IAA FOR ROOTS WHEN?

[aus2canibasiva]

Hey Shaggy Iv'e used a High Auxin (IAA) Kelp product called Kelpak it uses the the species Ecklonia maxima that has been known to grow up to 30 cm a day due to the high concentration of Auxin (IAA) & had great results with root formation, I dug into the ground, carefully mind you the root formation has been more robust & the days after applying (IAA) shoot formation was boosted over night, the proceeding mornings after the applications my plants had gained 2 inches each time. In short I love (IAA) for vegetative growth, it is an amazing compound.
Link: http://www.kelpak.com/
Wiki Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecklonia_maxima

Personally I tend to steer away from the Naphthaleneacetic acid (NAA) just because I cant let go of the stigma of it being synthetic I wont use it at all, (although i'll bend my rules for (6-BAP) a synthetic Cytokinin, off topic.)
I would use Indole butyric acid (IBA) & Auxin (IAA) also for rooting, I don't mind the (IBA) because it is found in high amounts in the Willow tree.

Does IBA work with cannabis at least as well if not better than IAA in all regards?

I'm not sure if (IBA) works better in all regards than (IAA) Just not proficient in that yet, but soon! I only have observational data to give at this point.
I use Auxin (IAA) for vegetative growth exclusively to form a good root mass & shoot initiation before flower, then switch to high Cytokinin based pure hormones/products to boost bud set & because I mainline my plants, a great technique by the way; to have 8 main colas; the Auxin makes em shoot up then the Cytokinin takes over in flower & so far I'm noticing good results. Tall and bushing out!
But i'll use (IBA) & (IAA) for cloning purposes & that is the extent of how I use auxin and it's analogues, for now......i'm always looking for new info!


I'm digging the Picture Only Ornamental

I cant make to much sense of it either, but a great post non the less, cheers!
One thing I don't like about it is the fact that there are all these ? marks all over the picture, it makes it confusing lol, i'll check it tomorrow when I am not so sober hahaha.



Great thread Shaggy!

 

[shaggyballs]

I am wondering that too.

Does IBA work with cannabis at least as well if not better than IAA in all regards?

Also what is the shelf life of IAA once mixed?...days or hours...and is there a way to stabilize it???
Power clone seems to have done it...can we?

@ aus2canibasiva
Also what PPM do you recommend for cloning and what PPM is recommended for veg growth?

 

[aus2canibasiva]

I am wondering that too.


@ aus2canibasiva
Also what PPM do you recommend for cloning and what PPM is recommended for veg growth?

SHAGGY
For the cloning I used Kelpak at 10 ml per liter I haven't used my pure (IAA) for anything yet, but for when I use it in the future it will be 100 ppm & the (IBA) I have used has been at 75 ppm, so that's the cloning solution.

Again iv'e only used Kelpak for vegetative growth not the pure (IAA) yet, the ratio was 10 ml per liter every 14 to 21 days i went with 14 day intervals.

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

I just found out that it is used in power clone!!
http://www.botanicare.com/Power-Clonetrade-Advanced-Liquid-Formula-P86.aspx

0.0005% Indole-3-Acetic Acid
So that is 5 PPM correct???(concentrate)
It is to be mixed at it's strongest 60 ml per gallon.
What would the working solution PPM be???

I came up with this approximation.
Indole-3-Acetic Acid ....... 0.3 PPM RTU working solution.

Could someone take me to school on this??

0.0005% X 10000 ppm/% = 5 ppm (correct)

But at 60 ml/gal:

(3800 ml/gal)/(60ml/gal) = 63.333 fold dilution.

5 ppm/63.333 fold dilution = 0.079 ppm = ~0.08 ppm.

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

I am wondering that too.

Does IBA work with cannabis at least as well if not better than IAA in all regards?

Also what is the shelf life of IAA once mixed?...days or hours...and is there a way to stabilize it???
Power clone seems to have done it...can we?

@ aus2canibasiva
Also what PPM do you recommend for cloning and what PPM is recommended for veg growth?

Micropropagation studies on your plant species of interestest is a great way to figure this out. There are only a few for cannabis. Some from Poland, Mississippi (US), Japan, Hong Kong (strangely), and Italy (if I recall correctly)

From the studies I read, they would actually induce roots directly from shoots. Meaning they would have the tissue produce SHOOT (stems) and then induce rooting from there.

These studies often tried different concentrations and there was ALWAYS a sweet spot w/ drasticly reduced rooting outsite that spot.

IBA was almost unanamously better at root production that IAA or NAA. Infact NAA was used to produce callous cells (undifferentiated cells; meanin gthey're not stem, leaf, root, or any specific type of tissue)...they then use this callus to induce shoots and then roots.

OK, I've written a lot, but the final message is IBA and the sweet spots seems to be 2.5 uM (2.5 micomoles) which converts to 0.51 mg/L (ppm).

SO. 0.5 ppm would be a great spot for your cloning solution to be, in my opinion/education. You'll have to use IBA in it's water soluble salt form.

oh, as an aside, they also found in these studies that using 1/2 strength MS media (an academically used hydroponic solution). They tested different concentrations of nutreitns and this 1/2 strength formulas was best (as apposed to full strength or no minerals)

 

[Beta Test Team]

Hi Shaggy,

Long time no see.

I just noticed this thread and thought I could post a little useful info. I didn't read the thread yet so maybe someone already posted this?

IAA isn't for root growth in the way you seem to be asking, it has been found to inhibit root growth in some cases (for what you seem to want). Instead you should look to IBA, using K-IBA would be easiest for you. I would suggest copying a liquid product with IBA at their IBA concentration if you want to copy a product, such as Dip-N-Grow.

IAA is very unstable in water (like a bottle of Power Clone) in most all cases, best case scenario is weeks, but for something like Power Clone you're looking at days. Also, there's only 5 mg/L IAA in Power Clone, so even under best case it would degrade by % over time, so it would be much lower once diluted even after a few weeks vs. when it's first mixed at the factory; IBA is much more stable (time wise) in water than IAA.

If Power Clone really does have noticeable effect on root growth vs. just using water, then I suspect they're adding IBA (and/or NAA), and not listing on the label.

NAA is also good for root growth, but is not found naturally, unlike IBA, if that matters to you. NAA is often used in a 1:2 ratio with IBA.

 

[Beta Test Team]

0.0005% X 10000 ppm/% = 5 ppm (correction)

But at 60 ml/gal:

(3800 ml/gal)/(60ml/gal) = 63.333 fold dilution.

5 ppm/63.333 fold dilution = 0.079 ppm = ~0.08 ppm.

It looks like you're not accounting for density (1.177)? And dilution rate is about 63.09, not 63.333, as far as I can tell.

At Shaggy's info, the IAA would be just about 0.09 mg/L.

For example, 5 mg/L in the bottle divided by 63.09 times 1.177 equals 0.0932794420668886 mg/L (or so).

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

W/regard to the added volume or change in density, i always disregard those w nutes and additives bc they're negligible. 5/63.33 and 5/63.09 yield negligible difference. You probablybe more off w your rezervoirs and measuring vessels...unless you have pipettes etc.

Keep in mind the increased density would likely be due to minerals in clone solution, not the 5 ppm Iaa

And only that mineral which is most abundant would show the largest change due to this density...and still this wouldn't be appreciable w respect to that mineral. In other words, you're not going to see a 17% increase in IAA from this solutions density.

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

Liter pure water = 1000 grams...add 5 mg (0.005g) iAA to that. 1.005 g/L.

Oh, just realized! ... Density doesnt matter anyhow bc you're not delivering this by mass, you're deiveringby volume and the company is reporting the values (by convention) in w/v. You're adding 60 mL/gal which has 5 mg iaa/L. If they reported percent w/w your calc wouldbe correct.

 

[Beta Test Team]

W/regard to the added volume or change in density, i always disregard those w nutes and additives bc they're negligible. 5/63.33 and 5/63.09 yield negligible difference. You probablybe more off w your rezervoirs and measuring vessels...unless you have pipettes etc.

Keep in mind the increased density would likely be due to minerals in clone solution, not the 5 ppm Iaa

And only that mineral which is most abundant would show the largest change due to this density...and still this wouldn't be appreciable w respect to that mineral. In other words, you're not going to see a 17% increase in IAA from this solutions density.

Liter pure water = 1000 grams...add 5 mg (0.005g) iAA to that. 1.005 g/L.

Oh, just realized! ... Density doesnt matter anyhow bc you're not delivering this by mass, you're deiveringby volume and the company is reporting the values (by convention) in w/v. You're adding 60 mL/gal which has 5 mg iaa/L. If they reported percent w/w your calc wouldbe correct.

Not trying to argue with you here, just want to point out a few things:

In the US label values are listed by w/w. So for that product in question it's by w/w. In Europe it's often by w/v. So if one is trying to calculate the concentration of a substance by mg/L density needs to be accounted for when measuring by volume.

My calculations are correct, granted they're assuming weight of volume listed on label is the same temperature of solution as when it's used by the grower. But your point is valid in terms of measurement errors that are likely by the grower. However, if one is trying to copy a product accurate calculations are important, hence my calculations should be used by Shaggy for whatever he's trying to accomplish.

http://www.botanicare.com/Power-Clonetrade-Advanced-Liquid-Formula-P86.aspx

 

[shaggyballs]

Been busy but thanks beta....old thread but still an issue I was thinkn of!

@ CoCoColaClassic
Thank you for your input.
It is also appreciated the same as beta's info!

Beta is pretty spot on usually, and always helpful, a bit brutally honest at times but he is a great guy over all, with tons and tons of good info backed by real life studies much like you seem to be also.

Thanks again to both of you!
I will be around more soon I hope.
Till then my friends.

Shag

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

Hey beta, just checked, you're right (my bad)...and I actualy appreciate it bc some products get are dense enough i'd be way off! And particularly on the MW of the speciese this would have meant way more moles (or molecules) per volume. Luckily here the mw of hormones is SO HIGH when we got to micromoles it would have been negligible.

Shaggy, no wirries about beta, he's honest w/o being jbrutal...and thorough and i actualy really appreciate/needed this correction. I'm still not sure were i got it locked in my head things were w/v.

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

I'm running thenumbers and when you calc to mirco molar beta and my diff wod have yieled 0.51 uM vs 0.45 uM and that just nit appreciable, beta. No micro propagation study would test that small of a range. You'd see .5, 1.0, 2.0, 2.5 uM ..hmm

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

I agree with you if i was making a product and even then only for regulatory compliance and i'd be using "to deliver" ( aka TD) pipettes and grad cyliners, but I think I came to my conclusion of just multiplied by 10,000 and using basic dilution factor because it's convenient and works and the numbers you're speaking of Adding to the calc are negligible unless you're working the dry compound with the product if interest.

Going through these calculations is i think why i came to the conclusions that treating our products as % x 10,000 = mg/L

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

Erase my message because predictive text was sucking my hands are full right now. Great topic appreciate you both, shaggy and beta.

 

[shaggyballs]

How have you been using IAA?

 

[shaggyballs]

No response in a year.
How have you been using IAA?

 

[GYOweed]

I have been looking all over and didnt know PG had a blog which they included it in the instructions area but w.e
Ima try this:
https://www.powergrown.com/how-to-use-indole-acetic-acid-for-plant-growth/

Waiting for my riot rooters to come in today.

 

[shaggyballs]

I have been looking all over and didnt know PG had a blog which they included it in the instructions area but w.e
Ima try this:
https://www.powergrown.com/how-to-use-indole-acetic-acid-for-plant-growth/

Waiting for my riot rooters to come in today.

BTW
IBA is a better choice for rooting.

 

[GYOweed]

I keep reading conflicts but i have take root which is like 0.01% iba