Indoor tropical sativa grow lighting questions

[walkabout]

Hello everyone,

So I don't post much, more of just a read and learn kinda guy but I cannot find the answers I am looking for anywhere. Considering this seems to be the most knowledgable cannabis forum I visit I am hoping you guys can help me out!

Long story short, I am growing tropical equatorial landrace sativa's in a "micro" setup. Looking at growing them sog style from clones in a 2'x2'x5' area. Restricting pot size to keep them somewhat manageable along with my knowledge of bonsai techniques and plant training methods. BUT for lighting I have yet to find a definitive answer. As equatorial species, one would assume these plants will favor a greater light intensity. I have a 250w HPS for the space but I am wondering, 1. Will this be enough wattage? 2. Would these plants benefit from a mixed spectrum? As in would it be beneficial to throw in a 70w MH or some blue spectrum t5's?

The strains are specifically:

Durban Punch - Tropical Seeds
Destroyer - Cannabiogen
Queen Mother - Original Delicatessen
Zamaldelica - Ace
Green Haze - Ace
Double Thai - Ace
Double Jam - Underground Seeds Collective

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. this is posted in another forum, but considering the knowledge/experience of the members of this forum and the fact that almost half my strains are ace genetics, I figured this would be an exceptional forum to gather some knowledge in

 

[Dr.King]

Hello everyone,

So I don't post much, more of just a read and learn kinda guy but I cannot find the answers I am looking for anywhere. Considering this seems to be the most knowledgable cannabis forum I visit I am hoping you guys can help me out!

Long story short, I am growing tropical equatorial landrace sativa's in a "micro" setup. Looking at growing them sog style from clones in a 2'x2'x5' area. Restricting pot size to keep them somewhat manageable along with my knowledge of bonsai techniques and plant training methods. BUT for lighting I have yet to find a definitive answer. As equatorial species, one would assume these plants will favor a greater light intensity. I have a 250w HPS for the space but I am wondering, 1. Will this be enough wattage? 2. Would these plants benefit from a mixed spectrum? As in would it be beneficial to throw in a 70w MH or some blue spectrum t5's?

The strains are specifically:

Durban Punch - Tropical Seeds
Destroyer - Cannabiogen
Queen Mother - Original Delicatessen
Zamaldelica - Ace
Green Haze - Ace
Double Thai - Ace
Double Jam - Underground Seeds Collective

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. this is posted in another forum, but considering the knowledge/experience of the members of this forum and the fact that almost half my strains are ace genetics, I figured this would be an exceptional forum to gather some knowledge in

Greetings and glad you are interested in growing Sativas. I have really enjoyed growing them myself. First things first, you mentioned clones. You have clones already or are planing to start cloning once you grow your first set? After this I would need to know if you plan to veg them or not and if so how long. Growing some of Aces strains such as Green Haze and Double Thai can only be grown from straight 12/12 if you are restricted to five foot of vert grow space. Even then in very small pots they tend to get big. 250w is plenty for growing them it just depends on how many are you trying to run. Blue spectrum does increase the potency of Sativas which is why I like Led lights.

I've heard Destroyer and Zamaldelica both do very well in Sog type grow. One could fit a lot of single colas of these together. Here is a photo of my current Green haze. She is in 2 gallons of pure coco under 400w HPS-180w Led-100w Blue spectrum light(this one sits right above my Sativas) 5'x5x7' tent. She is 12/12 and takes up atleast 1/4th of the tent. You can see I had to start to lst her. She's already growing over 6 foot tall and only 3 months in with 2-3 months left. Still stretching as well. Hope this helps you. Lots of great growers on this forum that will provide helpful information, no worries .

 

[nodestar]

I recommend the 315w CMH from Philips.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215&page=455

I wouldn't read the whole thread. Just the last 20 pages or so. If you can DIY 220v they can be had for $300 in the U.S. It will require some work and research on your part though.

Obviously do what you're comfortable with but I also recommend Vert. IMO it's less work when you're growing unwieldy tropical sativa's. You do all the training in Veg and can let it go in Flower. Vert also helps the problems that come from extreme sativa stretching if you plan and setup correctly. It also doesn't matter if one plant is taller than the one next to it. So more friendly for running multiple strains at the same time. Just overall more hassle in Veg but less hassle in Flower.

 

[Illuminate]

I think vert in a 2x2 will be too much maybe? I grew all sorts in a fridge cabinet of similar size for years under a 250w hps, looking back id have used a MH bulb which is better for leggy girls. Ventilation is key, air cooled will be cooler obviously.

 

[nodestar]

I think vert in a 2x2 will be too much maybe? I grew all sorts in a fridge cabinet of similar size for years under a 250w hps, looking back id have used a MH bulb which is better for leggy girls. Ventilation is key, air cooled will be cooler obviously.

I think it'll be fine but it all depends on setup. You can run screens along the walls and tie the plants to fill in. Should be plenty of space to avoid bleaching. Heat management is all in the setup.

It's just an option I was throwing out there. I only suggest it because I find it easier than trying to maintain scrog style with unwieldy Sativas. Even more so if you're running multiple strains/ running new untested strains.

 

[Cannabisso]

Nice selection of strains.

 

[walkabout]

Greetings and glad you are interested in growing Sativas. I have really enjoyed growing them myself. First things first, you mentioned clones. You have clones already or are planing to start cloning once you grow your first set? After this I would need to know if you plan to veg them or not and if so how long. Growing some of Aces strains such as Green Haze and Double Thai can only be grown from straight 12/12 if you are restricted to five foot of vert grow space. Even then in very small pots they tend to get big. 250w is plenty for growing them it just depends on how many are you trying to run. Blue spectrum does increase the potency of Sativas which is why I like Led lights.

I've heard Destroyer and Zamaldelica both do very well in Sog type grow. One could fit a lot of single colas of these together. Here is a photo of my current Green haze. She is in 2 gallons of pure coco under 400w HPS-180w Led-100w Blue spectrum light(this one sits right above my Sativas) 5'x5x7' tent. She is 12/12 and takes up atleast 1/4th of the tent. You can see I had to start to lst her. She's already growing over 6 foot tall and only 3 months in with 2-3 months left. Still stretching as well. Hope this helps you. Lots of great growers on this forum that will provide helpful information, no worries .

Hey everyone, thanks for the great advice so far! In regards to your post Dr. King, I plan on vegging these and gathering clones from the seed plants. Two clones from each, one to flower and one to keep as a mother. From there the clones will be placed directly into flower under 11/13. As for how these are gonna be run, here is the overall plan...bear with me here haha

So I intend to start 4-5 plants of each strain, one strain at a time, and grab clones from them. So 8-10 clones and seed plants disposed of. Half the clones go to a separate area to remain in a vegetative state while other half go into flower. Hopefully there is a male in there to make seeds in case I lose the future mother but regardless the best female will be kept as my mother. At this point I move on to 4-5 seeds of the next strain and repeat the process. I realize this will take years haha so if you're at the point where you're like this guy doesn't have a clue, trust me I understand the undertaking lol. Anyhow after all the strains have been run I will have the best females from each of the runs at which point I will be able to start growing all of them together in a perpetual harvest setup.

 

[walkabout]

As for vert lighting, I don't know much about it but from what I have seen, isn't it just the bare bulb hanging vertically amongst the plants? I plan to air cool the HPS for temp control...with a vert setup you lose the ability to air cool no? Sorry if I sound like a moron but I've never really checked out vert lighting....some research must be done haha

 

[nodestar]

As for vert lighting, I don't know much about it but from what I have seen, isn't it just the bare bulb hanging vertically amongst the plants? I plan to air cool the HPS for temp control...with a vert setup you lose the ability to air cool no? Sorry if I sound like a moron but I've never really checked out vert lighting....some research must be done haha

You hang the bare bulb or mount it to a DIY PVC stand or both for more coverage.

http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-HT-900-TurboForce-Fan/dp/B001R1RXUG/ref=zg_bs_3737601_1

Place one of these $15 fans beneath the bare bulb. Put the fan on it's lowest setting. It gently blows over the bulb taking the hot air up away from the bulb and plants where it's sucked out by your outgoing ventilation system. You don't put the fan on a higher setting because then it just circulates the hot air all over the room rather than gently and steadily helping the hot air to rise up. That's the basic theory.

You could also do a vert cool tube if your situation required it. But it wouldn't be necessary for most people.

 

[nodestar]

You can look through this thread for Vert idea's.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=206397

And this one for a setup which I assume to be similar to your own.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=294813&page=2

Basically, build PVC frames and attach plastic/metal netting to them. Line the walls. Tie plants to them. Or, mount the netting directly to the walls and place your plants around the walls tied to the netting. Hand bulb with fan under it. Vent air from the top. Very simple. The pictures in the thread will give you ideas of what I mean. You can get netting from Home Depo etc. They don't normally have the orange plastic type you'll see in allot of pictures but they have a green version that's the same. Or you can just use string. It doesn't matter.

 

[walkabout]

Wow that is actually really cool, Im definitely gonna put some time into reading that one. With these types of sativas is the general consensus that vertical lighting is preferred? Also in regards to the suggestion of the addition of LED lighting, from my reading I was under the impression that LED lighting was great as far as vegetative growth goes but has yet to be proven in flowering...any opinions on this? Also would vert lighting in a space this size be better than rigging up the 250hps and say a 70w MH or two horizontally above the canopy, I am imagining some sort of DIY air cooled reflector that allows two or three bulbs to be placed next to each other...any negatives to this? In my head this is awesome but I am wondering if these bulbs in such a close proximity would cause problems?

 

[nodestar]

I don't think there is a consensus on anything to do with lighting. It's all about your personal preferences and the setup you have to work with. Nothing is objectively best. It's all what's best for you.

LED is great for Veg and Flower. It's drawback is it's high initial cost. That's simplifying a very complex subject though. Some people champion LED. Some hate it.

You don't want to put more than one bulb in a single reflector unless the reflector is designed for it. Otherwise you get "Restrike".

"Restrike is when an emitted photon reflects off of a surface and strikes the lamp from the outside, either after the first 'bounce' off the surface, or like a ping-pong ball, bouncing around inside the reflector striking the lamp multiple times. I'm not sure why it's called "restrike," but that's what it means." - Beta Test Team
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215&page=454

I wouldn't recommend mixing lighting(unless you already have the lights) or doing Horizontal and Vertical combo's. Once again unless you already have the lights and everything you would have to buy. People do it and they do it successfully. The reason I wouldn't personally do it is because what you gain in more/better light/distribution you lose in simplicity. Simplicity always = less long term work. You may be fine with extra work at first but fast forward a few months and unnecessary work can make a hobby turn into a chore.

On that note. Most people don't keep the same setup for years and years. Bulbs and Ballast die and then it's time to try new stuff. Most hobby growers buy new stuff long before the old stuff wears out. It's part of the fun. Trying new things etc. With that in mind don't feel like you have to get it perfect the first time. Use what you have, save money, and learn through trial and error.

 

[walkabout]

Interesting stuff here. Like I said, I have the HPS and I already have the t5's from herb growing and keeping bonsai's alive in the winter so it wouldn't be an additional expenditure in that aspect. You bring up a very good point with the simplicity of the system as this is going to be a lifelong venture starting simple and improving as I go does sound best. So with that said, keeping it as simple as possible and looking for quality of flower over yield, do we think that the 250w HPS plus ~100w of supplemental side lighting from the t5's blue spectrum is enough light intensity for 4-5 of these tropical ladies in this sized space?

 

[walkabout]

Actually one more question to add here, my buddy has a 90w LED ufo light in the blue spectrum he isn't using. Would this be preferable to the t5's? Would it be good to use both as supplemental lighting? Or am I just overthinking this still haha?

 

[waveguide]

if i were given a 2x2x5' space, i'd wish for a 250w HPS first and chuck in maybe two 26w blue CFLs, maybe one of them would be a UV-B "desert" reptile bulb. ought to be enough to make fat colas. haven't used T5s but sure they'd be fine.

beyond that, my experience is that some sats will just stretch unmanageably, so my strategy would be accepting a mess until getting to know how to address each strain.

 

[walkabout]

if i were given a 2x2x5' space, i'd wish for a 250w HPS first and chuck in maybe two 26w blue CFLs, maybe one of them would be a UV-B "desert" reptile bulb. ought to be enough to make fat colas. haven't used T5s but sure they'd be fine.

beyond that, my experience is that some sats will just stretch unmanageably, so my strategy would be accepting a mess until getting to know how to address each strain.

Haha yea I have excepted the fact that it is going to be a mess till I get it dialed in, which is why I want to keep everything else as neat and out of the way as possible...I also thought about a UV-b reptile bulb, but aren't they designed to put off excess heat? I can't imagine that would be beneficial with the space constraints. That said, I have never had a lizard or anything so the heat given off may be negligible...

 

[Terpene]

The 250 should work fine, supplemental light works if you want to do it but I doubt its needed. I veg under CFLs and flower under cfl / led and the plants do fine. Waldgiest has been putting up some very nice SOG style grows, his malawi clone run comes to mind.

 

[walkabout]

I love what Waldgiest is doing but I can't figure out what he flowers under! I know he veg's with the 100w cdm but I can't figure out his flowering set up....a lot of info in that thread though so I'm sure I'm just missing it

 

[genedigger]

i saw a grow in a space this big with 2 t5s one on top and one against wall.there were 4 bulbs in each 2 blue an 2 red.sour diesel x strawberry cough,trainwreck,northern lights,m.o.b.,white diesel,and a couple other strains were run in this setup.every strain yielded between 1 and 3 oz.m.o.b. topped the list.they can def be tied down and bent, twirled,and tweaked to fit if they stretch trainwreck needs this for sure.if your into the bonsai thing i bet you'll be good at your setup.my space is small that i use and i have some stretchy girls.i personally love it when they stretch i make them look crazy all bent around themselves and such.from my experience a lot of strains get tighter node spacing when they get bent even a pure sativa.ive had some that if i unfurled them from all the bending they would exceed 4 or 5 feet and i keep them bent so they stay around 1-1/2 to 2 feet.its a lot of time spent doing this and a lot of string and twisty ties.i bet you will have fun with it.

 

[yesum]

I use a Reptisun 10.0 uvb cfl, think it is 26 watts. It does not add a lot of heat and the effective range of light is no more than 10 to12 inches from bulb. I hang it vertical in middle of plants and move it up and down around 8 inches each time, so the light from the sides hits the plants all the way up and down. Also spin the plants so they get light on all sides equally. It is open to debate if uvb helps with potency much but it does change the cannabinoid profile a bit for sure. Turn it off when working in the tent to be safe imo.

I think a mh and more so a cmh bulb would do you better, can you just put a cmh in a hps ballast setup? 250 watts is plenty for such a small area. Get that light as close as you can without burning or stunting the plants.

I bend my stretchy plants over but then you have them going sideways and space problems in a small area, it works though. I would not go with a real small pot to control the vertical but I use soil so with other methods you can do better with small pots.

Waldgeist has a zigzag bending method you should look at. Does not give all the horizontal overhang that standard bending does. You can start pinching the stems or supercropping in veg and thru flower to help control the stretch some, I still have to either bend the plant over or top it if it is a real stretcher. 3x or more. I never top any plants as I hate to lose the top colas and it stunts it a bit.

I have a 2x2x5' tent and use LED overhead and 3 55 watt pll fluoros with reflectors in the corners of the tent, they are vertical. So you can use the fluoros overhead or sideways to help add light as you see fit. They have a range of about 12 inches from the bulb for flowering to be effective.

So, you do not need a uvb light or fluoros of any kind but I think they might help. The hps is good to go but mh or better cmh is regarded as better by many. There are some hps that have a lot more blue in their spectrum as well, forget what they are called right now.