I have a question regarding yield

[houndog]

I was wondering what difference it makes in yield if you were to compare 5 gal grow container of Fox Farm soil without added perlite to say a grow container that contains Fox Farm mixed with 40-50% of perlite?

Does the lesser amount of soil decrease the yield or would it be required to use a larger container perhaps 7 gal to compensate for less soil and more perlite, or no difference at all?

Thanks

 

[I'mback]

I was wondering what difference it makes in yield if you were to compare 5 gal grow container of Fox Farm soil without added perlite to say a grow container that contains Fox Farm mixed with 40-50% of perlite?

Does the lesser amount of soil decrease the yield or would it be required to use a larger container perhaps 7 gal to compensate for less soil and more perlite, or no difference at all?

Thanks

Give it a whirl and get back to us

 

[moose eater]

With decreased aeration, you'll get more stout delivery of nutes due to a more dense nute 'package', and run a risk of burn (especially if you're talking Ocean Forest), as well as less air, creating more chance of fungal infections, less healthy roots, etc.

I think even Fox Farms used to suggest cutting their OF with lesser intense mix.

I have run a well-aerated mix of organics with Fox Farms OF in small amounts, and my (size) 600 Classic pots would utilize their nutes in the mix more quickly, require more feeding, but often result in more plants per sq. ft., and larger yields.

Comparing that to my 1200 Classic and 2000 Classic pots (with 9 pots per 16 sq. ft, versus 16 pots of the Classic 600s in the same space), with similar mix, more room for roots, and less required feedings beyond the mix in the pots, I would say that more plants, with less room for roots, gave me more (but not necessarily superior) weed.

Those are my observations.

BTW, with the Classic 600s, a friend and fellow grower, assessed the rate with which my mix was running out of nutes, requiring more feed, and the decreased time between feeding, as a result of the smaller pots, and he defined it as a "soilless mix (quasi) hydroponic set-up." Which mildly offended me at that time, as I was biased against hydro back then.

Anyway, that's MY experience with something CLOSE to your proposal.

 

[DeathHouse]

I would not add more than a 1/3 perlite in any soil mix. Too much loss of organic material and all that entails imo.

 

[h.h.]

With FF and perlite. 30%

Mixing your own soil and multitasking aeration amendments. 40%

Can’t say exactly. I play by ear.

By multitasking. I mean generally high CEC. Vermiculite, zeolite, char.
If I cut back every so slightly on peat, I can use more rice hulls.
That’s basically what I’m doing. If I’m adding nutrients, I add the same amount. Maybe more.
More aeration means a more receptive soil. A harder working soil. Better utilization.

Teach your soil to fish.

 

[Man at Arms]

I’ve always run FFOF Soil straight with nothing added. I’ve yet to have a problem that the soil is to hot.

 

[CannaRed]

I hear alot of people say foxfarms is too hot, and alot of others say it's great.

This leads me to believe that it is strain dependent (like everything else)

 

[houndog]

Thanks for the replies, it would appear that more oxygen to the roots promotes greater growth and yield.

 

[aridbud]

Remember that perlite works its way to the top. We use it and sand if using FF. Prefer Fertiloam or Black Gold soil or other soils, even DIY. Add a little BuffaLoam and alfalfa meal, worm castings.

 

[houndog]

ratios, whats the difference

ratios, whats the difference

I have been growing my own for almost 50 years and have had experience indoor and out. I was legal in Canada for over a decade because of a medical licence and now it is legal but I still have my medical licence, my doctor increased my limit from 2 grams per day to 3 grams recently. But all this experience still leaves me with things to learn and I still make mistakes, too many sometimes.

Yet, all this time I never considered what happens to yield if I decrease the soil content and boost perlite. How does the different ratio affect yield. What is more important to yield, less or more soil in ratio to perlite and container size?

Does less soil(5gal) decrease yield when increasing perlite to 30-40%. Which leaves me with about 1 1/2 gal to 2gal of less soil per container. Do I need to compensate by using a 7 gal container to up the ratio of soil to perlite- or maybe it does not make a beneficial difference?

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

[Drewsif]

Depends on what built your roots, Pbrms native to the soil or Root Rogaine XL Plus from the grow store.

 

[I'mback]

I have been growing my own for almost 50 years and have had experience indoor and out. I was legal in Canada for over a decade because of a medical licence and now it is legal but I still have my medical licence, my doctor increased my limit from 2 grams per day to 3 grams recently. But all this experience still leaves me with things to learn and I still make mistakes, too many sometimes.

Yet, all this time I never considered what happens to yield if I decrease the soil content and boost perlite. How does the different ratio affect yield. What is more important to yield, less or more soil in ratio to perlite and container size?

Does less soil(5gal) decrease yield when increasing perlite to 30-40%. Which leaves me with about 1 1/2 gal to 2gal of less soil per container. Do I need to compensate by using a 7 gal container to up the ratio of soil to perlite- or maybe it does not make a beneficial difference?

Thanks again for the discussion.

You can grow anything in anything including but not ltd to chard's of glass, providing the appropriate environment.

This might be related to bonsai but... https://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/2008/01/warren-hill-soil-experiment.html but applies to everything we grow.

The containers are "pond basket". They do the same job as "air pots or cloth pots" they prune the roots, causing back budding of the roots which create the fine feeder roots "capillaries" which, in turn make and extremely EFFICIENT root mass.

That being said, this is only 1 piece of the puzzle.

The cation exchange capacity of (perlite) is pretty limited IMO when compared to turface and organics (whether they be granulated fur bark or peat or soil for that matter) and totally ZERO with straight granite (chicken grit).

The article encompasses one test only. It was mere evidence of what I already knew, based on hands on real world results. This technique is not my own (screened pots) but I saw the results and are simply amazing.

Based on previous results I apply those lessons learned to our growing habits, with good success.

If you allow your roots to become lazy e.g like in plastic pots where, the main roots heads to the bottom of the pot to drink, because it found the source (bottom of the pot) the roots will continue to grow and circle the bottom of the pot until they become root bound and, will not force the plant to back bud, creating the fine feeder roots we seek. The more finer the roots, the more uptake your plant is capable of. Although we always have roots back budding as seen in DWC applications, it is nothing compared to "air pruning". My entire root ball colonizes the pot (top to bottom) with "fine hair" roots.

Once I have 4 serrated leaves on my girls, they go into a 4" pot. At week 4 of veg they get repotted into a 3gal smart pot. I water/feed only twice a week under the schedule of: (W D D F D D W). I vary the amount of liquid the plant receives so I can hit the nail on the head (moisture meter sitting right on the line or slightly below the line of moist/dry).

When I water my girls I water only the outside perimeter of the pot, causing the plant to search for water. This grow lateral roots vice roots reaching for the bottome of the pot. Natural permeation will ensure that the plant (although not watered) will receive the proper amount of water and nutrients, due to the cation exchange capacity of your soil.

Over time, I have found that 1.5l per watering/feeding session works well for my schedule and environment. Occasionally I see myself having to drop one plant to a lower capacity to maintain her on schedule. This usually equates to watering/feeding 1.25l only (for that one).

Hope this helps

PS: I see many mixes that contain both perlite and vermiculite and. although the author will substantiate his reasons why, they fight each other.

Perlire creates oxygen spaces in the medium whereas vermiculite is a moisture retentive medium. This might be well and good in EXTREMELY dry desert environment but, vermiculite has a tendency to turn into mush in your container, depriving your roots of oxygen (as it fills the air pockets) you so painstakingly tried to accomplish with your mix, as the particles collapse.

A better candidate for vermiculite is turface which not only has the capacity of retaining 50 times its own weight with water, it retains its form, providing the desired oxygenation we seek.

 

[Man at Arms]

You can grow anything in anything including but not ltd to chard's of glass, providing the appropriate environment.

This might be related to bonsai but... https://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/2008/01/warren-hill-soil-experiment.html but applies to everything we grow.

The containers are "pond basket". They do the same job as "air pots or cloth pots" they prune the roots, causing back budding of the roots which create the fine feeder roots "capillaries" which, in turn make and extremely EFFICIENT root mass.

That being said, this is only 1 piece of the puzzle.

The cation exchange capacity of (perlite) is pretty limited IMO when compared to turface and organics (whether they be granulated fur bark or peat or soil for that matter) and totally ZERO with straight granite (chicken grit).

The article encompasses one test only. It was mere evidence of what I already knew, based on hands on real world results. This technique is not my own (screened pots) but I saw the results and are simply amazing.

Based on previous results I apply those lessons learned to our growing habits, with good success.

If you allow your roots to become lazy e.g like in plastic pots where, the main roots heads to the bottom of the pot to drink, because it found the source (bottom of the pot) the roots will continue to grow and circle the bottom of the pot until they become root bound and, will not force the plant to back bud, creating the fine feeder roots we seek. The more finer the roots, the more uptake your plant is capable of. Although we always have roots back budding as seen in DWC applications, it is nothing compared to "air pruning". My entire root ball colonizes the pot (top to bottom) with "fine hair" roots.

Once I have 4 serrated leaves on my girls, they go into a 4" pot. At week 4 of veg they get repotted into a 3gal smart pot. I water/feed only twice a week under the schedule of: (W D D F D D W). I vary the amount of liquid the plant receives so I can hit the nail on the head (moisture meter sitting right on the line or slightly below the line of moist/dry).

When I water my girls I water only the outside perimeter of the pot, causing the plant to search for water. This grow lateral roots vice roots reaching for the bottome of the pot. Natural permeation will ensure that the plant (although not watered) will receive the proper amount of water and nutrients, due to the cation exchange capacity of your soil.

Over time, I have found that 1.5l per watering/feeding session works well for my schedule and environment. Occasionally I see myself having to drop one plant to a lower capacity to maintain her on schedule. This usually equates to watering/feeding 1.25l only (for that one).

Hope this helps

PS: I see many mixes that contain both perlite and vermiculite and. although the author will substantiate his reasons why, they fight each other.

Perlire creates oxygen spaces in the medium whereas vermiculite is a moisture retentive medium. This might be well and good in EXTREMELY dry desert environment but, vermiculite has a tendency to turn into mush in your container, depriving your roots of oxygen (as it fills the air pockets) you so painstakingly tried to accomplish with your mix, as the particles collapse.

A better candidate for vermiculite is turface which not only has the capacity of retaining 50 times its own weight with water, it retains its form, providing the desired oxygenation we seek.

Awesome info RB. I like your feed schedule. When you do feed them once a a week what % are you feeding based on manufacture recommended? I was following your schedule of watering every 3 days and feeding once a week at about 40% strength of recommendation from manufacture but now switched to feeding them every watering at 20% of the recommended still watering every 3 days

 

[I'mback]

Awesome info RB. I like your feed schedule. When you do feed them once a a week what % are you feeding based on manufacture recommended? I was following your schedule of watering every 3 days and feeding once a week at about 40% strength of recommendation from manufacture but now switched to feeding them every watering at 20% of the recommended still watering every 3 days

Nothing wrong with your approach good buddy e.g reduce to 20 from 40 and apply twice a week.

I just switched nutes this run. I went to Remo from General Organics... too many problems with GO. The girls are doing much better this run. They are doing exceptionally well considering that I have manifold my girls this run. I follow the mfr recommended dosage, as I was also told by a local to do so, and I have.

I don't have a before and after pic but, they were fed on Sunday (week 1 of bloom was Mon 20 Oct). I couldn't believe how they perked up in 24 hrs.

 

[afroman25]

I’ve always run FFOF Soil straight with nothing added. I’ve yet to have a problem that the soil is to hot.

Ive done the same. Ive grown autos in ffof and only watered with calmag and molasses and have had no issues. Maybe a ewc tea going into flower but thats about it. Never had issues with it being too hot for seedlings.

 

[aridbud]

I hear alot of people say foxfarms is too hot, and alot of others say it's great.

This leads me to believe that it is strain dependent (like everything else)

A lot depends on where they scoop up peat. Quit using it years ago after variability between bags....so doubtful it's 'strain dependent'.

We use similar recipe of Coot's Mix, and don't have to supplement until mid way through bloom stage. Largely, it's quality soil, earthworm castings, alfalfa meal, azomite.

 

[Man at Arms]

Ive done the same. Ive grown autos in ffof and only watered with calmag and molasses and have had no issues. Maybe a ewc tea going into flower but thats about it. Never had issues with it being too hot for seedlings.

I usually start feeding my plants once they’ve gone to 12/12. Usually replant twice before flowering and I figure the FFOF has enough nutrients to maintain healthy veg. Never an issue

 

[mexweed]

happy frog is where it's at, more perlite sort of defeats the purpose of a nutrient dense soil, too much aeration doesn't allow the nutrients to 'cook' in the water long enough, if you were to increase drainage you will probably be watering more and need to use bottled stuff