I want some more Heliotropism!

[kelly1376]

I am wondering if it is possible to get smaller bulbs than 400 watts and use more of them, and make these lights closer to the tops.

Yeah that's why I initially brought up the cobs. You could run a ton of individual lights at say 50 watts each, but if you used HID I think you'd need a separate ballast for each bulb and that would become a pain in the butt really quick. But with COBs it's simple enough to do once you understand the driver and wiring concepts, and you can get cobs in different spectrums, 2500k (same as HPS) up to 5000k.

I am wondering if before this is all over with that I have to have a metal fabricator to make a hood that would allow all the lights, with sockets placed where we desire. You got some really good links to science and that says a whole lot about you, my articulate new friend!

Hit up one of those cob builder guys. They design framework for stuff like that all the time. I know I already mentioned timber grow but there are others like johnson grow lights (horticulture lighting group), cobkits.com, & heavenbright. There's a guy on youtube called growmau5 that has a bunch of tutorials & always does various framework builds. The angled aluminum framing is easy enough to work with.

 

[Scott64a]

People keep suggesting LED, put the light is so bright that on my high end flash lights they say you can not read under them, nor is it good for people. I guess I need to learn more about them because Philups sure seams to like them but grow lights by manufactures are nit on the band wagon yet and this makes me wonder why. Sun Systems does not have an LED set up.

The LED grow lights are not the same as an LED in a flashlight.
For around $60, one can get a 300W LED panel that gives full spectrum lighting with a lot less heat and energy consumption than a HPS or even a MH.
They're even available in strips.
I'd do strips down low on the horizon, a small 300W panel, then a 600W panel for the top, a 300W and then strips again. I'd set the strips to more reds and greens.

They even give IR and UV light! They emit all the spectrum that a HPS does, even if only less powerful at the moment.

I may be building an igloo in my basement soon to try this hahaha

Honestly, if I had the money, I'd be building a sweet grow setup and implementing the dome, the travelling "sun" and all.

Then again... Plenty of people use just a straight walled box and add LED strips to the sides or fluorescent tubes and get pretty amazing yields. I don't know that I'd even mess with a big energy chugging HPS or MH at all, since I want a small box that doesn't cost a ton to run. Running a 24hr day cycle for vegging is pricey!

ReikoX, I saw that curved mounting bar setup, and that's probably what got me thinking toward a planetarium.
Oh, if I had to funds hahaha
I'd have a walk-in arboretum with a band of the best LED money could buy and a travelling sun.

Then again, if I had that kind of money, I'd build one of those English greenhouses that I love so much. That'd keep me in herb for the year, for SURE! Late finishing time? No worries!

Like this!

 

[Chilly Willy]

Scott - it is funny you mention igloo.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Kelly - I am sure going to check into the cob. I want to push a couple of these ideas I got. Need to see what all materials are available, and how that is going to change the initial idea.

A pot does not ned to be swear or round, it can be long and narrow and be made part of a screen that slides into a light box. If the bulbs are small like 150 watts then the smaller intensity will let the bulbs get closer to the screens, that way you can put a screen on each side of the bulb (bulbs). I guess it all depends how big the screen is.

But first I want to try to figure out this heliotropism with moving lights, I don't want to use my igloo, it is my home. I think a flat surface is just fine, and maybe use smaller bulbs like 150 watts, and more of them. I can make the midday use more HPS, and morning and evening is more MH in my arrangement of the lights staggering on and off to move the leaves. I guess it depends on the equipment too, if it is the same ballast that works both 150 watt and 250 watt then it would probably be better to use less light bulbs and more intensity that way. I need to figure this out pretty soon because I want to start buying the equipment, at least part of it so I can start growing, I miss it a whole lot. But talking about it is really cool too. I guess the chase is as good as the catch.

 

[Chilly Willy]

ReikoX - how you doing today bud? I looked at the charts and they say HPS and MH at 150 watts is about 7 inches will give you full intensity of the sun. But I got some comments the other day from some guys who say that those charts, that their numbers are too small and they would burn their plants at 20 inches under a 1000watt bulb. I used the charts and got great results for 400 watt MH, and HPS.

So how close do you put your 150 watt bulbs to the top of your canopy? By the way, thanks for coming by today. I really appreciate your input. Here are the charts, I slipped in an extra picture showing you my pots, and substrate (I have only grown organic and that includes this special soil):

 

[ReikoX]

Hey Chilly,
The small CMH bulbs are quite cool to the touch. I keep my plants around 10 inches from the bulb. The bulb is vertical. Here, a picture is worth 1K words.

What you see here is my CMH cab (one of two sections). The entire cab is 30"x30" and the plants are huddled around the bulb and tied back to the screens. Problem is each bulb requires a ballast and that can get expensive fast.

 

[Scott64a]

Scott - it is funny you mention igloo.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74044&pictureid=1766263&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

That really IS funny.

Totally by happenstance, but still synchronicity at least.

 

[Chilly Willy]

ReikoX - Dude, what kind of camera you got, it must be a Nikon SLR. I had to buy a bigger computer just to get the whole picture on my screen. So you don't go by the charts either. I see your pots are touching so you can't move them closer but you can put your screens on the other side of the stalks and weave the bids in them closer to the light. Due to their thickness though, you may want to do what I did and get four small diameter boards, make a square, and drill holes all up and down and across then weave your string in each hole. Making screens well, they made for amazing photographs when complete.

The deal with the charts is what distance is full sun, with 400 watt it is 11 inches. So putting them 11 inches away from the tops is too far. You want full sun to be somewhere down into the canopy, if you can't do this then something else is wrong. What kind of temps are you running inside the cabinet? What are you going to do if a guest comes over and is looking for a towel, and opens up the cabinet? Just curious what you are going to tell them. hehehe

How wide and long is that bulb, and is that a small ballast running it or a big one that is dimmed? Oh, and are you living with others and do they know about the cabinet?

 

[Chilly Willy]

Scott - I spent six months researching before coming to this forum to pick up a few more details back in 2006, and of those six months I used two of them looking for an avatar, and various pictures once I found a cool one (pun intended). I started growing soon as I began posting and people were wow, you must be some kind of scientist, cleanest grow yet, others were like hell, how do you afford all that equipment and nutes; one guy said he pees on his plants for nutrition. It was really fun, and I am hoping to have an even better time this run. Thanks for helping make that happen!

 

[Scott64a]

Scott - I spent six months researching before coming to this forum to pick up a few more details back in 2006, and of those six months I used two of them looking for an avatar, and various pictures once I found a cool one (pun intended). I started growing soon as I began posting and people were wow, you must be some kind of scientist, cleanest grow yet, others were like hell, how do you afford all that equipment and nutes; one guy said he pees on his plants for nutrition. It was really fun, and I am hoping to have an even better time this run. Thanks for helping make that happen!

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74044&pictureid=1766255&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

LOL people are really interesting creatures.

Aren't they?

I'm pretty glad to be here. I've learned so much even for a hobbyist outdoor grower.
Great group here!

 

[Chilly Willy]

Hey guys, a few minutes ago I posted two funny threads, here on the forum; I want all of you there!

The first one is in the Toker's Den: Mug Shots being posted in the Toker's Den

The second one is in the women's forum; Do women get as high as men?

Hope to see you all there. hehehehe

 

[ReikoX]

Chilly, I grabbed my tape measure last night and measured the distance from the bulb to the screens are 9". The buds have a tendency to lean toward the light a few inches, so most of the buds are 7-10 from the bulb. That bulb is 4.5" long. Unfortunately the ballasts I have for these are pretty damn big, as big as the 400w my brother bought.

 

[Chilly Willy]

LOL people are really interesting creatures.

Aren't they?

I'm pretty glad to be here. I've learned so much even for a hobbyist outdoor grower.
Great group here!

Scott - I wanted you to know that it was you who inspired me to make a funny thread about posting mug shots in the Toker's Den. After meeting your personality, It was our talk about the igloos, I posted that picture and your reply is what got me thinking to make a funny thread for all of us to enjoy. Thanks Scott, you are making a bigger contribution than you think! Work harder, we all want more of that. hehehe

I was very close to a person who had an outdoor grow that covered acres of land, one day I will share that story with you. It is amazing, a person could make a movie out of it! You need to do this indoors for many reasons, and we all want to be a part of that when you are ready. How about next month? hehehehe

 

[Chilly Willy]

Chilly, I grabbed my tape measure last night and measured the distance from the bulb to the screens are 9". The buds have a tendency to lean toward the light a few inches, so most of the buds are 7-10 from the bulb. That bulb is 4.5" long. Unfortunately the ballasts I have for these are pretty damn big, as big as the 400w my brother bought.

You just got a second brother, and it is me! There is another way to look at this and it is easier, that ballast probably does 150 watt and 250 watt bulbs; check to see if this is true. If so, then keep your arrangement and just add a bigger bulb. That was clever what you did to make those screens, but they are on the wrong side of the plant. I would get some boards that are 1" by 1", and cut enough of them to make four screens. Nail the sides together to make a square, not rectangle. Then do this again until you have four of them. What you want is four sides, each side has a completed screen so when you are finished and they are placed in there it will form a box. Hang them by suspeding them with strings from ceiling so you can adjust their height (if ever need be). Now the plants will grow into this screen if the plants are out side this screen apporatus. I was really into screens, and I wanted to share with you my experience.

I feel with more light intensity, higher wattage (250) and closer proximity, you will get less stretching and thicker buds. My hat is off to you, that is not easy to do, grow inside a cabinet. And I am serious, have you thought about what to say to someone who opens up the cabinet to get a towel?

Heat rises, so when you put the 250 watt bulb, put a larger vent hole at the top center of the cabinet. Also put a larger vent hole along the bottom, or on the side at the bottom. What will happen is this, as the heat rises it will pull air conditioning up through the bottom vent. This is how you ventilate audio video equipment in a small space and it works amazingly well. Fans from computers suck, they don't work well, and they go out all the time. This is a more efficient way I just mentioned, it uses science, and not electronics. And in a grow, dependability is very important. Probably more so in a cabinet!

Thanks for following up and helping me! I think the feeling of belonging somewhere is the best feeling in the world, and when doing a grow that hag so many variables it is nice to know you have friends here who cheer you on. But, if my ideas add any to the GVW, then I want 5% percent of the take. hehehehe

I did not know if you knew this or not, but when you add a picture to this forum, you can add it first to your picture album where your home settings are, then when you post, just click on "add image". All your photo albums will come up to choose from. The picture will be a thumb nail now, and your customers can just click on it and it enlarges. That is what I did before I did this, I got into photography and collected equipment from around the world. I was trained by a lady who use to live in Japan, and worked at the factory for Canon.

 

[Scott64a]

Scott - I wanted you to know that it was you who inspired me to make a funny thread about posting mug shots in the Toker's Den. After meeting your personality, It was our talk about the igloos, I posted that picture and your reply is what got me thinking to make a funny thread for all of us to enjoy. Thanks Scott, you are making a bigger contribution than you think! Work harder, we all want more of that. hehehe

I was very close to a person who had an outdoor grow that covered acres of land, one day I will share that story with you. It is amazing, a person could make a movie out of it! You need to do this indoors for many reasons, and we all want to be a part of that when you are ready. How about next month? hehehehe

That's great to hear!

 

[ReikoX]

You just got a second brother, and it is me! There is another way to look at this and it is easier, that ballast probably does 150 watt and 250 watt bulbs; check to see if this is true. If so, then keep your arrangement and just add a bigger bulb. That was clever what you did to make those screens, but they are on the wrong side of the plant. I would get some boards that are 1" by 1", and cut enough of them to make four screens. Nail the sides together to make a square, not rectangle. Then do this again until you have four of them. What you want is four sides, each side has a completed screen so when you are finished and they are placed in there it will form a box. Hang them by suspeding them with strings from ceiling so you can adjust their height (if ever need be). Now the plants will grow into this screen if the plants are out side this screen apporatus. I was really into screens, and I wanted to share with you my experience.

I feel with more light intensity, higher wattage (250) and closer proximity, you will get less stretching and thicker buds. My hat is off to you, that is not easy to do, grow inside a cabinet. And I am serious, have you thought about what to say to someone who opens up the cabinet to get a towel?

Heat rises, so when you put the 250 watt bulb, put a larger vent hole at the top center of the cabinet. Also put a larger vent hole along the bottom, or on the side at the bottom. What will happen is this, as the heat rises it will pull air conditioning up through the bottom vent. This is how you ventilate audio video equipment in a small space and it works amazingly well. Fans from computers suck, they don't work well, and they go out all the time. This is a more efficient way I just mentioned, it uses science, and not electronics. And in a grow, dependability is very important. Probably more so in a cabinet!

Thanks for following up and helping me! I think the feeling of belonging somewhere is the best feeling in the world, and when doing a grow that hag so many variables it is nice to know you have friends here who cheer you on. But, if my ideas add any to the GVW, then I want 5% percent of the take. hehehehe

I did not know if you knew this or not, but when you add a picture to this forum, you can add it first to your picture album where your home settings are, then when you post, just click on "add image". All your photo albums will come up to choose from. The picture will be a thumb nail now, and your customers can just click on it and it enlarges. That is what I did before I did this, I got into photography and collected equipment from around the world. I was trained by a lady who use to live in Japan, and worked at the factory for Canon.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74044&pictureid=1766255&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

No that is a 150-watt pulse start MH ballast. Got three of them along with a 3' 8-bulb T-5HO from the curb. I don't worry about anyone "grabbing a towel" because all my cabinets are in my locked workshop. I'm a micro grower, and only grow for myself.

The screens are a shortened version of Ichabod Crane's screens. You should check it out in the vertical section. I just recently got those bulb extenders to lower that bulb so that area will fill in better next round.

Yeah, I know how to post thumbnails. I resize my images to 1024x576 and read this site on a mobile phone with no problem. I prefer the larger pictures. Oh, and i use my cell phone (Samsung Note 5) for pictures. Nothing special.

Anyway, drop by my workshop if you have more comments or questions. I don't want to derail this thread too much.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Okay, lets get back on the topic of Heliotropism! In case you are confused as I just was, lets try to clarrify something. The lights under that hood are at two different corners underneath. When the system is running, only one of those two lights are working and after six hours it turns off and the other comes on; hence the full spectrum of the sun's rays. There will be less mass on the canopy due to the light not being centered above the plants, hence it is to one side in the corner. But this is what allowing us for the plants to move; heliotropism. This movement moves the juices inside the plant, and these more healthy chemical reactions to photosynthises makes for a better quality product. This is not therapy, it has been in practice for three years, with about 5 grows each years and yielding right at one gram per watt.

If I was to put lights all over the plants, then you would not experience this heliotropism, it is a trade off, but in my option well worth it because this devolment is working towards a better solution that may one day increase it's yield. Mind you, these are small plants when mature, primarily focusing on just bud growth, and not so much the development of roots, trunk, or limbs. This can only be done by skipping the veg period, and with the lights right on top of the canopy. Otherwise they would grow towards the light and become stretched. The mass of the buds is somewhat impressive, thick solid tops all about 8 inches tall, and with smaller plants we are allowed to have more of them, approx. 38, with two mothers eagerly waiting in the closet, proud of their offspring.

This is a good grow experiment because all during those three years there has been no other things to remark on, no healthy problems what so ever, no foreighn invaders, the same Botainicare nutrients over their chart, and the same results in the smoke report. The strain is the "one hit wonder", and going this cherry phoneme totally organic makes one proud of this amazing substrate which they were grown.

What I am trying to achieve here is not more mass right now, I am pleased with that; I want more heliotropism!

So my idea is to add something I am missing, already in writing this thread I have discovered that making the lights switch off and on more frequently makes the leaves exercise more.

With the help of others coming here to this thread, equipment is being suggested. And since we are also talking about a diverse spectrum of light to create a natural life like sun giving it's full spectrum; one person here mentioned that LED lights have filters, and we could choose the ones we want, and apply them at a certain time of day during the grow. What I want to do is not apply this to LED, but instead to HID lighting. So this is where we are at in this thread. I hope you feel at home here as we further kick this heliotropism idea around. Each of our experiences are different, and we all know our own equipment so coming here and sharing with me is the most important part of this thread. Lets have some fun too, I really enjoy this stuff and hope you have already noticed this. The lights in that picture are 400 watts HPS, and MH; it is a sun system 7, and there are three of them. Very good equipment by the way! But this time, I want to use different equipment since the sun system 7 is no longer available (those are pictures from 2006 taken from my grow on this forum).

Oh, I little about myself, I learned about aeroponics and hydroponics from universities prior to visiting this forum in 2006. One of the areas I researched outside the universities was talking on the Orchid forums, where you will find they share similar problems as us, I was there primarily learning about substrates.

 

[Scott64a]

Sorry to hijack the thread.
I'm excitable LOL


Man, I really think that part of the box that needs to be thought outside of with this technique is that of having to crop or keep them short. Think about it: Shorter stems, even thinner ones, are stiffer than long ones.

From the main stalk on out, the natural shape they are programmed to take is going to give you the most movement in your quest for more natural heliotropism in your box.

Vegging them for a month ain't gonna cut it. Just an observation since growing outdoors and not pruning is what I'm in the middle of right now. I've been observing the natural shape of these plants. The indica crosses are squatty, but still flexible enough to swing, daddy-O. Light penetration should be less of an issue, but then, a light loses intensity the further you go away from it. Hmm... I'm still pondering.



I just wish I could do this, too!!!!



What do you think of a longer veg time and a more natural shape?
More fans to swing around, but spread out like on the NJ:

 

[Chilly Willy]

I would love to have some seeds, and watch as your grow develops. I had my set up just two feet from my bed and when I woke up I got to see this nature in my room. It was wonderful having people on this forum around me, and I loved the science, but those plants just feet from me was the most healthy experience in my whole life by far.

Skipping the veg all together is what I been doing, and it is how I kept my plants small, and just primarily a top that I was growing. The trunks were strong.

So the branches twist and turn with the sun too? That is interesting! I was surprised that the flowers on a plant change direction, I never knew that until last week.

 

[Scott64a]

I would love to have some seeds, and watch as your grow develops. I had my set up just two feet from my bed and when I woke up I got to see this nature in my room. It was wonderful having people on this forum around me, and I loved the science, but those plants just feet from me was the most healthy experience in my whole life by far.

Skipping the veg all together is what I been doing, and it is how I kept my plants small, and just primarily a top that I was growing. The trunks were strong.

So the branches twist and turn with the sun too? That is interesting! I was surprised that the flowers on a plant change direction, I never knew that until last week.

Oh yes.

The stalks move as well. It's more pronounced or noticeable in the fan leaves, but the stalks all lean.

Here's a video of it in action with arctic poppies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MYJEm99MYQ

Not my video, bu tit clearly shows the whole plant leaning toward the sun.

If I were to try and duplicate heliotropism in a grow box, I'd be vegging them for longer than the standard "bud factory" method.

Maybe tinker with letting them get leggy so they can swing, daddy-O.

Here's a little Sinatra to help get you in the swinging mood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2z-OKq0dc0