I don't think I believe in entourage effect

[hush]

I just thought this might get an interesting discussion going... I have tried and tried to believe in entourage effect. It seems to connect dots that otherwise haven't been connected and it feels good to believe in it. But I have experienced no reason to believe it's real. Hell, I don't even experience it as a placebo effect. So allow me to explain...

I understand entourage effect to involve the synergy of all the various cannabinoids as well as the terpenoids contained in a given sample of cannabis. I guess I should say that I'm talking about the terpene inclusion of the effect. I can't say one way or the other about synergies between the cannabinoids. But regarding terpenes, it just doesn't seem to add up to me. I've had lemon-tasting bud that made me fall asleep and I've had myrcene-tasting bud that kept me awake when I was tired. I've had flavorless buds that seemed to have the same effects of phenotypic cousins that had all of the flavors. I've had concentrates made from flavored flowers that get all of the flavors stripped out, and the effect is very similar to the source flowers. I've also had distillates that have had terpenoids added back to the product and I never feel like that adds dimension to the distillate high...

So I just don't get it. Maybe others can change my mind. But it seems to me that it's a hypothesis that doesn't deserve to be pushed as much as it is. Am I alone in thinking any of this?

I'd be much more inclined to believe that cannabinoid ratios are creating certain synergies that cause the effects we look for. Something along the lines of, like 50/50 THC/CBD ratios creating that relaxing but not couchlocked feeling... inclusions of CBN having something to do with couch lock... CBG causing visual distortions... yet-unknown ratios of various cannabinoids causing the introspective, spiritual effects...

...I just don't think terps are factoring in as much as we are told they are.

 

[Cvh]

 

[armedoldhippy]

you may well be right. but...an entourage could be as small as 1 or 2 others, it is not necessary that ALL possible components interact . i can tell a difference between just high CBD weed & a blend of it & some good weed used as pain meds or sleep aids. as small of a % that some cannabinoids are in relation to CBD & delta 9 THC, it would not surprise me if they are but background noise. much yet to be learned...

 

[hush]

you may well be right. but...an entourage could be as small as 1 or 2 others, it is not necessary that ALL possible components interact . i can tell a difference between just high CBD weed & a blend of it & some good weed used as pain meds or sleep aids. as small of a % that some cannabinoids are in relation to CBD & delta 9 THC, it would not surprise me if they are but background noise. much yet to be learned...

Yeah I probably should have titled the thread differently, but what I'm referring to is the inclusion of terps under the entourage effect umbrella.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

I have a similar idea...... I totally believe in the entourage effect. I just think some of the less common terpenes and cannabinoids have a quick tolerance build up.

Too many times I have found a holy grail flavor or buzz only to find it was nothing great after burning a few.

There is obviously some complicated science happening with the millions of potential different ratios.

 

[MedFaced]

I think there are lots and lots of marketing bullshit being used to sell products. Lots of bullshit “studies” that validate one theory or another. Consumers eat it up and feel “informed.” Consumers that don’t agree are “uninformed.” Sellers that want to sell a product need reasons why their product is better than the others. Focus on a terp, highlight all the “science” of their product. Much the same way a brewer that focuses on IPAs will advertise IBUs or AVB. More IBUs/avb doesn’t mean better beer, but folks chase that stuff because it’s something they can “know.” One brags about drinking the beer with the highest IBU/avb or this ratio of cannabis makes movies good and that one makes you sleep. I don’t feel many of our observations are rooted in science, just individual experiences combined with good marketing.

The same exact strain of cannabis can hit me different ways depending on how Im feeling at a particular moment. State of mind in relation to consumption/effects is overlooked IMO.

 

[EsterEssence]

I believe they have changed the name to the ensemble effect, where the different canabanoids and terpenes work in harmony to create different effects due to the various amounts in different varieties of cannabis, and or hemp for CBD products. I totally believe the different varieties of cannabis have different effects...

 

[armedoldhippy]

I totally believe the different varieties of cannabis have different effects...

agree wholeheartedly. i have gotten different flavors/effects etc from different parts of the same BUD out of a bag while doing one-hits. weed is FAR from a homogeneous substance. if it was, it would be as boring as K2 & Spice & other shit out there. VIVA LA DIFFERENCE!

 

[White Beard]

I just thought this might get an interesting discussion going... I have tried and tried to believe in entourage effect. It seems to connect dots that otherwise haven't been connected and it feels good to believe in it. But I have experienced no reason to believe it's real. Hell, I don't even experience it as a placebo effect. So allow me to explain...

I understand entourage effect to involve the synergy of all the various cannabinoids as well as the terpenoids contained in a given sample of cannabis. I guess I should say that I'm talking about the terpene inclusion of the effect. I can't say one way or the other about synergies between the cannabinoids. But regarding terpenes, it just doesn't seem to add up to me. I've had lemon-tasting bud that made me fall asleep and I've had myrcene-tasting bud that kept me awake when I was tired. I've had flavorless buds that seemed to have the same effects of phenotypic cousins that had all of the flavors. I've had concentrates made from flavored flowers that get all of the flavors stripped out, and the effect is very similar to the source flowers. I've also had distillates that have had terpenoids added back to the product and I never feel like that adds dimension to the distillate high...

So I just don't get it. Maybe others can change my mind. But it seems to me that it's a hypothesis that doesn't deserve to be pushed as much as it is. Am I alone in thinking any of this?

I'd be much more inclined to believe that cannabinoid ratios are creating certain synergies that cause the effects we look for. Something along the lines of, like 50/50 THC/CBD ratios creating that relaxing but not couchlocked feeling... inclusions of CBN having something to do with couch lock... CBG causing visual distortions... yet-unknown ratios of various cannabinoids causing the introspective, spiritual effects...

...I just don't think terps are factoring in as much as we are told they are.

My fifty years with weed tells me that the entourage effect is real: and no ‘fragment’ or active ingredient by itself is going to produce the range of effects *I* frankly expect from use (based on experience). It also tells me that however marvelous terpenes may be, they’re also volatile and short-lived: the fresh-from-the-jar grower experience doesn’t necessarily get carried to the end user.

TL;DR = terpenes may be terrific, but they’re only part of the entourage if they haven’t wandered off (volatilized) yet...entourage will carry on without

 

[shithawk420]

Lol I thought this thread was about celebrity Entourages!This is a good thread.i never really bought the whole terpene thing myself.

 

[St. Phatty]

Isn't Twerking an example of Entourage Effect ?

Smiley Toys R Us, or whatever her name is, Twerks at some concert.

Then everybody else is Twerking.

They're Twerking in their Tweets.

 

[watts]

I liked the HBO show Entourage.

 

[Hookahhead]

I agree it’s a lot more complicated than most media/information makes it sound.

Around the same time the weed world was getting hooked on terps, my wife and all of her girlfriends were hooked on “DoTerra” essential oils. As an outsider looking in, it was hard for me to believe all of the sales propaganda.. which parallels the weed industry in my opinion. Remember, essential oils, terpenes, flavonoids, etc have had huge industries and research interest behind them long before we “discovered” them. So imagine my surprise when my wife comes home with all of these little vials and starts sniffing them like a coke fiend. Looking at her cute little handout, she tells me here try this.. It’s a citrus blend and it energizes and invigorates the mind. Here try this one it’s hardwood mix and it fortifies the body and is grounding. Oh this one is my favorite, it’s a Spring flower medley, which is relaxing and improves your immune system! By the time I was done I only had a head ache from smelling so many and listening to her preach their benefits. It was almost strong enough to ignore the fact that she was buying some of the most common essential oils at $30 per 15ml vial.

I understand the allure, who wouldn’t want to be cured just by inhaling some fantastic aromatics. Unfortunately, most of the effects that are reported are hard to repeat in clinical studies. Inhalation isn’t a typical treatment method, and is hard to gauge how much of a sample is actually administered. There is also a lot of strong personal memory associations with smells, which can skew your perception. For instance Lavender is known to have calming effects. It’s main constituent is linalool, which is also the highest terpene in papaya. However, papaya scented candles or bath products aren’t popular because consumers don’t equate it with relaxation.

I don’t disagree that there is potential benefits from terpenes, it’s simply a facet of traditional herbal medicine. Sadly, it’s very difficult to actually discern what those effects actually are, and are likely to be different for everyone. That’s why I think the default (and probably best) advice has been to search until you find something that you like, and explore from there rather than seeking out specific effects based off lab numbers that can change based off the selected sample.

 

[GOT_BUD?]

I know for a fact that Beta-caryophyllene when inhaled will bring you down and calm you out if you get too high and have a panic attack. I've seen it first hand.

But entourage effects to me are "Yes, I'm high. But I'm also really relaxed. My muscles aren't tensed up anymore. And I'm hungry now." It's as simple as that as far as I'm concerned.

 

[SuperBadGrower]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...l effects,major components of forest aerosols.

Terpenes from Forests and Human Health


This is a study on a thing called forest bathing and other benefits of some terpenes which are also found in weed. It seems there is a solid basis to the claim that terpenes have real biological effects. I learned about this information form this interesting presentation:

https://youtu.be/fa1u3uuxM6A?t=250

The man mentions that it is a complex orchestra of terpenes, but also flavinoids and other compounds which make up the entourage effect. I guess the information is in stages of infancy, it's perhaps too basic to say that "myrcene does X", as the OP wrote

That said, to me weed is pretty much weed, the differences are also not huge to me. Like beer and beer.

 

[watts]

Need a terpene candle

 

[Teddybrae]

Hey Phatty ... can you send me a link to NUDE twerking please? I bet if you posted one there would be an entourage of interested male ICMaggers ...


I know this is the usual site address but for some reason I think everyone here is mad except for Phatty and Watts. Oh ... and me.

Isn't Twerking an example of Entourage Effect ?

Smiley Toys R Us, or whatever her name is, Twerks at some concert.

Then everybody else is Twerking.

They're Twerking in their Tweets.

 

[Gry]

Sam has written a good deal about it over the years, interesting reading.

 

[YukonKronic]

Sam has written a good deal about it over the years, interesting reading.

You beat me to it.. Sam wrote a bunch about this. I’m pretty sure it’s real.. regular smokers probably have more amazing brains than we give them credit for in so far as getting used to being fuuuuucked up and figuring out how to function pretty well anyway..

Try smoking one kind of terpy stinky awesome weed for a few days and then switch to another completely different kind and see if it has different effects for you...
Wasn’t it you that said Panama was really great focused energetic herb? Like Adderall I believe? I have to think that unique effect was due to terpenes as well as cannabinoids or you would have run across it’s like sooner in your smoking “career”...

I won’t contest that Terpenes effect on the total entourage may be more minimal than people have been touting lately. Ever mix up your weeds and you could swear to god your GT tasted like the Crumbled Lime or some such you thought it was?
I personally have a lot of experience with how much mood set and setting can influence brain chemistry in cascading chains of reactions... maybe we just get high on smells that make us think of potent herb because we’re a bunch of resin chained monkeys huffing homegrown flowers at comparatively huge expense to satisfy a habit we had to indulge to truly recognize the spiritual social or medical benefit of....

Or to put it more simply: we invent or exaggerate the hell out of a lot of shit in life to make it more fun. Getting high is definitely no exception. Entourage is probably real but involves mood and expectations as much as terpenes and cannabinoids.

 

['Boogieman']

I believe it's the cannaboid ratio, maybe terps work for other people but it doesn't seem to make a difference for me. It's still nice to have good tasting smoke.