I lack Carpenter Skills, trying to frame a 7x7 room inside a finished basement..?

[PharmaCan]

thats it for a 22 foot 2x12? I thought it was going to be really expensive.

Would all the joists sit on top of the outside walls? That does seem easier and after I think about it, much stronger than hanging from the side of the wall.


I tried making the wall level and plumb but you know how it goes.

Thanks PC, DHF, NiceShoes

I was kinda surprised myself at the price of lumber. Right now it's 1/2 of what it was two years ago. A board foot is 1"x12"x12", so a 22" 2"x12" is 44 board feet. Lumber is now $229/1,000 b.f. so you can check my math.

Setting the joists on top of the walls is the easiest way to go, in some respects. You need to block every joist to keep them square and if you can't frame a wall square & plumb you might have some difficulty installing the joists this way. Actually, it's pretty simple. Just toe nail up a rim joist and nail your joists in between. If you lay out your spacing on the rim joists on the ground - mark the edge of the joist with a square & put an X on the side the joist goes on - and just get your boards straight one at a time, you'll do fine. If the length of your room is greater than the length of your lumber, be sure to stagger your splices on each wall.

I guess it can be easy to build your walls a little cattywhampus, I just don't remember how to do it that way. If you start with a level surface, most of your vertical members will be the same size, so count what you need and cut all that lumber at the same time, to the same size. If cutting is your problem, invest a couple hundred bucks in a miter saw. You can set-up a jig and cut studs real quick with a miter saw. If you want to make real square cuts with a circular saw, use a framing square (one of the triangular ones) as a guide for your saw. Measure twice, cut once. Remember your saw blade cuts about 1/8", so you need to measure for each cut. (IOW - you can't take an 8' board, make a mark every 2', cut those marks and end up with the same size boards.) Lay out matching top & bottom plates before you start nailing. If you aren't sure about something, get some 10d duplex nails and temp it together then make any adjustment needed. Use the green 16d framing nails, they go in easier. If your wood wants to split, tap the point of the nail with your hammer a couple times, blunt nails split less than pointed ones. Of course, if you want to get really good at carpentry you need to learn how to use "fuck", or derivations thereof, as a noun, verb and adjective in the same sentence.

Good luck with your project. I hope some one that helps!

PC

 

[yamaha_1fan]

I got all the tools, miter saw, table saw, drills, may have a hammer drill here somewhere, at least I used too.

For this project I would probably buy a nail gun. The room size I gave you is for one room, theres more than one. Theres lots of building to be done.


I dont know what happened with the door. Maybe the wall was out of whack, I dont know.

I always cut outside of the line.

What about my door question? Double door prehung available 54+ inches?

Of course, if you want to get really good at carpentry you need to learn how to use "fuck", or derivations thereof, as a noun, verb and adjective in the same sentence.

Shit I am amaster then and have the scars to prove it

 

[PharmaCan]

Dedhedfred - Here on the left coast we use Douglas Fir or Hemlock Fir mostly. I simply looked up the current price for dimensional lumber - $229/1,000 b.f. - and calculated the price. I agree with you, it seems very cheap. But, if you're going to buy a lot of wood from a lumber wholesaler, they're going to give you a cost per 1,000 b.f., not per individual piece of lumber.

Lowe's wants $10.59 for a Douglas Fir 12'x2"x12", so a 22' should be about double that, which would be about double the wholesale price I quoted above (from this source: http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?genericContentID=527 ), which would be an average retail price. Home dePot is $17.66 for a 20' D/F 2x12.

If you're going to buy a shit-load of lumber, you should buy it from a local wholesaler, not Lowe's or HD. You'll probably get it a lot cheaper at the wholesaler. Regardless, even the price at Home DePot is nowhere near $65/stick - no offense intended, Fred. LOL

Yamaha - Yes, you can find a double door the size you want. If you buy an exterior door set, it'll be sealed on all four sides.

BTW - You should be fine with a 22' span using only the 2x12s. You can check the span requirements here: http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp Use #2 Hem Fir ceiling joists @ 16" o/c and you have about 6" to spare.

If you are doing this inside a barn, and the ceiling is not a part of your security, you should look into T-bar ceilings.

PC

 

[yamaha_1fan]

T-Bar meaning drop ceiling? I thought about that but then I need to hang all my hoods. Plus the dropped ceilings need to be hung from something and the roof is 18 feet + high I think.

I would just frame it with wood and drywall everything.


Thanks alot for the info PC and DHF. Like I said, the plans are in the works and when the space is finally obtained, and a layout is designed, I'll have a more accurate plan, etc.

DHF, I appreciate the though on budget. But the budget for this project is rather large and a few $60 beams isnt going to make a difference. The main goal is ease of use once the construction is done. Each rez is going to be tied into a drainline with a valve. Need to drain, turn the valve. A spigot above each rez for filling. Tons of little things like that.

 

[DEDHEDFRED]

Home Depot nor Lowes carries anything over 16' in length where I live Pharma and anything longer comes from the wholesale houses in town that service the builders which is what I am and anything over 16' raises the price exponentially.......

I assure you that 22' 2 x 12`s are not 20 bucks .......

I think 3-2x12`s yellow pine would work but I`d haveta check my codebook cuz steel flitch plates or laminated beams are the norm for that wide of a span........

Just tryin ta keep the shit from tumblin down on yas Yamaha.......You `ve always said you were solo like me so I was trying ta break it down how you could do it by yourself but 22' shit`s hard ta stand up and nail in place..........

Get some help for the framing and such....

Be safe.......DHF......... ........

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Home Depot nor Lowes carries anything over 16' in length where I live Pharma and anything longer comes from the wholesale houses in town that service the builders which is what I am and anything over 16' raises the price exponentially.......

I assure you that 22' 2 x 12`s are not 20 bucks .......

I think 3-2x12`s yellow pine would work but I`d haveta check my codebook cuz steel flitch plates or laminated beams are the norm for that wide of a span........

Just tryin ta keep the shit from tumblin down on yas Yamaha.......You `ve always said you were solo like me so I was trying ta break it down how you could do it by yourself but 22' shit`s hard ta stand up and nail in place..........

Get some help for the framing and such....

Be safe.......DHF......... ........

Oh most def, this next venture is a joint venture (pardon the pun) and I will have some help. Like I said, when I get exact details, I'll let you know.

Even if we have to run one large beam across the middle, then run joists perpendicular to that, thats cool. Also, the only weight is going to be the drywall and ballasts. Not like we are going to walk on the roof.

 

[PharmaCan]

I assure you that 22' 2 x 12`s are not 20 bucks .......

You can assure all you want, what do you think, I just pull this information out of my ass, or guess like you're doing????

"Home dePot is $17.66 for a 20' D/F 2x12." This is off the Home Depot website. I tried to be polite about this, but you had to push it. So let me put this as simple as I can, don't argue with me unless you have facts to back yourself up. It's frustrating to give accurate information and have to argue with someone who is just blowing smoke.

A link to Doug Fir 2x12x20 at Home Depot for $17.66:

http://contractorservices.homedepot...4148&pid=b4e0d16f-6644-4de0-8045-d00d0ed3d259

A link to Hem Fir 2x12x20 at Home Depot for $17.66

http://contractorservices.homedepot...4152&pid=b4e0d16f-6644-4de0-8045-d00d0ed3d259

Same thing with the span charts. Look at them before you say a mid-span beam is necessary, because it isn't. (In any event, it'd be easier and cheaper to raise one side of the ceiling a few inches to shift the load a little and use the 2x12s without a center beam, if the span were questionable - but it's not!)

Dude, I'm not going to tell you how to pound nails or hold your saw, but damn, arguing with facts just makes you look foolish.

PC

 

[MrMortakis$moot]

What do i do if the floor isnt completely level?

for a unlevel floor, they make a auto leveling cover for concrete floors. home depot should carry it. Im not sure of any other ways to level the floor, how unlevel is it?

 

[DEDHEDFRED]

That`s fine Pharma....I`m foolish..........But I also work in the real world not with website prices and span charts ..........

I haveta adhere to the international building code since I`ve been a licensed Homebuilder for over 25 yrs......

I`m not tryin ta push anything Pharma and I never said you were pullin anything out of yer ass..........

Ramble all you want about facts and figures that work on paper.......I fuckin know better ok ?........I`ll not argue with you dewd ..........You`re at a severe disadvantage..........

I came here ta offer Yamaha the cheapest and or safest way ta span that distance and run ceiling joists into the beam......I knew he was a solo act and that`s why I offered the option on howta do it by himself.........

Pharma........Keep yer flamin bullshit to yourself......Lumber prices change daily since it`s a commodity like corn........

I said this once that Douglas Fir nor Hemlock will span that distance without columns underneath , thus why I was telling Yamaha that southern yellow pine is the only wood that`ll span without columns according to my codebook and like I said earlier the last time I hadta span that distance with a beam , The inspector made me bolt 1/4" steel plate to the beam for support........

Instead of punchin buttons on a keyboard call somebody at Home Depot and ask how much a 22' 2 x 12 is and if they`ve got any in stock .......Yellow pine not shit that won`t go the distance without columns ........

You think I`m pullin this shit out my ass ?.........I do this daily....I know what the fuck I`m talkin bout......What experience do you have in the building industry dewd ?............Now who looks foolish........It was never my intention other than to help ....

I certainly didn`t come here to listen to some asshole know-it-all that wouldn`t know which end of a hammer to grab but types real good and knows howta access website price and span charts that don`t mean dick without doing it by the code book........

There`s a lotta weight suspended from the ceiling with a 20 k grow......I wouldn`t want YOU tellin me you`re sorry when all that shit came tumblin down killin the plants and anything or anybody else in the room.........DHF........... ..........

 

[PharmaCan]

That`s fine Pharma....I`m foolish..........But I also work in the real world not with website prices and span charts ..........

I haveta adhere to the international building code since I`ve been a licensed Homebuilder for over 25 yrs......

I`m not tryin ta push anything Pharma and I never said you were pullin anything out of yer ass..........

Ramble all you want about facts and figures that work on paper.......I fuckin know better ok ?........I`ll not argue with you dewd ..........You`re at a severe disadvantage..........

I came here ta offer Yamaha the cheapest and or safest way ta span that distance and run ceiling joists into the beam......I knew he was a solo act and that`s why I offered the option on howta do it by himself.........

Pharma........Keep yer flamin bullshit to yourself......Lumber prices change daily since it`s a commodity like corn........

I said this once that Douglas Fir nor Hemlock will span that distance without columns underneath , thus why I was telling Yamaha that southern yellow pine is the only wood that`ll span without columns according to my codebook and like I said earlier the last time I hadta span that distance with a beam , The inspector made me bolt 1/4" steel plate to the beam for support........

Instead of punchin buttons on a keyboard call somebody at Home Depot and ask how much a 22' 2 x 12 is and if they`ve got any in stock .......Yellow pine not shit that won`t go the distance without columns ........

You think I`m pullin this shit out my ass ?.........I do this daily....I know what the fuck I`m talkin bout......What experience do you have in the building industry dewd ?............Now who looks foolish........It was never my intention other than to help ....

I certainly didn`t come here to listen to some asshole know-it-all that wouldn`t know which end of a hammer to grab but types real good and knows howta access website price and span charts that don`t mean dick without doing it by the code book........

There`s a lotta weight suspended from the ceiling with a 20 k grow......I wouldn`t want YOU tellin me you`re sorry when all that shit came tumblin down killin the plants and anything or anybody else in the room.........DHF........... ..........

Cool rant - But it still doesn't change the facts. Just because you had to build something one way, one time, for a particular application, doesn't mean that your one-time experience is applicable to all circumstances. Regardless, if said unsupported 2x12s were over-spanned, they'd warp, not come tumbling down.

As far as my experience in the building trades, I got my first construction job in 1965. After 40+ years, I'm pretty sure I know which end of a hammer to hold.

In any event, none of this is helpful and I simply don't know what to say to someone who thinks engineering reference material is bunk, or who can't click on a link to Home Depot to verify a price.

BTW - in the real world, there's no such thing as an international building code.

PC

 

[DEDHEDFRED]

Dewd......The international building code is what`s taken over in 2002 over my once southern building code ..........

What`re you smokin.......No rants here Pharma........Pure fact.......Go look it up....You seem to be good at these things without actually having facts but rather website price quotes.......

Get over yourself dewd......If you`re not retired then you should be cuz the code I speak of is nation wide now as we speak but then you wouldn`t know that after 43 yrs......Yeah Right........Dewd I respect experience........But not slingin shit cuz you think noone will contest it cuz YOU say so.........

Go play sum shuffleboard Grandpa........Hell...I`m 52 but I think your doseage needs readjustment.........I stand by my requirements for the room........I wonder if you`ll stand "under" yours with everything hangin from YOUR designed ceiling......

DHF....... ........

 

[yamaha_1fan]

guys cant we just get along?

I appreciate both of you guys helping out.


If you were chicks I would say lets take it to the jello ring but I dont think thats appropiate here

 

[badugi]

Despite some disagreement this is a nice thread. Tagging for future reference.

Being so cheap, I picked up the Black Friday $60 Ryobi 10" miter saw deal along with a $25 Ridgid shop-vac. Dust collection is lacking even w/ 2.5A shop-vac hooked in, but it beats a circular saw, square, and sawhorses. Would'a made life a lot easier on my last room's framing.

 

[PharmaCan]

Dewd......The international building code is what`s taken over in 2002 over my once southern building code ..........

What`re you smokin.......No rants here Pharma........Pure fact.......Go look it up....You seem to be good at these things without actually having facts but rather website price quotes.......

Get over yourself dewd......If you`re not retired then you should be cuz the code I speak of is nation wide now as we speak but then you wouldn`t know that after 43 yrs......Yeah Right........Dewd I respect experience........But not slingin shit cuz you think noone will contest it cuz YOU say so.........

Go play sum shuffleboard Grandpa........Hell...I`m 52 but I think your doseage needs readjustment.........I stand by my requirements for the room........I wonder if you`ll stand "under" yours with everything hangin from YOUR designed ceiling......

DHF....... ........

Fred, you may be an excellent builder, there's no doubt in my mind that you are. And I'm sure that you are ten times smarter than me - not only me but the NAHB and a whole slew of other folks that you seem to categorically dismiss.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is only one way to do things, your way. Actually, I've never pounded a nail in my life, I just make this stuff up as I go along. Now you've found me out and I feel so humiliated. But you know, life isn't easy when you're as stupid as I am, and, man, I was dirt stupid even before the senility in. Now I'm so damn stupid that when I disagree with someone about something, I can't provide facts or empirical data so I just resort to name calling. I hope you'll excuse me for being such an ass. It's arrogance born of stupidity and I just can't seem to get past it.

There's just one thing that confuses me. First you said there is an international building code, then told me how stupid I am when I said there isn't an international building code and excoriated me about the national building code adopted in 2002. Being the dumb-shit that I am, I always assumed that there is a difference between National and International. Maybe you can explain to me why there is no difference. Did the UN adopt an international building code when I wasn't looking? This is all so confusing!!!!

One last thing, whatever you do, don't call Barr Lumber, 909-884-4744, and ask them the price of a 22' d/f 2"x12". They're part of my conspiracy and will tell you that it costs less than $20.

PC

 

[DEDHEDFRED]

You win Dewd..........I`m wrong and you`re right............I`ll say it again........I`ll stand behind everything I`ve said up till now............But.........

I sure wouldn`t stand under ANYTHING you built..........

I agree to disagree with yer bullshit ......You still fail ta realize that Fir or Hemlock won`t span that distance without support underneath..........


Fuck off and eat shit.......Is that plain enough ?.........DHF.......... .........

 

[PharmaCan]

guys cant we just get along?

I appreciate both of you guys helping out.


If you were chicks I would say lets take it to the jello ring but I dont think thats appropiate here

Here's the thing, in most cases DHF would be absolutely right. (Not for the reasons he thinks, but wtf a win is a win anyway you can get it.) If you were building a two-story house with that span, I'd put a girder down the middle and, if you wanted the span open, I'd put a bigger girder down the middle. In 1975 we built my parents beach house with 2x12's spanning 22' for a combo ceiling/floor with the dead load on the floor a big kitchen, a couple small walls and some furniture - live loads have max'd at about 30 people. In 2003 we had to put a beam down the middle of the room because it was starting to sag a little - but a lot of the weakness was caused because of the way the dumb-ass plumber drilled the holes for his drain pipes and significantly weakened the joists. The point is, as far as the span you want, I've been there, done that, been sleeping like a baby under it every time I visit the central coast for the last 30 years.

With your application of the joists being only for a ceiling, the drywall and any and all gear you might hang from the ceiling doesn't amount to diddley squat load wise. There's simply no need to complicate the construction.

If you were chicks I would say lets take it to the jello ring but I dont think thats appropiate here

I could send my wife as a proxy if it'd make you feel any better.




PC

 

[NiceShoes]

http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp?

Wood span calculator.

I am not responsible for any questionable information it gives out.... I just figured it was on par with a couple topics in this thread.

I would have to vote in the wood engineered i-beams. Convenient punch-out-holes for wiring.... they will provide the most in load bearing. They are not too heavy either... Compared to a 22 foot 2x12 I'd bet the comparable i-beam would weigh much less...

It's expensive... but worth it in integrity and convenience.... IMO.


NiceShoes

 

[PharmaCan]

You win Dewd..........I`m wrong and you`re right............I`ll say it again........I`ll stand behind everything I`ve said up till now............But.........

I sure wouldn`t stand under ANYTHING you built..........

I agree to disagree with yer bullshit ......You still fail ta realize that Fir or Hemlock won`t span that distance without support underneath..........


Fuck off and eat shit.......Is that plain enough ?.........DHF.......... .........

How mature!

So the table that I posted and that NiceShoes posted, they're wrong? Why? Because you say so? ROFLMMFAO

It's so funny to see you blowhards self-destruct. In light of overwhelming empirical evidence to the contrary, you insist you are right with no proof whatsoever other than "you said so". Do you really think that cussing, swearing and calling me names makes you look smart? Truly, it makes you look like a nothing-man, a blowhard - someone with a real fragile ego, and probably with good reason.

PC

 

[yamaha_1fan]

PC send her over. If DHF doesnt send someone, she still has to roll around to secure the win.

LOL





Sorry my questions lead to such a pissing match.