HYDROPONIC OR ORGANIC...What's the difference?

[igrohydro]

Great thread.

Bioponics is becoming more popular,more and more bottles for complete cycles,expensive though.
I believe Soma coined the phrase,and utilises it.


When a plant has been grown correctly,ie not overdosed,flused,etc,shoulnt the smoke be the same?

Is it karma giving it that special taste?




peace.

 

[Matt Rize]

Organic Soil-less explained

Organic Soil-less explained

Great thread. MISSING is soil-less organics, which is technically how most indoor growers operate.

"What does Organic Soil-less Mean? And Why Do We Use Molasses? Part 1
Molasses is commonly used by medical Cannabis gardeners, indoors and outside. The use of molasses is highly controversial on the ganja forums. We all agree that molasses is great for brewing ACTs and AACTs (Active Aerated Compost Teas). Molasses use, beyond food source for microbes in teas, is still a debate.

Old school outdoor organic folks grow in the ground, or in an aged and conditioned True Soil. These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation. The old school growers claim "molasses has no affect at all on yield or flavor". They may be correct with regard to their style of growing. We'll get to that soon.

Most of us, the medical Cannabis cultivators, cultivate our medicine indoors for various reasons. We use something that is called an "organic soil-less" media in our pots (containers).
To understand how molasses is used indoors we must understand a few things.

1) What is a "soil-less" media?
2) Why is everyone using soil-less instead of soil?
3) And how does soil-less media affect beneficial soil life and the soil-food-web (organics)?
then...
4) What is molasses?
5) What are root exudates?
6) What does molasses do in a soil-less media?
7) Possible downside to using molasses...?
8) Do you use molasses during the flush?

1) What is an Organic Soil-less media:


Growing plants in containers without soil can be split into two categories.

A) True Hydroponics, aka liquid culture: A nutrient solution is recirculated with food (usually synthetic) and this feeds the roots to make our precious flowers.
B) True Soil-less, aka aggregate culture : A nutrient solution is supplied to plants by watering through the media, and either drained-to-waste, or reused.


Soil-less grow media has often been called hydroponics. But that is not exactly correct. Nutri-culture has been suggested to be a more accurate term for various forms of soil-less growing. And soil-less growing itself is separated into: Inorganic Media and Organic Media. Inorganic Media is also farther separated into Natural Media and Synthetic Media.


THE MEDIAS EXPLAINED:


True Hydroponics: circulating solutions, aeroponics, static solutions


Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Natural Media: sand, gravel, rockwool, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, expanded clay.

Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Synthetic Media: oasis, hydrogel, foam mats (PET) and (PUR)

Aggregate System -> Organic Media: Peat, Sawdust, Bark, Cocofiber (the non-soil dirts).

So I am growing in an Organic Media, mostly peat, coco, and bark. But the majority of indoor growers are using perlite, which would technically make that media a combination of soil-less organic media and soil-less inorganic natural media. BOOM."

 

[cyat]

P4P,
I agree.Ive done both and feel that it comes down to feeding plants food with out too much heavy metals ,like cadmium, arsenic, etc. , also synthetic chelates if possible.That said organics tend to have more heavy metal (i.e. guano) than clean food grade or pharma grade minerals.I think minerals or minerals and some organics produce better medicine than straight organic.

 

[dmt]

taste and smell are second to none in organics, especially organic hydro, d

 

[DHF]

You know.........I`ve got a GrowBro on the left coast that`s been perfecting his soil blend and organic amendments for yrs , and he just surpassed 3 lbs per 1KW running Giesel with the folks at the Clubs beggin him for all he can produce..........Harborside being the main source wantin his goods........

And I can see this in the highly competetive market in Cali , where top shelf shit shines through when there`s gozillions of product to pick from with a med scrip card.......but.......

There is no difference in nutrient uptake from organics or hydroponics as far as the plants are concerned from a food standpoint......only ph parameters that allow different nutrients to be used at different ph levels.....running hydro that is.......

My buddy`s a fukin mad scientist and the ONLY grower I`ve ever seen get well over 2 lbs per light with organics , much less 3........on a production/rotation basis with minimum veg constraints , that is........

I used GH 3 part for 15 yrs plus in lower concentrations with all but no additives , and instead of a flush in late flower , I allowed my R/O tanks on float valves to top off my rez`s dwindling ppm`s down to damn near nothing by harvey , instead of depriving em of essential micro`s and starvin em causin the plants to cannabalize themselves for the survival syndrome just for so-called increased flavor/smell/white-ash ?......

Never had a sparkly , overfed black ash joint that wouldn`t burn in my life that I grew........with GH 3 part and proper dry/curing......

Peace......DHF...........

 

[mad librettist]

HYDROPONIC OR ORGANIC...What's the difference?

It is like in sports; when the muscles and organs start to produce lactic acid then the pain starts and you should stop and take a rest.

we've known for years now that this is patently false. lactic acid is a fuel, not a waste product.

 

[mad librettist]

HYDROPONIC OR ORGANIC...What's the difference?

no difference between organic and chem? plants disagree.

most plants prefer nitrate or ammonium. annuals tend to prefer nitrate, and are more susceptible to health issues when given mostly ammonium.

so obviously a system in which the plant can signal it wants the ammoniacal N converted to nitrate is going to be very different from a system in which the decision is made for the plant.

I find plants receiving the right N are more resistant to stressors. this is true throughout land living branch of the plant kingdom, except riparian plants, which have a plant version of a liver and can handle anaerobic conditions.

re: flushing. practically, it's a good idea. but the theory behind it is absolute bunk. when a plant is fed water only, the roots don't start getting rid of nutes. in fact, the opposite happens. rather than discard nutes, the plant moves the ones it can to new growth. these are nutes that are mobile within the plant. the only nutes you can keep out of the buds are the immobile nutes.

mobile nutes include N. so when your leaves go yellow, it's because all that N is being relocated to new growth, AKA the bud sites.

 

[putoneout]

great stuff very resourceful thanks..

 

[pray4pistils]

Jeesh, where to begin (sigh) K, first of all a buddy of mine pointed me to this. At first I said "It's literally a year later. Why bother?" But, then I decided that the challenges are too much fun not to address. The clarifications should benefit noobs, too.

Hey, I know this is an old thread, but dude...

Aha, we actually CAN agree on something. Progress.

Before u go giving people advice saying other advice is wrong, make sure u got ur advice right.

I grow using potting soil,and Hydroponically I use Coco or Hydroton. Honestly mixing the 2 Doesn't make sense to me, BUT!!!!! With that being said............ Does that mean because I wouldn't do it it's not possible. According to u it CAN'T BE DONE! At least ur so so rude comment makes everyone to probably believe wat I believe.

Rude comments? What I did was critique the thread's premise and some of the technical points made. I offered supporting perspective to justify the objections. Asserting of truth is my aim and I do it confidently.

Secondly, most any non-toxic grow media can be used. Some are reasonable performers. Others are not. There are media that *far* exceed saturated potting soil with respects to oxygen and nutrient availability in hydroponics. Thus, my objection is on relative terms. -not whether or not it is *possible* at all but whether it's worthwhile.

So without further ado. I have to say, I have seen quite a FEW successful grows, with potting soil as the media, in different hydroponic systems. In Top Drip, and wat I thought would for sure be a disaster, but he pulled it off. ARE U READY?????? DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!!!!! A DWC with potting soil as the MEDIUM!

In DWC the water itself is the medium. Furthermore, there is no way for a root ball to be happy when submerged in thick mud. If only the bottom of that potting soil barely touches water bubbling beneath, then *that* makes sense. I've fed the top organically and the bottom with chem in that arrangement. Purists be damned. Just the same, only the bottom section was/would be DWC "hydro".

Here is a link to a page telling u how to use pooting soil as a beginner hydroponic.

You've GOT to be kidding. That's not hydro. That's just a soilless grow medium. It's what I use now in containers both indoors and outdoors. By technique, it's basically enhanced soil growing and not hydroponic in the slightest.

Plants grow in nursery pots and can be watered by hand, eliminating the need for pumps, timers, and water systems."

Yes? That's called watering flower pots. LOL! Is that supposed to be some new technique or something? Weeeeeee... You puttin' me on??? Fer rilz, y0?

NOW HOLD ON!!!!! Let me keep explaining some other things before u get irrational, and upset cause ur being corrected

I'm barely able to contain myself.

I want u to FULLY understand wat Hydroponics actually is.

We're talkin about good ol potting soil, which can be soilless.

I use a 100% Complete Organic OMRI Listed Potting Soil. The kicker is this..... THERE's NO fertilizer in it!!!! So I feed it every day, and there nutes in my water(not orgainc) Isnt that Hydroponic??????

Uh, no. That is absolutely NOT hydroponic. That's hand watered chem growing in soilless mix recognized to be organic. OMRI ratings are largely ridiculous to begin with and then you "ruin" it from there.

But regardless , we feed our plants Hydroponic Nutes with every watering(which at 1 point is everyday),and the occassional flush(using clearex), with great success.

Yes, the term "hydroponic nutes" is being used to describe synthetic or mined minteral fertilizers formulated for hydroponic use. You could pour the stuff out in a cornfield and feed the plants. That wouldn't make it "hydro" would it?

And also, u just kinda seemed to be talkin down to everyone.

No, only you right now. Actually, I'm not speaking down to you. I can disagree politely and respectfully. However, I will also call b.s. when I see it. This is one of those times.

SO when I read the sorta ignorant info in ur last post, I had to correct u.

lol

NOT CAUSE I THINK URE WRONG. BE+CAUSE WIKIPEDIA SAYS SO!

"Bam! Wikipedia says so! So there!" (lol)

I hope I don't offend or start a war in here... I love Organic ferts, and Hydro systems. Haven't crossed the 2 together yet, but that was my purpose here today, until I read a rude post. SO I apologize to everyone, if I seem to be the wrong 1. Peace to all. 3-11, 3-3-11!

I doubt anybody's getting too worked up about this, dude. Also, as I said before I've actually mixed the two. It can deliver optimal results when done optimally.

Happy Gardening,

 

[ozman]

Well Im still confused,I would like to try so called organic in a dwc.Ive done the dwc with gh 3 part and had great success.My sister says that she prefers organic,so ive been trying to figure out if "organic"is worth the trouble and if I can do it with dwc or do I need to find another way.I dont guess ive ever really smoked any truly organic smoke.Ive always enjoyed my own results,never had anybody complain unless it was because it was to much for them.Nobody has ever complained of the taste or of the way it burned.Ive never had my smoke taste like chemicals,and it has always burned well.
So Im still in the dark,altho I read that floranova would be better then pure chemical and Ive often thought about trying it as well.I do like the gh 3 part tho,never had any trouble with ph or over/under feeding,always use pure RO water tho.
So I guess the next change will be to try flora nova before I get to involved in the organic dispute.I am a fan of flushing the last 2 weeks,maybe that is the difference for me.
If anybody knows of a thread for DWC with organics Im open to suggestions and help.
But all in all a decent read.

 

[pray4pistils]

I've never done organic DWC but have done a hybrid chem + organic arrangement before. This put coco-based organic media up top and then hydroton clay balls down below. I flooded the bottom and hand watered from the top. A good amount of perlite in between kept the two zones fairly separate but with no hard barrier.

Results were decent, generally speaking. However, the challenge was pH control. With all that bio activity up top and running below, the reservoir (enriched with FloraNova, btw) was always fully innoculated. In and of itself, that was fine. However, the pH always rocketed upwards requiring heavy doses of acid bring it down. This threw off the NPK balance. I'm sure that it can be managed, but you'll have to learn the finer parts of exactly how.

As far as I'm concerned, true "organics" puts the plant in control of everything. I don't see that happening in DWC. Give it a whirl, though, and show us what you learn. My last comment is that if you want a real deal organic experience, you should go with a soilless mix. I personally recommend LC's Mix #1 + Recipe #1. It works stupendously well. I do cheat from time to time with CalMag+ foliar feeds, though. Purists will be outraged, but they're not my concern.

 

[SICE]

Ive been using organic nutrients on my grows this time around and it seems easier than using chem nutes.

hempy + blue planet Farmers prider + 100% perlite

No problems except it often seems like the nutrient solution adjusts the ph to around 7. Watering on mature plants has increased to every other day and this allows me to adjust the ph and to check ppm. I keep the ph at around 6.0 and the ppm at around 900 in mature flowering plants.

The quality of the buds seems to be top notch and the health of the plants are all positive. A watering schedule of- heavy feed, water, heavy feed, water.... Works great in keeping water conditions in order. Skipping nute and watering days has helped level off the ppm and keep it constant.

 

[Sunnyvale]

Nice thread!

 

[mtlakehydro]

what would you think of a hydroponic nutrient that was 100% organic that all of the minerals in the nutrient were processed already by beneficials completely . No need for benificials, no mess, no extra work, no smell, no clogged lines. 100 % recycled minerals from a 100% safe - 100% substanable 100% organic source. Any thoughts about this ?

 

[Joint Lock]

Being 2 kinds of reefer head ( MJ and aquarist)
Read this out and see my logic


No body tries to put anything in resi's for bacteria to breed on/in

I would say to even think about doing a hydroponic organic run .You would have to look at how reef tanks and saltwater tanks works. Fishtanks period really.

In a saltwater setup we use really pouris rock called (live rock) .This rock is called live rock due to we need it for (BIOLOGICAL BACTERIA). Most tanks call for 1-2 lbs per gallon. This rock would need to be made (Gravel, bio rings for fishtank, Few pot scrubbies like used in a wet dry filter system.

Anyways point im making is u would need a surface area (breeding bacteria) of a certain size to make everything work. The next thing would be a lot of dissolved oxygen. Followed by lots of flow or water movement. .

In my opinon nobody has even thought about using a pouris rock in say 10 gallon tubs. DWC Style . I think if someone was to use say gravel and a concrete @ 4/1 mixture of small softball sized man made pouris rock. Same way we make rock for SW aquariums.

After a good leech period of water changes on man made rocks . The ph would become stable PH of tap water in the man made rock (4-6 wks to come down to PH of 8) water soaks makes concrete stronger after setting out to dry 48 hrs

Without this pouris rock saltwater aquariums fail. We have sump filters . 1-2lbs of live rock is your biological bacteria breeding farm to keep everything good. (Not saying use live rock for saltwater aquarium. Just use its concepts of large stone that's super pouris)
A carbon source , air ,water flow

Just wondering if bacteria had something to breed on and live on followed by adequate dissolved oxygen followed by organic teas and decent water movement in say 20 gal rubbermade if it would work out. AS a reefer aquarist this has always been on my mind .
Using this method to improve stability of a hydroponic organics only DWC or EF table .

Venturi air input could kill 2 stones with one pump (See how a protein skimmer works or youtube venturie pump). Air and water movement . Thing would be how to keep roots out the intakes of a water pump or something. Tons of ideas run through my head. With all the installs I do . Saltwater custom tank builder glass or acrylic.


I could totally be off but doubt it . Being I know water better probably most of you do. Unless your in charge of 100-1000 gallon Large FW planted aquascaped tanks & SPS/LPS reef tanks every day. Being w/o this rock in SW aquariums u will fail in due time .Due to bad bacteria out grow good bacteria . Tank becomes unstable blah blah blah to waste not being broken down faster then it needs to be and bacteria are over taken by bad bacteria . Just like a organic garden just a little different

Like I said I could be wrong but this is gravel , sand and rocks purpose in large tanks . I would say a bag of 6 plastic pot scrubbies to each 5 gal DWC would work . But how to u make a DWC w/o foam coming from organic teas in DWC ? Hell I dunno lol

 

[purplestyle1]

bio sevia is a good bioponik fertilizer