IBL vigor

[Deviantmind]

Havn't run any of Ethos gear yet but i'm constantly eye balling the Lilac diesel BX and his version of Super lemon haze interest me, don't think i've heard/seen anything from AG.

His super lemon haze is actually lemon skunk x jack herer if you looking for something close to it won't be quite like that

There are popular assumptions that need clarification.
Recessive traits appear at F2: this would require one of the parents to have no recessive genes at all. Recessive traits can appear at F1 stage just as easily as F2. No matter how many generations are bred, there will still be some around. The best common example of this I can give is red hair in people.

Inbreeding depression: is purely the result of poor breeding. Ibl's don't need to lose vigour. If they do, the wrong selections were made.

Backcrossing: is a breeding tool, not a rescue root after poor breeding.

MtDNA is the route to vigour. This needs to be selected for, understood how it is passed, and only sacrificed for quality at the correct points in the breeding program.

There is a final generation that should be used, the other generations are stepping stones, not end results in their own right. This end generation can be remade endlessly by keeping it's parents, but this is mainly for clone and P1 selections by end users.

Breeding isn't for everyone. Unless you want a hobby that you'll obsess over for decades, just so you can have a few unique smokes, fine tuned to your own taste, it's better to find clones from breeders seeds.

Not everyone who sells seeds, are breeders. Most breeders don't sell seeds.

Heterosis is the best way to achieve vigor inbreeding for that trait would require very

There are popular assumptions that need clarification.
Recessive traits appear at F2: this would require one of the parents to have no recessive genes at all. Recessive traits can appear at F1 stage just as easily as F2. No matter how many generations are bred, there will still be some around. The best common example of this I can give is red hair in people.

Inbreeding depression: is purely the result of poor breeding. Ibl's don't need to lose vigour. If they do, the wrong selections were made.

Backcrossing: is a breeding tool, not a rescue root after poor breeding.

MtDNA is the route to vigour. This needs to be selected for, understood how it is passed, and only sacrificed for quality at the correct points in the breeding program.

There is a final generation that should be used, the other generations are stepping stones, not end results in their own right. This end generation can be remade endlessly by keeping it's parents, but this is mainly for clone and P1 selections by end users.

Breeding isn't for everyone. Unless you want a hobby that you'll obsess over for decades, just so you can have a few unique smokes, fine tuned to your own taste, it's better to find clones from breeders seeds.

Not everyone who sells seeds, are breeders. Most breeders don't sell seeds.

Not sure about your beliefs on vigor. The best way to get vigor is to achieve hererosis. Inbreeding for vigor doesn't make as much sense considering there's an indirect relationship between homogeny and vigor unless your open pollinating in which case good luck on the homogeny. No matter what selections you make the further you push the line the more likely things are to become depressed. That why no one's really pushed to far past f10. Also as far as f2 vs f1 for recessive traits. It's not that you cant find recessive traits in f1 populations it's just much harder to find because of the tendency to express heterozygous or dominate genes vs recessive ones. That's why f2 appears to be less uniform than true f1s

 

[GMT]

Goingrey, it's been discussed at length on here. There are lots of good threads in the breeders lab.

Deviantmind, I strongly disagree. P1's pass on recessive genes. Or else, where are they coming from at F2? If they came from P1's to F1's, then the F1's in some examples, will be in possession of more recessive genes than the F2's, as you lose some each generation.
As for what causes vigour, you only need DNA strand a, to be different than strand b, if strand a has errors. This is why some talk about heterogeneous rather than homogeneous plant lines as being desirable, others need the homogenic plants for their research. It's not that one is bad and one good, it's just different paths to different goals. Not vigorous v non vigorous lines. These are separate issues and aren't related.
What makes you think no one inbreeds? I'm at f17 on one line, and I'm just one guy. There are groups working lines together, there are all sorts of projects afoot out there.
Get to know the site, you'll be amazed at the info resource, this place can be.

 

[Atom]

I'm new so please forgive this question, I'm uneducated but thanks to this forum and all of you I'm learning ..so if you need strand A to be different then B how would one introduce it if you needed it? And how would u know who has it or what it looks like?

 

[Mudballs2.0]

I'm new so please forgive this question, I'm uneducated but thanks to this forum and all of you I'm learning ..so if you need strand A to be different then B how would one introduce it if you needed it? And how would u know who has it or what it looks like?

That's the heterozygous and homozygous part...an IBL(f6+) is homozygous, yes? Same DNA in each one...then anything NOT of the seed family will be introducing new DNA strand...yes?
You can tell the sickly from the healthy easy enough... that's selecting for a robust MtDNA. Selecting for visual vigour is pretty much the same as selecting for unaltered mitochondrial...maybe a little more esoteric but nothing the avg. Joe need worry about when pollen chucking.

 

[goingrey]

You can tell the sickly from the healthy easy enough... that's selecting for a robust MtDNA. Selecting for visual vigour is pretty much the same as selecting for unaltered mitochondrial...maybe a little more esoteric but nothing the avg. Joe need worry about when pollen chucking.

I'm sure most all people do that instinctively. But still, the inbreeding depression seems to happen time and time again once inbred enough times... Could there be a way to avoid it by looking at the mtDNA? And how would that be done, with a microscope?

Really can't find any threads here btw at least with the search term mtDNA.

 

[Mudballs2.0]

I'm sure most all people do that instinctively. But still, the inbreeding depression seems to happen time and time again once inbred enough times... Could there be a way to avoid it by looking at the mtDNA? And how would that be done, with a microscope?

Really can't find any threads here btw at least with the search term mtDNA.

No, and that's because we are trying to break nature and create a better drug...not a better plant. In natural selection, the key program running will not make a more frosty nug with more apple terps..it will try to make some ditch weed hemp that can withstand anything and still reproduce. That's all these plant will do without human intervention, revert to ditch weed...vigorous ditch weed. We gotta give and take in this game.

 

[Deviantmind]

Goingrey, it's been discussed at length on here. There are lots of good threads in the breeders lab.

Deviantmind, I strongly disagree. P1's pass on recessive genes. Or else, where are they coming from at F2? If they came from P1's to F1's, then the F1's in some examples, will be in possession of more recessive genes than the F2's, as you lose some each generation.
As for what causes vigour, you only need DNA strand a, to be different than strand b, if strand a has errors. This is why some talk about heterogeneous rather than homogeneous plant lines as being desirable, others need the homogenic plants for their research. It's not that one is bad and one good, it's just different paths to different goals. Not vigorous v non vigorous lines. These are separate issues and aren't related.
What makes you think no one inbreeds? I'm at f17 on one line, and I'm just one guy. There are groups working lines together, there are all sorts of projects afoot out there.
Get to know the site, you'll be amazed at the info resource, this place can be.

I didn't say one was bad and one was good just that there is an indirect relationship between homogeny and vigor.if Your population has been worked to the point were all the alleles (segments of dna) are homogenous (stability) crossing that population to the next gen will only make more of the same they're definitelyconnected concepts . Good example of that is the deep chunk line. Also I didn't say no one inbreeds just that very few take it really far. I've been aware of icmag for awhile now and have just started having conversations on here. I really love talking to you guys. No one in my regular life gives a fuck about this stuff as for f1 vs v2 i didn't say you can't find recessive at f1 just that they are less likely to appear when your sifting through the population because f1 usually shows dominance for a combination of traits from the parent. If it's true f1. F2 is a much broader phenotype ratio which is why you can find Parental generation pheno types easier in f2.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Off topic abit what breeders genetics do u like...just curious.

You might want to take a look at mr nice....especially if your looking for breeding stock.....alot of the work has been done for you....an it will be easier to work with an pick males were they already pass on certain traits....worth checking out if your just getting into breeding.

 

[GMT]

Mudballs, to get a truly homozygous plant, you would need to start with a haploid and use the same techniques as with creating tetraploids from diploids, first thing that comes to my mind would be colchicine. That would create a plant with two identical strands of DNA in each new cell. Let's overlook mitosis generated errors down the line for now. The rest of the post was spot on, just pointing out that classical breeding won't create that type of plant at any Fn.

Goingrey, expand the search to thread contents rather than just titles. But you wouldn't do it with a microscope. At least I wouldn't, I suppose some lab might, but I think they will prob have an even cleverer way. But we've all wished it wasn't the runt that tasted, smelled, hit the best before now. That next decision matters.

Deviant, sorry man, I know you didn't say good and bad, I was just saying they aren't; just diff for diff purposes.
The vigour though is not coming from different genes so much as any faulty genes have a healthy version working in the same cell as it, so the cell doesn't malfunction or struggle due to the homogeneous nature of it's make up. However if you have both gene copies identical and working, there's no down side to not having a faulty version. The energy that the plant needs though, doesn't come from its DNA, nor it's medium, nutrients or even light. These are just inputs for the power plants within the plants. So we don't just select for what gets produced, but also how well it's produced. That's what I'm trying to get to here. Probably went the long way round, I'm smoking .

Dark storm, yeah with older stock. For a breeder, proper breeder, I like reefer man. Though ojd is putting fire in people's hands. Sweet seeds have some nice offerings.

 

[Mudballs2.0]

Mudballs, to get a truly homozygous plant, you would need to start with a haploid and use the same techniques as with creating tetraploids from diploids, first thing that comes to my mind would be colchicine. That would create a plant with two identical strands of DNA in each new cell. Let's overlook mitosis generated errors down the line for now. The rest of the post was spot on, just pointing out that classical breeding won't create that type of plant at any Fn.

Goingrey, expand the search to thread contents rather than just titles. But you wouldn't do it with a microscope. At least I wouldn't, I suppose some lab might, but I think they will prob have an even cleverer way. But we've all wished it wasn't the runt that tasted, smelled, hit the best before now. That next decision matters.

Deviant, sorry man, I know you didn't say good and bad, I was just saying they aren't; just diff for diff purposes.
The vigour though is not coming from different genes so much as any faulty genes have a healthy version working in the same cell as it, so the cell doesn't malfunction or struggle due to the homogeneous nature of it's make up. However if you have both gene copies identical and working, there's no down side to not having a faulty version. The energy that the plant needs though, doesn't come from its DNA, nor it's medium, nutrients or even light. These are just inputs for the power plants within the plants. So we don't just select for what gets produced, but also how well it's produced. That's what I'm trying to get to here. Probably went the long way round, I'm smoking .

Dark storm, yeah with older stock. For a breeder, proper breeder, I like reefer man. Though ojd is putting fire in people's hands. Sweet seeds have some nice offerings.

You mentioned vigor can be brought in by crossing in new dna, i believe you mentioned strand. Homozygous is not dna strands, i did not say dna strands. I said
Same DNA in each one...
and a new strand would be introduced. A new sequence, alleles, gametes whathaveyou.

 

[GMT]

Edit....The above post was edited after I responded to it, making my response look irrelevant, so I removed my response.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

As I said for someone new to breeding the current mr nice stock has alot of the work already done for you...you can grow a small amount of seeds an get males (an females) that will give predictable results that will already pass on certain traits....not many out there like that as normally you have to test an find certain things an then lock them down...for someone getting into breeding alot of the work has been done already... yes you can find other breeders putting out great things but not many were you know in very small numbers the plants already are going to pass the main traits of the strain....thats a great tool to have for people...especially those who are getting into breeding

 

[romanoweed]

split the line early usually at f2 then select an A and a B line then inbreed both lines bout 7 generations selecting toward similar traits then crossing the final lines together. It won't be like heterosis (true f1 vigor) but it won't be depressed.

I never heard that someone really fought inbreding dep. to a degree. But i could imagine that its slightly reduced.. But compleetly avoiding it is probably hard.

Ibl's don't need to lose vigour. If they do, the wrong selections were made

I dont want to fight. But still, do you have evidence for that if possible?
Some people claim that inbreeding depression was prooven. Some say that inbredding depression is not prooven.

What are the explonations for either side? I

 

[GrandpaMillenial]

Ok. Please explain what it is, how it is passed, how it can be selected for, and when would it need to be sacrificed for quality.

Mitochondrial DNA always comes from the mother.

When female reproductive organs produce eggs the cell splits each cell gets their respective half of the normal DNA that we are all familiar with.

However, when with female cells they split and only one cell gets the mitochondria. The loser cell just dies off.

The male gamete never transfers mitochondrial dna.

Oogenesis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[goingrey]

Mitochondrial DNA always comes from the mother.

When female reproductive organs produce eggs the cell splits each cell gets their respective half of the normal DNA that we are all familiar with.

However, when with female cells they split and only one cell gets the mitochondria. The loser cell just dies off.

The male gamete never transfers mitochondrial dna.

Oogenesis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's interesting. Seems to me like it can't be the be-all and end-all of vigor then. Otherwise the health of the pollen donor(s) would play no part in it, for sure not the case.

 

[Mudballs2.0]

I never heard that someone really fought inbreding dep. to a degree. But i could imagine that its slightly reduced.. But compleetly avoiding it is probably hard.


I dont want to fight. But still, do you have evidence for that if possible?
Some people claim that inbreeding depression was prooven. Some say that inbredding depression is not prooven.

What are the explonations for either side? I

inbreeding depression has been proven and is well documented,
...results in an increased probability that the offspring of the mating will receive the same allele from both parents.
that doesn't mean it is unavoidable when breeding plants, dogs, cows, etc.

 

[GMT]

You mentioned vigor can be brought in by crossing in new dna, i believe you mentioned strand. Homozygous is not dna strands, i did not say dna strands. I said
Same DNA in each one...
and a new strand would be introduced. A new sequence, alleles, gametes whathaveyou.

I said you only need them to be different if one has errors. Each cell has two strands of DNA, half of each strand from the mother and half from the father. You won't get the same DNA in both strands never mind multiple plants. The process of meiosis alone sees to that.

Romano weed, I've been putting my proof on this site since 2004 and on overgrow before that. How much proof do I need to put online. What proof were you shown to make you believe the salesmen in the first place? Really, we only ask for proof of things that exist, rather than things that don't. After all, the reason santa doesn't visit you may be that you're naughty rather than he doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative, just an absence of evidence for the positive.

Goingrey, healthy DNA is the father's contribution, healthy DNA and plentiful healthy mtdna are the mother's contributions. We want it all. But to the extent we can generate pollen from females, there are arguments from some corners saying just that, fathers/males aren't important. There are good reasons to keep males around though.

 

[GMT]

Mudballs, Crashing motorbikes have also been documented, that doesn't mean you can't ride without crashing.
Something happening, doesn't mean it is a given that it will always happen. There have been lots of outcrossing failures too.

Edit...I do wish you'd stop editing your posts after I respond to them. It makes my responses look pointless.

 

[Mudballs2.0]

I beg your pardon? I didnt change shit, ur pissing me off with your poor english in highly academic subject matter.

 

[GMT]

You're a bullshit artist if you're trying to pull that shit now. You edited two posts after I replied. I'm out.