I don't think I believe in entourage effect

[Sam_Skunkman]

Hush,
Maybe what you need to do is to first test 25mg 100% pure THC, then try 25mg 100% pure THC spiked with a tiny amount of pure Limonene or pure myrcene, or pure Pinene or pure linalool, or a few of the other terpenes that can modify or potentiate the pure THC.
100% pure THC is flat, boring and has no individuality compared to herbal Cannabis or hashish that is high in the right terpenes.

Rob and I found 25mg 100% pure THC to be only half as strong subjectively as 25mg resin heads from Skunk #1 that were terpene-rich, but only 50% THC by weight.

It was me and Rob Clarke and 10 other volunteers that did this back in early 2000 and we reported the results to the Cannabis community.

All 12 subjects reported the same results, and the test was double-blind, vaped in a volcano with a 100 question organoleptic survey filled in before and after each of the tests, all subjects were in agreement as to which terpenes did modify, as well as how they modified the pure THC as well as a few that also potentiated THC.

How come they were all in agreement with a double-blind test? The subjects each had their own preferences as to which terpene/THC combo they liked best, but all agreed with the modifying effects from each terpene with the THC also they were all in agreement as to which terpenes were able to potentiate THC, like with Limonene, Myrcene, Pinene and a few more.

Your problem may be that you think you can tell the terpene contents by taste or smell alone? I doubt you can do that, Rob and I could guess but were wrong as often as we were right, you need known terpenes as well as a 100% pure THC to use in the trials, many people try to add a single terpene to almost pure THC that does have small amounts of other Cannabinoids and/or terpenes in it, I can assure you that is not how to do it any contents besides pure THC will not have the same effects as 100% pure THC, believe me.

I have also found that people with a head cold or very poor sense of smell get much less modification and potentiation of the pure THC, maybe the Modification/Potentiation is somehow manifested by the sense of smell as I saw a recent paper that said it is not modified, potentiated through the CB1/CB2 receptors, but the author does agree that terpenes do modify/potentiate THC and is busy looking for how terpenes do modify/potentiate THC and other Cannabinoids, when she publishes the paper I will send it to you.

By the way, Ethan Russo is in total agreement with me and Rob and the other 10 subjects in the trial, maybe ask him why you have found no entourage effects?

As for the other Cannabinoids while CBD does modify THC. And CBC, and THCV, as well as CBN and Delta 8THC does to a lesser degree, none of the other Cannabinoids get you high like THC does, Delta 8 THC does get you high but it is not directly biosynthesized by the plant, like CBN it is a degradation product of degraded THC caused by age, oxidized by oxygen or light or other factors like heat.
Years ago I had tested the (THC) and cannabinoids of different varieties of herbal Cannabis and found the ones with the highest THC and little other Cannabinoids were not the ones that people reported got them the highest, I thought at the time the difference might be that the terpenes did make the difference as the ones people said were strongest consitantly had higher levels of terpenes to my nose.

-SamS

I just thought this might get an interesting discussion going... I have tried and tried to believe in entourage effect. It seems to connect dots that otherwise haven't been connected and it feels good to believe in it. But I have experienced no reason to believe it's real. Hell, I don't even experience it as a placebo effect. So allow me to explain...

I understand entourage effect to involve the synergy of all the various cannabinoids as well as the terpenoids contained in a given sample of cannabis. I guess I should say that I'm talking about the terpene inclusion of the effect. I can't say one way or the other about synergies between the cannabinoids. But regarding terpenes, it just doesn't seem to add up to me. I've had lemon-tasting bud that made me fall asleep and I've had myrcene-tasting bud that kept me awake when I was tired. I've had flavorless buds that seemed to have the same effects of phenotypic cousins that had all of the flavors. I've had concentrates made from flavored flowers that get all of the flavors stripped out, and the effect is very similar to the source flowers. I've also had distillates that have had terpenoids added back to the product and I never feel like that adds dimension to the distillate high...

So I just don't get it. Maybe others can change my mind. But it seems to me that it's a hypothesis that doesn't deserve to be pushed as much as it is. Am I alone in thinking any of this?

I'd be much more inclined to believe that cannabinoid ratios are creating certain synergies that cause the effects we look for. Something along the lines of, like 50/50 THC/CBD ratios creating that relaxing but not couchlocked feeling... inclusions of CBN having something to do with couch lock... CBG causing visual distortions... yet-unknown ratios of various cannabinoids causing the introspective, spiritual effects...

...I just don't think terps are factoring in as much as we are told they are.

 

[yesum]

Good one Sam. ^^ I still think there are other chemicals that can affect the high and we may not even know what they are yet.

 

[troutman]

Extracting pure Terps from Cannabis is easy if you have the right equipment.
Here's a how-to.

Terpene extraction video

I recently collected 13mL's of Cannabis Terps using basically the same setup. Haven't tried them yet.
My 1st experiment was collecting limonene from orange peels and that was nice and easy. 90% of the
Terps come over in the 1st 30 minutes once the water starts boiling.

BTW: Pure Terps taste bad. Don't ask, I had to test a drop.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I was going to check the Flavonoids next but when I found out that the flavonoids were deactivated by vaping or combustion I never did any tests on flavonoids.
They are active orally but I was checking what effected THC potency via smoking not orally consumed, I hope someone does trials with oral Flavonoids and THC as I will not be doing it.
They do need to test 100% pure THC, not THCA with each flavonoid, I still wonder if they have any modifying or potentiating if taken orally.
-SamS

Good one Sam. ^^ I still think there are other chemicals that can affect the high and we may not even know what they are yet.

 

[ozzieAI]

i make edibles using terpenes and it allows me to 'dictate' the type of effect i want/get depending on the manipulation of the terpenes ie: i can make one strain of cannabis have multiple effects...using a range of 1 - 1.5%...

terpenes are way powerful...

Years ago I had tested the (THC) and cannabinoids of different varieties of herbal Cannabis and found the ones with the highest THC and little other Cannabinoids were not the ones that people reported got them the highest, I thought at the time the difference might be that the terpenes did make the difference as the ones people said were strongest consitantly had higher levels of terpenes to my nose.

-SamS

this was my experience as well....terpenes rock...if used properly...

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsomega.7b01130

 

[SuperBadGrower]

I have also found that people with a head cold or very poor sense of smell get much less modification and potentiation of the pure THC, maybe the Modification/Potentiation is somehow manifested by the sense of smell as I saw a recent paper that said it is not modified, potentiated through the CB1/CB2 receptors, but the author does agree that terpenes do modify/potentiate THC and is busy looking for how terpenes do modify/potentiate THC and other Cannabinoids, when she publishes the paper I will send it to you.

This flicked a switch... Now I understand why smoking is not enjoyable when you have a cold. It's like there are 0 effects

 

[h.h.]

I’ve used creamer in my coffee forever.
If I drink black coffee, it doesn’t have the same effect.
Sure it wakes me up but I don’t know I’m awake.

The first time I vaped. I found myself doing stupid shit. I didn’t realize I was buzzed.

Terpenes are the bell to Pablov’s dog.
We’ve conditioned our meditation.

Now to do pure THC while cutting lemons in a pine forest. Sensory overload.
I like the taste and smell.
Part of the overall experience.

 

[armedoldhippy]

Now to do pure THC while cutting lemons in a pine forest. Sensory overload.
I like the taste and smell.
Part of the overall experience.

THIS deserves +rep, but i'm out...STILL! aint been here since last night ? hmmm... anyway, i'll catch up with you later.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Terpenes absolutely have an effect on you. It's not a conditioning thing.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Terpenes absolutely have an effect on you. It's not a conditioning thing.

If you heat then huff them in a rag or bag is it like huffing Krylon? Terpene-free, mostly-THCA isolate is no different for me, as posted in the threads where I had the same argument with Sam.

 

[Gry]

Yet one more thread where I am left feeling like I watched a ball sent soaring.

 

[dddaver]

Honestly, I've only read the first couple pages so far. It'll be interesting to see what Sam has to say about this.

But I have to agree with Medfaced. I think it's mostly marketing and hype. And I agree with Hippy is saying because you can smoke different parts of the same bud and experience different effects. And further, no two people will ever experience the same exact effects from smoking the same strain.

There are literally millions of different combos of cannabinoids, terpenes, or what have you, in weed. That is one of the thi9ngs I like best about it. Always different.

So trying to quantify particular effects or even saying what one cannabinoid or terpene does is not real. As far as terpene entourage, I don't believe it. I thought terpenes in plants just gave them certain smells or tastes, not psychoactive properties.

 

[dddaver]

Google: "Terpenes (/ˈtɜːrpiːn/) are a large and diverse class of organic compounds, produced by a variety of plants, particularly conifers, and by some insects. They often have a strong odor and may protect the plants that produce them by deterring herbivores and by attracting predators and parasites of herbivores."

 

[numberguy]

dddaver, if not terpene's and cannabinoids what do you attribute the variation in high's to then? You must be very much more sensitive than I to variations in weed, from the same plant I find it to be vary consistent. I have found effects to be pretty consistent from one person to the next, but there are all ways exceptions. I pick product knowing how it will affect other people because of how it affects me and I can not chance to be wrong. The reason each person might cause you to think it is the weed that affects them differently is because no two brains are the same and no two people will pick the same words to describe what and how they feel when high. Am an old dog looking to learn new tricks.

 

[ozzieAI]

here is something to try put some myrcene into essential oil heater and see what how it affects you after you are stoned...

 

[clearheaded]

I know for a fact that Beta-caryophyllene when inhaled will bring you down and calm you out if you get too high and have a panic attack. I've seen it first hand.

But entourage effects to me are "Yes, I'm high. But I'm also really relaxed. My muscles aren't tensed up anymore. And I'm hungry now." It's as simple as that as far as I'm concerned.

smelling salts wake u up too... other stimuli isnt really proof of entourage effect.

my sense is several things at play set setting, previous experience, aromatherapy, and also harshness of the smoke making more muddy sleepy effects, and terpenes driving thc faster into your blood/brain(perhaps where sense of no ceiling). cbd "smoothing" out effects. my sense is alot more complicated then just myrcene for WLD.

 

[dddaver]

dddaver, if not terpene's and cannabinoids what do you attribute the variation in high's to then?

I did not say that therefore the rest of your post is not relevant to my position.



Let me try to explain better. I am agreeing with others that even from smoking different parts of the same bud one can get different effects. It's not just me that says that. Many people do.


What I'm trying to get at here, IME there is not just one terpene or cannabinoid that is going to give a certain effect in a bud. Because while it is true that certain concentrations contribute certain effects, there HAS to be variation. We're not talking about a homogeneous synthetic chemical here. It's a plant.


I thought this thread was about the entourage effect. That means to me all the physical contents in the weed combining to produce certain effects. In each small portion of any given bud there has to be varied concentrations of any terpenes, cannibinoids, CBD, THCV, THCA, whathaveyou. It is physically impossible to have such a consistent concentration where each hit is exactly the same as another. Thank God.


But I'm not here to argue.. Giving opinion and discussion is one thing. Pointed personal arguing is another. Bye.

 

[CosmicCharlie]

I wonder if it has anything to do with being a “super taster” or not?

Super-tasters have more and larger taste buds than normal people and can detect smells and flavors that some people can’t or may be more sensitive to smells/taste.

I know some of my friends have said that all weed pretty much tastes and makes them feel the same way.

I know that I qualify as a “Super taster” and I can definitely feel the differences and taste the differences between every different kind of cannabis I have smoked...

Just some thoughts...

Perhaps it is this relationship with the Terpenes and also the major part of different people having different amounts of the different Cannabinoid Receptors?

 

[CannaRed]

For the years I've heard this.
This bud makes me sleepy, this one lets me get work done while still having a buzz.

But my experience has been- one day this bud wakes me up, and other days this same bud makes me sleepy.

I think Cosmic has a point about being a "super taster". If I can't smell the same notes and nuances out of the same bud that he's sniffing, will those terpenes still effect me the same way as him?

I notice that the one thing that gets me higher is leaving my house. I can sit here all day and smoke, and just get mad that my wife is higher than me off of just one puff. But then hop in the truck and goto Walmart or something and suddenly I'm off in space.

I think there is lots of factors. Set and setting plays a bigger role for me, but all of us are different, just like each bud is different.

There has also been days where ive gotten much higher if the same buds I've been smoking all week. I think our body chemistry on any given day also modulates the buzz by what our bodies are more apt dissolve or absorb that day.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

I wonder if it has anything to do with being a “super taster” or not?

Super-tasters have more and larger taste buds than normal people and can detect smells and flavors that some people can’t or may be more sensitive to smells/taste.

I know some of my friends have said that all weed pretty much tastes and makes them feel the same way.

I know that I qualify as a “Super taster” and I can definitely feel the differences and taste the differences between every different kind of cannabis I have smoked...

Just some thoughts...

Perhaps it is this relationship with the Terpenes and also the major part of different people having different amounts of the different Cannabinoid Receptors?

Just yesterday I had a buddy of mine tell me he thought his headbanger and gg#4 produced the same smoke. My mind was blown. Aside from the fuel notes they have nothing in common. After asking a few questions he barely agreed that after over indulging the gg#4 was more sedating and the headbanger was more up and trippy.

Always surprised when someone says they think most weed is the same.