key to maximizing efficiency. The five lamp, four tree configuration has stood the test of time. Save yourself the headache of trying to reinvent the wheel, and just focus on dialing in the specifics of your grow.

 

[DHF]

Yessir.......The ultimate tree area with least amount of light and expense is the 4 plant , 5 light setup in a 10 x 10......guaranteed......These rooms had 2 ton/24000 btu wall banger a/c`s through the wall with the heat/exhaust outside the rooms..........

Active intakes and exhausts out through scrubbers on thermostats , speed controllers , and timers that ran mostly during lights off to get rid of excess humidity and CO2 the plants shit out that they didn`t use during lights on/photosynthesis.......

Rocked it at several locations for over 8 yrs with a crazy ass krusty bucket system as well makin it pretty damn hard ta dial too , but....it can be done......

My outside/corner lights were only 600`s , with 1000 watt MH bulbs hangin lower in the middles , but once dialed I pumped out 10 lb rooms EVERY run , 4 times a yr at first , and then staggered plantings a month or so apart and perpetual harveys every 5 weeks thereabouts..........

All walls and ceilings covered in reflectix for the win........MGT.......growin in "cellars" as Heathie calls it , I`ve never seen him run a/c`s and dehueys for environment control , but rather has always used major air-exchange with active intakes and bigger exhaust fans out through scrubbers for a minimum of exchanging the rooms air twice per minute.......

Also never saw his ambient temps inside his rooms higher than 80 degrees F , and RH round 50%.........I`ve never been that lucky livin in Hell , so I hadta implement all the bells and whistles it took ta keep RH and room temps optimized all the way thru harvey.......

As far as the "lung room" outside the flip rooms where the ballasts and clone/mom/preveg cabs were kept , it only made sense to condition the air and relative humidity "outside" the rooms and just have it constantly pumped and dumped in and out of the grow areas to keep all the damn a/c`s and dehuey`s "inside the rooms" from runnin 24/7 come late bloomage ok ?...................

I`ve learned a lot in over 15 yrs of growin inside , and 12 more outside before that , fucked up more than most , and murdered 1000`s of plants in the pursuit of Nirvana and dialed setups.........but.......

Takes the fuckin up ta know where yas went wrong last time....the hard lessons are the best ones..........I tryta help folks keep from makin mistakes I made over the yrs cuz this lil hobby of ours ain`t cheap ya know ?..........

Anything I can do ta help just holler.........

Peace.......DHF.................

 

[Marlo]

This thread has really taken off since I was in here last!

Since this information has helped me so much over the past few years, I'd be more than happy to share my experiences....



I originally started by simply tossing my reflector and hanging my light from the top of my DR-80 tent

I was lucky enough to get 8 girls from this grow. The tent could fit 9 3 gallon pots perfectly. I took the middle pot out and stuck a 10" fan in the center blowing straight up into the bulb.

You can see here, I used bamboo stakes and pipe cleaners to train the plants away from the light.

The exhaust fan at the top of the tent....

About 70 days later I was left with this.....

I'm still amazed at how well this grow went. No temp issues at all. I've been hooked on vert ever since.






MARLO

 

[dramamine]

....Hey Marlo-- very nice overview of your initial vert run. This thread is a great resource for vert growing. Big thanks MGT!

 

[MyGreenToe]

DHF thanks for the detailed reply. I've been working on a parts list for a completely DIY tree setup that's affordable and built with parts available everywhere, based on Heath's designs. I love his setups, but we can't get the aquafarms stateside. We also don't have the compression fitting pvc parts available that he uses to make things easy to tear down. When I move(in just over 5 months now), I plan to completely document everything I build here on IC. I'd like to help show people they can grow trees without making an enormous investment in pre-configured equipment. There are alot of creative ideas out there in tree growing now. The medical explosion in the US has really prompted alot more people to grow giant girls inside. I can't wait to join the crowd!

Marlo:
Nice pics man! Clearly you caught the vertical bug. Hard to go back to hoods once you remove them, eh?

 

[DHF]

Closest you`ll come to quick teardowns is "uniseals" MGT........It`s best to use square containers with em , cuz I`ve heard of leaks in round buckets.......

I always hard plumbed my shit with cpvc and thru hull fittings......When it came time ta tear down and move a yr or so later , I just cut the feed and drain lines and glued em back together at the next locations using couplings........simple.......babyshit........

There`s places ta get containers and do DIY "Heathie" aquafarm type setups Bro........Get moved and settled in , and we`ll work yas up the caddilac tree growin system....... Even if yas ran 5-1000 watters in the X pattern , a 2 ton/24000 btu wall-banger a/c thru the wall would be plenty to keep ambient temps within reason......

Anyways.....take care and keep rockin da vert boys......

Peace.....DHF...............

 

[MyGreenToe]

You nailed it DHF. I'm goin with the uniseals. They are actually made to work in curved and flat surfaces, not sure what you might have heard, but I think they are really reliable. I can see how poorly drilled holes would be a problem though. The rubber fittings really need a clean smooth mating surface.

As to my buckets, I can't come up with a more affordable or durable option than 20 gallon Brute bottoms, with a 5 gallon bucket as the pot. Seems like the perfect size for the 2-4 lb-ers, once I get things dialed in.

Thanks for the continuing support bro. Now if we could just get Heath to make a reappearance and grace the thread with some tips.

 

[whodair]

Wipe those bare bulbs when they're cool ... They get kinda dusty too with the fan blowing stuff on them !!!

 

[DHF]

Excellent advice Whodair......Always used window cleaner on my bare bulbs once a week......Ya`ll just don`t know.........OCD ain`t the word for my pore old ass.......I`m worse.......

You could eat off the floors and everything coming into or out of the rooms was pre-filtered and blasted in and out.......

And yeah........you`re prolly right about the round buckets leaking with uniseals with improper hole drillage , but I was only cautioning you for future checkpoints as in weak links in the chain..........

Everywhere anything can leak , they will........Murphy`s law.....IME........

I`m sure you`ll rock it MGT.....

Good luck Bro...DHF................

 

[MyGreenToe]

Oh I fully expect to have leaks when I fill it with water the first time to test. It just wouldnt be right if it worked the first try without leaks. I am reasonably sure I can rely on those uniseals in a curved wall. They save so much money over traditional bulkheads I'm willing to take my chances. We'll see if it bites me in the ass in the end lol!