Huge internodes - anything I didn't try already?

[MostlyMe]

I have a 60x60 cm (2x2 feet) cabin with a 250 watt Philips HPI-T-bulb I use in veg and early flower (HPS afterwards). This gets me very nice compact plants if I keep them at 20-25 cm from the canopy. However, when I initiate flowering I get awfully long internodes anyway, even more than a foot long on the stretchiest sativas. The plants settle down after a while, but that extra height and lack of bud sites is really a nuisance to say the least. Over several grows I've tried a couple of things:

- Less plants. Less crowding should limit stretch. Only minor effect.
- Equal or higher temps at night compared to during lights on by using a space heater at night. No effect, except unhappy plants.

I can't upgrade to 400 watt, because I would get cooling issues. My HPI-bulb (lots of blue) is just about eol, so I could try something else. Supplemental lighting is not straightforward in my situation, because the reflector is in the way.

Any ideas?

 

[Budley Doright]

scrog

 

[mowood3479]

Pgrs such as paclobutrazol aka bushload (and many other brands)

I would advise doing lots of research before using any pgrs... I choose not to but I have tried it n it stopped vertical growth on a dime.

 

[MostlyMe]

scrog

Forgot to mention that, but I train heavily. Fimming, bending, etc. anything for an even canopy. Problem is that usually I get a full screen and no light penetration below.

Pgrs such as paclobutrazol aka bushload (and many other brands)

I would advise doing lots of research before using any pgrs... I choose not to but I have tried it n it stopped vertical growth on a dime.

I've had a look at them in the past and I am not comfortable with those. Out of curiosity though, when you say 'stopped vertical growth' do you mean no more height gain whatsoever, or do they keep growing without elongating the nodes?

 

[Jhhnn]

I have a 60x60 cm (2x2 feet) cabin with a 250 watt Philips HPI-T-bulb I use in veg and early flower (HPS afterwards). This gets me very nice compact plants if I keep them at 20-25 cm from the canopy. However, when I initiate flowering I get awfully long internodes anyway, even more than a foot long on the stretchiest sativas. The plants settle down after a while, but that extra height and lack of bud sites is really a nuisance to say the least. Over several grows I've tried a couple of things:

- Less plants. Less crowding should limit stretch. Only minor effect.
- Equal or higher temps at night compared to during lights on by using a space heater at night. No effect, except unhappy plants.

I can't upgrade to 400 watt, because I would get cooling issues. My HPI-bulb (lots of blue) is just about eol, so I could try something else. Supplemental lighting is not straightforward in my situation, because the reflector is in the way.

Any ideas?

might try one of these through the whole cycle-

http://www.growitbest.com/products/901543

It's discontinued but still available. There's also a slightly different one for vertical use.

The 400w equivalent was revered by people who used them before they were discontinued.

GE also makes 250w CMH lamps-

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/aus/images/ge-hid-cmh-high-wattages-datasheet_tcm284-46193.pdf

 

[MostlyMe]

might try one of these through the whole cycle-

http://www.growitbest.com/products/901543

It's discontinued but still available. There's also a slightly different one for vertical use.

The 400w equivalent was revered by people who used them before they were discontinued.

GE also makes 250w CMH lamps-

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/aus/images/ge-hid-cmh-high-wattages-datasheet_tcm284-46193.pdf

Thanks, but will those really beat a growth spectrum bulb like my Philips? They are basically HPS with a little extra blue after all. On the other hand, they probably produce more PAR light. Will that make a difference, even if the blue component is comparatively small?

 

[Fuel]

In viewving your gallery and taking in count the sativa bloods i can view on, i can just invite you to test one cheap and basic 250 HPS bulb during the stretch period then compare.

I'm on haze and sativa side too, and the worst session i ever made was under a 1K MH. I never tested your bulb but when i read the spec, it seem you are more on my worst session condition than my best ones.

 

[Jhhnn]

Thanks, but will those really beat a growth spectrum bulb like my Philips? They are basically HPS with a little extra blue after all. On the other hand, they probably produce more PAR light. Will that make a difference, even if the blue component is comparatively small?

Not at all. They're of the metal halide family rather than HPS. The use of a ceramic emitter envelope allows for higher pressure operation than the usual quartz envelope. What it works out to is greater efficiency & broad spectrum white light. Comparison to HPS here-

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm

What that doesn't show is the energy spike out in the infrared that all HID lamps have to one degree or another. HPS is the worst, conventional MH less so & CMH even less. CMH puts more of that energy in the visible range where plants can use it. You can see it here in a comparison to the best CMH system, the Philips 210/315w family-

http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf

The lamp I linked earlier isn't quite that good at doing that but is def superior to HPS.

There are several threads about CMH in general & the 315 system in particular, these among them-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=72215

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=299165

I doubt you'll be disappointed with the above mentioned Philips lamp using it seed to harvest.

Stretch is very much strain dependent. My last grow under twin 315's shows that. It was Eldorado & Goatwreck haze, a limited edition from Rare Dankness. Even with intense broad spectrum lighting one pheno of GWH was an absolute stretch monster. That's probably why it was a limited edition. Pics in my albums.

 

[Tonygreen]

Id suggest different genetics for the set up bro mainly bro. What all have you run in there? What are you looking for mostly in your flowers? Maybe we can suggest some better strains to your liking for that environment.

 

[Chimera]

B9?

 

[Avinash.miles]

alfalfa sprouted seed tea? alfalfa tea?

 

[Tonygreen]

B9, simple classy concise!

 

[sdd420]

Well are you talking bingo or vitamin or what...fill us in please

 

[Chimera]

I remember B9 being mentioned by Ed Rosenthal in one of his books.

After actually searching a little about it it, I have to retract that statement, DO NOT USE B9 or B-Nine on cannabis.. B-Nine is the brand name of a chemical known as Daminozide.

I have no idea as to the lasting health effects of B9 after a long flowering period, but it is rated for ornamentals, and has probably never been studied for inhaled flowers.

 

[sdd420]

B9= folic acid

 

[Jhhnn]

B-nine is daminozide, a plant growth regulator withdrawn from use of food crops in 1989-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ne.php&usg=AFQjCNEAonj9RE8RMUs57Udws6w-KYGeMQ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daminozide

It's still approved for use on ornamentals.

God only knows what was in some of the pot I've smoked over the years but now that I can grow my own I want to avoid that kind of thing. Kelp tea is as far as I'll go in the direction of PGR's.

 

[chronosync]

Y'all heard?

400 watts is the minimum.
No exceptions.

 

[MostlyMe]

Not at all. They're of the metal halide family rather than HPS. The use of a ceramic emitter envelope allows for higher pressure operation than the usual quartz envelope. What it works out to is greater efficiency & broad spectrum white light. Comparison to HPS here-

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm

What that doesn't show is the energy spike out in the infrared that all HID lamps have to one degree or another. HPS is the worst, conventional MH less so & CMH even less. CMH puts more of that energy in the visible range where plants can use it. You can see it here in a comparison to the best CMH system, the Philips 210/315w family-

http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf

The lamp I linked earlier isn't quite that good at doing that but is def superior to HPS.

There are several threads about CMH in general & the 315 system in particular, these among them-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=72215

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=299165

I doubt you'll be disappointed with the above mentioned Philips lamp using it seed to harvest.

Stretch is very much strain dependent. My last grow under twin 315's shows that. It was Eldorado & Goatwreck haze, a limited edition from Rare Dankness. Even with intense broad spectrum lighting one pheno of GWH was an absolute stretch monster. That's probably why it was a limited edition. Pics in my albums.

Thanks for educating me It appears that that Philips lamp is not easily available in my country though and international shipping is too expensive. How about a Sunmaster Dual Spectrum or a Sylvania Grolux, I can source those easily. Would you mind checking those out for me?

Id suggest different genetics for the set up bro mainly bro. What all have you run in there? What are you looking for mostly in your flowers? Maybe we can suggest some better strains to your liking for that environment.

I like connoisseur strains and I won't change that for better yields I am not unhappy with the yields actually, it's enough for me. It's just that I hate the sight of those poor stretchy plants.

alfalfa sprouted seed tea? alfalfa tea?

I'll look into that. Supposedly alfalfa has a lot of (natural) hormones, right?

I remember B9 being mentioned by Ed Rosenthal in one of his books.

After actually searching a little about it it, I have to retract that statement, DO NOT USE B9 or B-Nine on cannabis.. B-Nine is the brand name of a chemical known as Daminozide.

I have no idea as to the lasting health effects of B9 after a long flowering period, but it is rated for ornamentals, and has probably never been studied for inhaled flowers.

Yeah, like I said I am not comfortable with synthetic hormones/pgr's.

The answer is easy dude; don't try to grow sativa's under a 250W light!

In fact don't try to grow anything under a 250W light!

Just not enough light energy to make plants grow.

The minimum is a 400W, at least you will be able to get a bit of cheap personal smoke that way.

Nonsense, I grew eleven tropical sativas on 2x2 feet under 250 watt (up to 18 weeks flowering). Sure, stretchy as hell, but excellent quality.

 

[chronosync]

Forgot to mention that, but I train heavily. Fimming, bending, etc. anything for an even canopy. Problem is that usually I get a full screen and no light penetration below.



I've had a look at them in the past and I am not comfortable with those. Out of curiosity though, when you say 'stopped vertical growth' do you mean no more height gain whatsoever, or do they keep growing without elongating the nodes?

Sounds like a decent canopy yr getting there. Nothing wrong with that. Theres nothing wrong with thining a tight canopy out a little either, its good for them i think.

About those chems or agents to stop stretch, you shouldnt need that shit. But i dont know what your problem could be especially since youve tried environment and light differential to stop it.

Yea, maybe you should try a new plant. Get something super indica, fat, but doesnt put you to sleep strain?

IDK but 250 watts HPS is plenty of light. 4sqf @ 50+w/sqf. Thats plenty of light.

Good luck

 

[Jhhnn]

Mostly me-

The sunmaster is an enhanced spectrum HPS lamp having more blue which might help.

You might try using your HPI-T lamp all the way through, see how it goes. More than a few growers use MH exclusively rather than HPS with good results. You might also try using the HPI-T through the initial stretch phase of flowering before switching to the HPS lamp during the bud fattening phase.

You may benefit from fewer plants & less shaping. In dense plantings the plants compete for the light & the way they do that is by stretching.