if you had these items, how would you set them up?

[GrüneErd]

hey everyone, i've tried to set up my 400w hps in a 4'x2.5'x8' closet and can't get any temps lower than 90. so i resigned myself to CFL's, which after a few harvests i'm unhappy with, as i can't cool them properly either.
i have a 400w hps with a hood, the ducting collar is at the top of this hood above the bulb. i have a 340cfm panasonic whisper as well as a stanley blower.
my ballast can be wherever i need it to be.
I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO COOL THESE LIGHTS, WHERE TO EXHAUST, HOW TO INTAKE, all that.
i'm not stupid, i've been reading on here forever and know quite a bit, i just can't make what i've read work in my situation.
SO.

how would you set up this 400w in this amount of space with the panasonic whisper and stanley blower available? where would you exhaust/how, how would you intake?
i have to intake through a door that connects to my room, which is no problem.
cutting holes is no problem, i've already had to cut to exhaust the heat when i tried to make this work previously.
let's talk about this please?
peace

 

[GrüneErd]

here's some pics to get a feel for the space (and the failing cfl setup that has led me to cast aside all my thoughts on this and see what you people think):

this is the door that leads to my room and the light-sealing curtain pulled back to show the walk-in view.

my fan on a shelf at the top, currently sucking air from around the lights and exhausting into the wall (though not doin much it seems).

here's my (now) active intake via a hole in my door, ducting, and a stanley blower. barely keeping the plants i have now cool enough to survive.

and a top-right shot, where my moms and clones are, showing the exhaust ducting running up from the top of the lights.

and for your patience, some Lahaina buds on week 4, struggling in their new environment:

growing them isn't hard for me, it's all the details surrounding the machinery (lol) i gotta use.

 

[messn'n'gommin']

I am not sure of exactly what you're trying to do. As best I can tell, you're drawing air from the outside with a Stanley Blower (an active intake?) and exhausting with the Panasonic. Are you exhausting through the wall or are you exhausting into the wall itself?

It looks like you have a hell of a duct run with a lot of bends. While that is good for stealth, it sacrifices a lot of CFM to overcome the extra resistance. For an excellent explanation of ventilation, you might want to take a look at the following thread...

“Ventilation 101,” by redgreenry
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=112862

Hope this helps.

Namaste, mess

 

[GrüneErd]

yeah messn' i'm in that thread as well lol.
and sorry about the pics, they're apparently misleading from the original point of my thread.
i'm scrapping all that, and wanting to setup my 400w. i just don't know how to set it up and have it run cool, as i can't even cool these cfl's.
so i'd like a breakdown of how to do that (i know, but i HAVE used the search engine, read many threads) or better yet, how YOU (the reader) would set it up if this were going to be YOUR grow room.
the pics were to give you a better idea of what you'd be working with as far as the physical space.
hope that clears things up a bit.
i appreciate in advance any and all productive input.
peace

 

[GrüneErd]

forgot, messn' i didn't realize but i believe i AM just running it into the wall, not through. i just looked today and the space in the wall is very small, much smaller than i'd thought.
i guess the ceiling might be a better option, but it's textured and i really didn't wanna go there....but i'll do what i gotta do. i'd have to look, but generally isn't there much more space to exhaust into in a ceiling? i think my attic is above it.
bear with me folks, i just wanna get my buds big and know you guys are the ones to go to for any help.
peace

 

[guest 77721]

I agree with mess'n, it appears you are going into the wall with no clear air path. From my calculations, you're getting about 50 CFM effective airflow.

Have you tried just ducting into the room just to see how the airflow works without venting into the wall?

If you can run the exhaust unrestricted there is lot's of airflow available from the 320CFM whisper fan. By the cooling chart you should be running 3*F above ambient.

 

[Philosophelon]

Hello there, GrüneErd! Ventilation and heat issues are very common with cabinet/closet/tent grows. The key is to have an adequately-sized fan and minimize the amount of resistance in your ducting system, because resistance adds to the static pressure against which your fan must push/pull. Your heat problem is most likely caused by a combination of a few different things:

1) Long duct runs - you need to use as little ducting as possible to minimize resistance.

2) Narrow ducting - 4" ducting adds a lot of resistance, you should try and see if 6" ducting fits.

3) Many bends - every bend in your ducting seriously increases the resistance on your exhause circuit.

4) Too small of an extraction fan - if you must have alot of resistance in your ducting, you need to use a bigger fan.

The thing about fluoros is that they produce about as much heat as HIDs, it's just not as intense cuz it's spread along a way bigger arc tube. So if you can't cool 400w of HIDs, you probably won't be able to cool 400w of fluoros. As far as HIDs go, CMHs burn cooler than HPS, which burn cooler than MH.

Hope some of that helps, and good luck!

 

[GrüneErd]

thanks everyone that responded, its all been helpful
red, LOL 50cfm no wonder i've been thinking there's something wrong with my fan all along. before this i was exhausting through a hole cut in the closet door with a typical house vent-cover drilled over it, and into the bedroom that the closet is in.
but it made the room so hot all the time, that not only would it build up in the closet, the whole bedroom would be hot.
this was with the closet door left open for intake/fresh air.

as you can assume, i'd rather not EVER have the closet door open, but i had to do what i had to do ya know. i'd like to achieve a 400w hps in there, that's my ultimate goal, as i don't think it's unachievable?(seems to be for me so far, but for many apparently it's easy)
if exhausting into the wall is no good, and through the door into the adjacent bedroom no good, what am i left to work with do you think? what do/would you guys do?

here's some pics of recent buds, some Papaya from Nirvana, my keeper/mom pheno:

thanks again.

 

[messn'n'gommin']

Just a thought, but what is on the other side of the wall your trying to vent into? If possible, could you cut a hole and mount a return air grill close to the floor? They come in fairly large sizes and would provide you with an outlet for your vent and they rarely generate, if ever, questions. There was a thread here on someone doing just that and was venting just behind his fridge. An added plus, the fridge provided an excuse for any noise or heat.

Namaste, mess

 

[swampy_nz]

i wound exhaust straight into your roof.end of heat problem.

 

[GrüneErd]

i wound exhaust straight into your roof.end of heat problem.

that's what i was thinking, it was my last option due to the textured ceiling but i'm down to do whatever in this case. i appreciate it swampy

messn' thanks for that info too, that's actually a great idea. i just don't want to have to cut any holes on anything but this closet ya know, rented house deal.

i'm gonna take a peak in my attic and get above the closet, have a look around, make that work for the exhaust if the general consensus is that it would be the be the best place for it.
(i'm assuming there'd be less resistance up there and i'd get closer to the full CFM range of my fan?)

with that taken care of (i say, hopefully it will take care of something) i have to ask about my intake:
with this closet being in a used bedroom, and a panda-poly curtain light-proofing the space between the closet-door and the closet opening, what are my intake options? i'm not talking about size, redgreenery has the calculations for that i can do on my own, but where would you passively intake from?
i'm not sure what a good source would be other than the adjacent bedroom via a hole in the closet door, though then light-proofing becomes the issue.
any help on this would be very much appreciated, you guys are awesome out there.
looks like i gained more of my actual growth knowledge, experience, and skill before that of assembling a grow room lol, weird order.
peace

 

[JamieShoes]

I would cut a hole into the roof space too as Swampy suggests.. not only would I but I am going to on the weekend as I want to tackle a similar problem of reducing the ambient temp in my tents room :smile:

 

[GrüneErd]

I would cut a hole into the roof space too as Swampy suggests.. not only would I but I am going to on the weekend as I want to tackle a similar problem of reducing the ambient temp in my tents room :smile:

thanks JShoes! ha looks like i'm going to be doin the same thing this weekend as well. tents room eh? i love the idea of growing in a tent, can't wait til i can have a secure enough room to have a grow-tent just chillin in it lol.

for now i'd be completely content if i could get my 400w in this closet space and keep it cool enough to grow. 100% HAPPY actually lol.
i know this can be done, and everyone is helpin me get there, so thanks so much.
any ideas on intake anyone? having this panda-poly curtain throws all my ideas for intaking through the door off.
peace

 

[messn'n'gommin']

thanks JShoes! ha looks like i'm going to be doin the same thing this weekend as well. tents room eh? i love the idea of growing in a tent, can't wait til i can have a secure enough room to have a grow-tent just chillin in it lol.

for now i'd be completely content if i could get my 400w in this closet space and keep it cool enough to grow. 100% HAPPY actually lol.
i know this can be done, and everyone is helpin me get there, so thanks so much.
any ideas on intake anyone? having this panda-poly curtain throws all my ideas for intaking through the door off.
peace

Even then, drywall repair is pretty straight forward and requires a minimal of skills or material. However, would this help? Replace the current door with an el cheapo closet door you can hack around on. When it comes time to move, replace it with the original door and junk the the el cheapo.

btw: The only caveat I can think of with venting to the attic is the increase in utility bills. Me? I'm a cheap bastard and vent to the basement to recycle the heat and in the summer the added heat isn't really all that much more to cool. But, I don't have a large grow and I can see a large grow putting out a lot of humidity!

Namaste, mess

 

[JamieShoes]

lol yeah I know man "my effing tent's room"... like a divvy I didnt measure up properly and it doesnt fit in my attic... subsequently the tent (and veg box) have a bedroom to themselves...

quite right too, Mess. Its a shame to not use all that good, free heat, but right now my main concern is dumping it out of the room without stinking up the house :smile:



good luck with your hole, GE :wink:
j

 

[GrüneErd]

thanks again messn'!
i went ahead and did just that thing as soon as i rented the house and knew this closet space would most likely be the grow-room. so i can cut whatever i want into it and it's no problem.
in fact, it already has 2 holes covered with standard household AC/ducting-vent, one at the top of the door and one at the bottom.
both holes are 11.75"x7.5", the same size as the covers.
here's a pic:

i installed them initially for my intake and exhaust, though i could never figure out how to run a passive intake through both a door and a panda-poly curtain and still have it be light-proof.

i thought about a rectangular aluminum ducting thing attached to the bottom hole on the inside of the door, with a corresponding hole cut in the curtain to allow for this rectangular duct to fit through it, with a 90 degree upwards/downwards/wherever kink at the end of it (on the inside of the closet where the plants would be) that's painted black on the inside.
from the outside looking at the door closed, the airflow would be: room-> vent-> duct-> past the curtain-> 90degree bend-> into closet.
to think about this idea more, i need to calculate the size intake i need, i know, but what do you guys think?

but this is my main problem: how to passively intake through both door and curtain, or where else to intake from. do i have any other options (i'm sure there are) beside my door really?

also, here's the 400w lamp/hood i would ultimately like to have going in there:

the collar at the top is for 4" ducting.
thanks all.
peace

 

[messn'n'gommin']

You could try using enough 4" to 6" PVC elbows assembled in an S pattern for two intakes and mount them to a piece of plywood (say, 10"-12"wide by 15"-18" tall stood upright for ease of access to the room). Paint the interior of the elbows with flat black spray paint. I have never used PVC before but the black seems a bit shiny (read: reflective). But, someone else may have a different take on that. Secured in place, you can staple the plastic to it and use a couple pieces of lathe, or similar, tacked on top of the "seam" to strengthen the stapling.

Also, I would recommend 6" as it will help to reduce noise some and offer a bit less resistance than 4" duct. Every little bit helps!

lol...An interesting set of problems you have going, G!

Namaste, mess

 

[GrüneErd]

hey messn' i read your post this morning and was like huh?

but after a few college classes and a bowl of some DP Hollands Hope, i (think i) understand EXACTLY what you mean and how it can be applied to my setup here.
the board is attached to my curtain with the passive intakes going through both board and curtain, which would work well.
but that still leaves the door.
either the PVC intakes would have to go through the door TOO, which is where i've been havin the problems because the board and curtain would have to be able to swing open with the door too, or they and the curtain would stay closed while the door is open in order to prevent the door from blocking them off at the fresh-air-end.

i'm gonna get to work today hopefully gettin the exhaust set up at least, that way there's still time to come up with more ideas about intake before i settle on something.
i desire very much to have as 'clean' a setup as possible here that allows me to have the door closed with a 400w hps going and the temps only rising around 5* from ambient intake temps.
thanks for the help all around again, any more ideas on intake?
this may be a dumb question, the answer presumably being "no - too much resistance and too little air," but can you just passively intake from inside the wall of the closet successfully? not all the way through the wall, just from the hollow pocket inside that's created by the studs and drywall?
peace

 

[GrüneErd]

got it figured out, temps are alright so far.
damn this is gonna make a HUGE difference!

thanks to everyone
peace

 

[GrüneErd]

here's what i got goin now at a cool 76* (my ambient right now is 73*):

here's how i figured out the intake:
(the ducting isn't floating in mid-air, its tied with a string to the cutain, 90* angle upwards so there's no light coming in, AND when the door's closed it fits just ALMOST right under the light, like a floating cool-tube with no tube that doesn't block much light to the plants)

my little cfl-ers, happy in their new home:

thanks!
peace