Illinois revised timelines and guidelines

[Julian]

sadly all this dragging of feet by the state has caused many people lots of pain. I know of at least 3 friends and family members who are battling cancer as we speak and refuse to use "illegal canabis" although it would be provided to them for free. im trying hard to convence them otherwise. and I know this is the totally wrong thread for this question but im going to ask anyway.

what is the best way to to prepare cannabis for oral consumtion? is the rick simpson iso oil taste good? or would simple edibles be better? I was thinking of making the iso oil and putting it in gel caps with small dogages working up to full doses, to help a certain person build a tolerance. they are in their 50s and have never used cannabis at all.

this will be a cancer treatment not just for pain. so rick simpson recommends 2 one gram doses a day over the course of 2 to 3 months. and I think a smaller maintinece dose for at least 2 years would be a good idea

I know several who fit that description.....

1-2 grams a day for 60-90 days started low end and worked up as high as possible I believe is the schedule....beginning with 1/10th gram at a time+/-......anyone who has ever exceeded the concentrate(s) doses understands......(my hand's raised ....)

Lot of different ways to approach, lots of good threads as well....

Best method?.......as always.....whatever works the best for them... (The last several I have done it was merely in various oils, and told them dose by drops, wait a while...then determine if they want to increase based on tolerance/feel, etc....

 

[thatonedude]

im not concerened so much about their reaction on a mind altering scale. they cant get out of bed so, I want them taking big doses.

what is the saturation point?

 

[thatonedude]

they also have a prescription for adivan. so they have a backup plan for ay anxiety they might experience.\\

is isopropanol a good way to extract all available cannabinoids. or should I go with butane? or something else?

my mother has lung cancer and the doctors say ther is nothing they can do.

they will keep giving her radiation and chemo for as long as she can handle it, but they give her a 3 percent chance of living through the next year.

I have the vegative matter, I just want to know what I whould give mhy mother

 

[thatonedude]

I believe in this plant

 

[Julian]

I certainly understand.......but excessive dosing wouldn't be pleasant...(been there), and, there are endless threads which might of of specific and exact assistance, as this isn't something which can be answered in a paragraph....

A good starting point.

 

[Bababooey]

I highly doubt 150 of the 158 applicants included in their application "provided evidence" of $2MM escrow to state. (remember, this is on top of every other cost and expense)

We went through probably 2 dozen companies over a couple months, and as of Friday close of business September 19th, there were none granting such aside from 1.
.

Many of those 150 applications are multiple apps by a single entity. the rules allow you up to 3 cc's? some applicants are going to apply for even more than 3, that way they can pick and choose, if they are lucky enough to be approved for more licenses than they can actually hold. and i believe they said you only need to show the standard escrow amount (400k for disp, 2mil for cc) even if you have multiple apps (so apply for 5 cc's, still only need to show 2mil).

I suppose if street prices are markedly lower than mmj prices for similar quality, then many patients will have to choose between being legal or saving money.

The phoenix tears/rick simpson oil, im not sure but doesnt he use hexane for extraction? most people use a good quality multi refined butane, amazon carries cases of cheap but good brands.
i think he also recommended that patients dont undergo chemo or radiation during rso treatment, something about damaging the body so that the rso isnt as effective? that might be iffy for some people though.

 

[Julian]

Many of those 150 applications are multiple apps by a single entity. the rules allow you up to 3 cc's? some applicants are going to apply for even more than 3, that way they can pick and choose, if they are lucky enough to be approved for more licenses than they can actually hold. and i believe they said you only need to show the standard escrow amount (400k for disp, 2mil for cc) even if you have multiple apps (so apply for 5 cc's, still only need to show 2mil).

I'm not sure that is the case (if applying for several, only the single escrow amount). They do (on application) specifically link one to the other applications (dispo as well, my mind hasn't been on this since the 22nd ...)

I think this was touched on in town halls and elsewhere, but I would have advised against it. (This would mean one could "win" 3, but then lack the funds to execute......dont forget, all interests have to be part of application, so one could not introduce additional pecuniary interest (parties) after the approval.....That would seem the most logical reasonable argument to the single account covering multiple applications....

Note: Escrow for dispo not 400k. The 400/500k requirements for proof of financial ability, etc......which is absurd considering that's basically your app and lower end of security before anything else, let alone operating expenses, reserves, etc.....

(I think there would also be an issue using the 2MM as the 400/500 as well.....)

All of the above should be taken into consideration and frankly I hope endangers the position of those doing such (using 2MM to apply in 3 when would require 6...of course due to the amount of time and effort and compliance on behalf of the others.....

Much jmo of course, so....

I suppose if street prices are markedly lower than mmj prices for similar quality, then many patients will have to choose between being legal or saving money.

Not at all. If were me I would simply go the first time to obtain the proper called for packaging and then everything thereafter goes in the same and I would call it "the original batch" ..

Regardless.....not a very compassionate start to the program (talking wholesaling for 4k and retail at 500 per ....)

There are endless other opportunities throughout the nation (and world), and they continue to arise on a consistent basis...so....If were me?....IL?......would be nice....long term is beyond comprehension....but, so restrictive on many levels.....I've been discussing with many in IL past year the endless longer term alternatives, etc....

Changes this year in Industry (let alone last 2) just remarkable...

 

[Bababooey]

You know what, you are right about the 400k liquidity (500k for cc's) needs to be shown for EACH app.
That question was brought up at a town hall meeting but was not answered then, but was answered in the FAQ posted later.
im sure the applicants for licenses were aware of that, and didnt try to use the same accounts for different apps, otherwise they just wasted their application fees.

If most cc applicants arent getting 2mil surety bonds, then theyre putting up 2mil in escrow. all the cc applicants seem to be well-resourced, why is it so hard to believe that most of them are putting 2mil in escrow? the license fee alone is 200k, no ones applying for these things unless theyve got 7 figure backing. some of them might have 8 figure backing, like that one guy who plans to spend a mil just on LED lights for a 6K pound crop....

MMJ is all well and good but ill be convinced if the recreational marketplace in WA and CO spreads to other states. The feds could still shut those down, maybe the next pres in 2016 will.
i used to think govt would legalize when they needed the tax money, that was the case a bit with the real estate crash but now the economy's getting better so who knows what will happen, im hoping things get more progressive but it could be 2 steps forward, 1 step back type of progress...

 

[Julian]

You know what, you are right about the 400k liquidity (500k for cc's) needs to be shown for EACH app.
That question was brought up at a town hall meeting but was not answered then, but was answered in the FAQ posted later.
im sure the applicants for licenses were aware of that, and didnt try to use the same accounts for different apps, otherwise they just wasted their application fees.

And their energy, time, resources....(keep in mind what involved with cultivation app. vs. dispo.....such as full engineered prints, architectural, MEP, etc.....)

I think there are many that missed more than they think.....I read quite a bit (and heard as well) of people in line manually reacting with a marker.......

Sounds fine..last minute work......until one remembers those very same redacted have to be reflected in the digital version as well....(and if their digital version was redacted and fine, then why didn't they simply just print that for the hard copy.....)

We had do do quite a bit of last minute work like that as well, so, well versed....(Dispo called for photocopy of check in addenda, so, 22nd, had to stop for check, photocopy, insert into unredacted digital, then redact, scan/pdf, then insert into the redacted digital as well as hard copy, etc...

Having gone through both processes extensively, intimately knowing processes (hard copy, digitals, redacted, unredacted, etc), I think there are many things missed....(engineered drawings had to be redacted as well, including accompanying specs....)

3 dispo districts zero applicants, including Rodgers Park.....(which I find amazing, as city....) and Dekalb....

If most cc applicants arent getting 2mil surety bonds, then theyre putting up 2mil in escrow. all the cc applicants seem to be well-resourced, why is it so hard to believe that most of them are putting 2mil in escrow? the license fee alone is 200k, no ones applying for these things unless theyve got 7 figure backing. some of them might have 8 figure backing, like that one guy who plans to spend a mil just on LED lights for a 6K pound crop....

Well, again, that would mean, according to stats, upwards of a quarter billion additional funds sitting in escrow as we speak for Il......highly unlikely......aside from the 8-9 figure groups and individuals (which represent a fraction of applicants), I have the feeling it was viewed as additional...

I make that statement having had an enormous amount of interaction with many potential individuals and groups over past year...

escrow is liquid....in addition to the many other aspects of the ops and process.....(proof of funds liquid, escrow liquid, many other costs associated, etc......)

No......50% or more of cultivation do not have the funds to complete this process.....

Front page of sun times today (online version)...2 city district apps (Randolph-Fulton market) haven't even had the approval for site...going to vote this week...and they have significant financial capabilities as well as political families, etc...(submitted app, went through process/prep.....site not even approved yet, may not be.....which is another angle as far as approvals go, how in depth will the reviewing be....

Lot of angles ....I doubt majority have all in line.....

MMJ is all well and good but ill be convinced if the recreational marketplace in WA and CO spreads to other states.

Oregon up for rec in November (30 days from now I believe), and been seeing and hearing AZ going for 2016 recreational, as well as under discussion many other areas....

The feds could still shut those down, maybe the next pres in 2016 will.
i used to think govt would legalize when they needed the tax money, that was the case a bit with the real estate crash but now the economy's getting better so who knows what will happen, im hoping things get more progressive but it could be 2 steps forward, 1 step back type of progress...

I dont believe that to be the case....I think we're now at the point of no return......half the nation medical, more pending (was a big year for medical....), recreational underway and more pending....

Nah.....we're there.......there has been more movement past 24 months than almost in past 20 years....I lost track already (just what dropped past year)....

Nevada reciprocity is a big one (industry wise).....

Reciprocal agreements for sales the one to watch ....(has been in discussion in many circles for years now......)

 

[Julian]

I should clarify.......

I'm not against "big money" per se....

I'm against those outside the business, the industry....those who really only are counting their 8-9 figure long term returns and the patient is/are a fleeting thought now and then....making their promises which they have to, not because they should.....ie: Only offering to serve others and the community as minimal as possible and only because it was a requirement to serve their purpose...penciling themselves in the same long term rewards while establishing compensation levels for those responsible for their success ridiculously low.....and the list goes on and on....

It's not the first time, nor will it be the last.....

I feel quite fortunate to have been a part of several which actually enabled freedom to establish "what should be".....a blank canvas if you will ....equipment, methods, staffing, compensation levels all our call(s)....and I'm very proud of what was able to be created and assembled due to such freedom.....

 

[Bababooey]

Yup, people have been taking advantage of other people since cavemen days, on through civilization and through the present. maybe in a 1000 years, in a post scarcity economy, we'll all treat each other as we would want to be treated.

from the articles ive been reading, it seems that most mmj businesses want to pay their employees 10-13 (or more) an hour, which is actually pretty decent in the rural areas where there arent as many jobs. should it be 13-15-20 an hour? maybe, but what if your business sucks and you have to cut expenses? sometimes being the boss means being the bad guy.

a quarter of a billion is a lot of money but is it that hard to believe there are 100-150 millionaires in IL (some perhaps from out of state as well, who used to live here) who are willing to put up a significant portion of their wealth in order to grow massive amounts of cannabis? successful small business owners, retired doctors (cause active ones cant be involved with a license), lawyers, retired corporate executives, rich farmers, maybe even minor celebrities (athlete, musician, etc) could have access to enough funds for a cc license. theres almost 13mil people in IL, most who live in chicago or the surrounding suburban sprawl. IL isnt california or ny, but it's not that podunk of a state that you cant scrape up 250mil from a couple hundred rich guys (or gals).

yeah, i bet a lot of people were doing some last minute changes to their apps while in line. its the state's fault, really, with the compressed app time, so maybe they should keep that in mind when reviewing these apps. i think if someone's app is critically deficient, they might give them a chance to correct it rather than just cashing their check and saying thanks for the money, moron.
But then again, they want to issue licenses by the end of the year, so they may not give an opportunity to amend or if they you'll have like a week. but you would know better than me, julian, if they ever contact you before december.

IL posted up the # of applicants on the mcpp site, broken down by districts.
Rogers Park has one applicant, its south township that has zero. lake township has 2 apps, lakeview township 3 apps. rogers park gets 1 disp, so i guess that app gets it by default if they meet the min req's. lake township gets 2 disps, so same with those 2 apps, lakeview gets 2 disps, so 2 out of 3 apps will get licenses.
in the near burbs the competition was much stiffer, with evanston niles counting for 15 apps but only 1 disp will be allocated.
dupage county had 23 apps but only 3 disps. 3/23 is better than 1/15, but still not good odds.

south township, the south side of chicago, had zero disp apps. i believe julian you said early on that the south side would be prime for disps? not the case. i did some research back when i was considering applying and the south side is rife with daycare centers. i didnt think it was to the extent that NO disp applications were made for south township, but there it is.

Dekalb and kankakee counties no disp apps. Well, if we had only KNOWN... those might not turn out to be good licenses so maybe theres a reason no one applied?

competition was a lot more even for the cc licenses. Even the most podunk districts had 3 apps or more. Cook county actually only had 9 apps (for two cc's!), district 5 (will kendall) had 14 apps for 1 cc, district 17 (lasalle putnam) had 13 apps for 1 cc. i was thinking if you went to the least populated areas of the state you would have a better chance, but even district 22 had 7 apps. your odds were actually better in cook county than deer hunting country and farmland.

wild, weird stuff

 

[Julian]

So we're at the funnibusiness already ...All media releases (per IL.) stated 158 cultivation, 211 dispo.....(I started checking when you mentioned the Rodgers Park......which all numbers stated zero....) But now it seems there are 159 cultivation and 214 dispo..... (Last 2 weeks.....158 and 211.......)

(They've known the totals since pretty much deadline....all we were waiting for was official breakdown per district......... Hmmmm .....)

Of course agreed on the financial breakdown....3rd largest metro in the country of course, I'm just doubting more the work and prep on behalf of all...(If's not so much the quarter billion mind you, but the combined billion....)

There are many things we shall see.....(I'm still surprised at the Dekalb.....and that it remained zero instead of increasing as well ...)

 

[Bababooey]

EDIT: i didnt catch the discrepancies either, and verified your 159 count on the cc apps, also verified that back in Sep the state said 158 apps had been received. I wonder if the media will catch on...
the slighty greater figures might be explained by allowing a few applicants to fix small but important deficiencies (maybe they didnt sign the check, or a certain page, etc). who knows though.

i think the recreational market in il is worth at least a billion, and maybe thats whats driving the investment, misguided as it is.
i think its pretty clear from the way the state made medical professionals keep their distance from mmj businesses that IL doesnt want the market to expand beyond strict medical need. you can thank that joker who opened up a cannabis clinic shortly after the law was passed, in wicker park? a doctor was involved in that clinic, and he underwent disciplinary proceedings on his medical license. ever since then the state has emphasized that prescribing authorities can have no financial relationship with any mmj business. theyve explicitly rejected the cali/wa/co model in that regard (prescribing physicians setting up shop in the back of dispensaries, physicians owning disps or getting kickbacks from them, etc) where its made very easy to get a recommendation.

Of course only 21 cc's are going to be licensed, even counting the 60 disp's you think a billion dollars will be invested in these businesses? that seems high to me.

i also wonder what theyre going to do about the districts no one applied for, if theyll allow existing applicants to apply for that, or what...

 

[Julian]

No,No,No......of course, your correct (21 cc, 60 dispo)....and not the total, but, I was getting the starting total by: 160 (rounded) cc, $2MM escrow, 320MM right there...assume 2MM per op, makes it 640, add another 2 per op (realistic when one takes into consideration additional such as licensing alone 225k, security can almost round that to 1MM, add on first year operating and can easily be 2MM op, 2MM additional....so, rounded it off to attracting $1B...

Recreational IL worth 1B?, I think most states long term rec would be, let alone 3rd largest metro in the world......but, it's a long way from rec, with a starting point of only 2k patients reported to date (yet to be clarified the breakdown of that number between patients and caregivers)....and a short list of ailments (sure to grow, of course)....

Dispo's there are many with quite the grand plan(s).....(some even going to 10k sq. ft . (a laugh more than appropriate)....as are those with low seven figure budgets......(addressed many past year how thousands of dispos nationwide and majority not over 1k sq. ft......throw on ridiculousness of many actually having licensed pharmacists as managers/sales, so.....(I'd sooner give 4 people a job for 50k with some growth there vs., a pharmacist(s) for 100k...which to the best of my understanding is a reasonable level for such...(Pharmacists...80-100k+/-...my understanding)...assuming 2 shifts there as many saying 9-9 7 days, etc)...so, just more nonsense....

Regarding physicians, I believe it was a physician who will be writing for patients, so.....depending on their practice and specialty area(s), it would indeed be reasonable and permitted to possess a financial interest if ones practice did not overlap....

I'm sure a lot will change as it evolves as well, so....I know one area that needs some work is the ability to sell ones operation....(there's some fine print there....hasn't been a priority and do not know how the final revisions addressed future sales (of operations), but, sure will get back around to that soon....working many things in many areas and states and that specific clause at this point in time not worthy of focus (yet)....

 

[Bababooey]

so youre thinking the average cc should be budgeted for 6mil? 2 mil first year operating, 2 mil first year setup, 2 mil for 'extras'? surely your app isnt budgeting that much for startup and first year costs? maybe that guy with the led lights for a 3 ton grow... 6 mil seems excessive to me for setup and first year operating costs for a cc. not that some of those applicants wont do it, but i doubt all of them have budgeted that much.

going back to the application, physicians who do not recommend can have interests in an mmj business, but cannot be an employee or on the board of directors. so they can be investors so long as they dont rec mmj to anyone, but still cant be an employee or on the board.

thats crazy to have a licensed pharmacist on staff. like triple your employee costs.

good point that the sale of one of these businesses is going to be tricky as well, the state might refuse to let the buyer take over the license for whatever reason, killing the sale. that has an effect on value.

also looming is irs rule 280e, disallowing mmj businesses from deducting any operating costs (only cost of product itself - cost of goods sold - can be deducted). this imposes an effective 50%-80% tax rate on mmj businesses who cannot deduct rent, utilities, wages, etc on their taxes.

 

[Julian]

I was running over that past couple days with someone (transfer of interests in any way, shape or form), and, a study of rules as several angles to that.....

Was just rounding p costs estimates...(You left out escrow, 2MM, 320 in itself), and, of course, how it all averages out (some people spoke of going as large as 30MM costs, and, if building ground up, not as quick and cheap and simple as some might think, especially when taking into consideration level of security called for...quite the costs in many cases...but, of course many (endless) ways to shave a budget...easily to see initial app prep, and any and all related aspects, then registration, then security could easily come to 1MM in itself, throw on escrow and your at 3MM before excavation/entering the building....throw on a higher end Apeks, Licor, GC and your already well on your way to next MM.....and haven;'t even started the build/build out, addressed 1st yr. operating, etc, so, even "smaller" could add up to quite a bit.....Staff in itself would dictate quite a bit..(hand trimmed or machine, again back to security, and then key personnel...even if principals are waiving to start, still key personnel whom should command significant compensation levels....(even if a graduated scale according to production, still a larger back end to be addressed..etc....)

 

[Bababooey]

i left out the 2mil escrow on purpose, seeing as how ideally that money should not be 'used' in the business (ie forfeited) other than being kept in account as hostage. looking at the app, looks like if you fail to open or operate, the bond/escrow is forfeited. If you voluntarily decide not to renew your license, you get it back.

id like to see that 30mil dollar cultivation center. that should be some start of the art greenhouses, rivaling anything they have in europe.

i would like to think that you could set up a cc for 1mil, maybe 1.5 mil (not counting the escrow amount, i know, i know). thats even including the 225k app and license fees. could you do a security system for 150k, buildout for 300k, leasing 200k, initial labor 150k, etc? or does everything have to be a million each? there are $100 sec cameras that meet the DOAgriculture specs and there are $600 ones also. backing up 6 months worth of video is a pain but you build a couple of pcs and stuff them full of 4 terabyte hard drives, that's gotta be cheaper than an alternate professional server solution. they want cloud or off site backup? instead of paying thousands of dollars a year for dozens of terabytes of cloud storage, get some extra hard drives for copies and keep them offsite.
it just seems that a lot of 'experts' say you have to spend enormous quantities of money or your operation is hopelessly amateur hour. which seem elitest to me, and classist.
so long as your setup meets the state's requirements it should be ok, whatever the amount you spent.

 

[Julian]

As always..........beware of the "experts" ......

$30MM for a new unproven program with minimal patient participation is the epitome of irresponsibility and foolishness, and laughable, and a further demonstration of a true understanding of virtually all associated aspects (jmo, of course).

Regarding expenses and such above. Keep in mind the fine print. Security would be a good example: It is not the cost per camera per se, but what about all other associated (doors, controlled and programmed access, and so on), then one has to take into consideration the further requirements of said system.....ie: it's not the 80 cameras and 30 doors, as much as the 4 miles of wiring laid for such. (rounding it up, off top of my head merely for example(s)....there is a costs difference between 20 cameras being run 50 ft. from source and 100 cameras being run up to 200 ft. from source, plus your access, plus as mentioned storage and rack for storage, then outside storage and swapping out. (Note: I'm not tech, but have spent a fair amount on/with tech and security and electrical and so on.....)

Many variables change the price tag....

The experts...........who else but an "expert(s)" could come up with 6k units 6 months following approval from LED's ......(I had an interesting conversation with a group of clients who were laymen but well versed on electrical, lighting, etc, who questioned is such even possible given the aspects of LED lighting....

If you work your way backwards (my approach, as always) from the size chosen, escrow excluded, price tag grows quite a bit.....(unless one is coming into existing structure and setting up a 100k, machine trimmed......easy to get out of hand.....but, again.....you have people going 100-500k sq. ft., 24/7 armed security and Brinks deliveries, which is foolish on more levels than can be addressed....

I stick with the above.....(far above)....well funded groups with no understanding of that which they enter, and no concern as to patients, modeling their numbers at 4k a unit wholesale, estimating production of 10-20k+ units annually....and that has not even touched on those utilizing assumptions of 10 acres (or more) of greenhouses and so on.......(again.....for 2k patients to date.......which will surely grow....but, as of yet, hasn't....)

Experts indeed...... ....

(I gave up addressing dispo applicant groups who didn't know what a "buyer" was...and eagerly await the product quality to be displayed........)

(I'm of course, limiting what I say on all matters........quite a bit....)

 

[Bababooey]

4 miles of wiring is like 8 grand. Coaxial is $200 per 1000 ft (4 grand for 20000 feet). 12-2 wire is $300 per 1000 feet so 6 grand for 4 miles. There, that's 8 miles of wiring for 10 thousand. Is labor to install it going to cost 6 figures? If so you need faster workers.
20 cameras sounds much more reasonable for a much more reasonable sized facility (5-8 thousand sf?). The rules didnt specify # of cameras, if you're putting 1 every 10 feet thats probably overkill.

if some of these businesses overbuild and lose their shirts, they'll lose their bonds/escrow if they have to close shop. but at least the next license holder will have a nice facility to start anew...

 

[Julian]

Well, again.....not so much one aspect, but all combined...(4 miles just an example.....cameras, but throw in wiring, distances, throw in doors and access, throw on top then the rack and storage, power to rack, and on and on and on, etc)....throw on any/all security op chooses to utilize...and haven't even gotten to op yet..licensing, insurance, operating, build, equipment, salaries, etc....and, again, on and on it goes.....

(Of course, we all know...operationally, all just a farce....100 people here (to start) who could run it single handed....Doesn't make "sense".....never did/never will....(per regs).....(I saw a mention of all staffing at one having color coded uniforms according to task/section....20 people working somewhere your not going to know each other? .....your not going to notice someone strange wandering around flower room? ....(especially given the nature and regions and areas of cc's, etc.......)

Easy to get out of hand (as above, cameras and security coverage) with any size...

Amusing thought though.....3MM watts LED's, people in their color coded uniforms, pushing out 1k units at a time of Power Plant, cut early, no flush, run through machines (all at the bargain basement price of only $4k a unit and $500 a z to the suffering patients)....

Sounds like a plan ....