How To Wire A New Circuit To Your Panel

[Blowstrees]

Lmao, Growers are worse than doctors sometimes with their pride and arrogance.

The point of this thread was to help people who are going to wire a new circuit to have a visual guide as to what they are doing. I myself am a visual learner, so the idea was to share what helped me understand. Im glad some got something useful out of the post.

Hazey, Should I be giving out electrical advice? Maybe not.

MadPenguin- Thank you for all your valid contributions to the thread. Im stoked that now for the 4th time, it can be clarified to use what's called a cable clamp when running new wire to your panel. I have explained above as to why I did not install one on this run. The purpose of the cable clamp, is to hold the cable in place so it does not rub against the sharp corners of the panel or your junction box.

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/clamp_install.htm

The cables are not going anywhere...and even if they did...the 6-8 inches of insulation on the line INSIDE THE BOX will protect them. Although I will keep in mind your reference of just 2 cables per knock out.

As far as wire strippers go, they were already on my list of tools needed. Again the second time thats being mentioned and clarified. The only part of the cable that is being sliced by the razor blade is the split down the middle of the cable to expose the wires. The rest is being done with strippers to not damage the wire. You'd have to be some sort of an asshole to do that with a razor blade with wire strippers around. Spliting the wire in that nature came from my Home Depot book on Electricity.

As far as the order of your connections...the power to your whole house is off there guy. As far as I can see, I'd be safe as long as everything was connected properly. I did the hot first so im not limited in movement once my ground is connected.

Dudes like you annoy the hell out of me truthfully. The kind of guy who gets a rush out of
"playing spot the violations" and head hunting for little tidbits to chim in whether they have already been mentioned or not. Support issues with my staples? Lmao give me a break theyah guy! I never commented on anybody being a dick ( although Vinnythebat saw valid reason too) and you werent even the dude he was talking to!

Ill make sure to let anybody who comes in asking for electrical advice to check your thread out since you have already taken care of all the eletrical knowledge for us here at IC.

I bet this is you, huh??

Haha. But seriously , This is meant to help...if your just here to nit pick on whether or not I'm wearing gardening gloves for safety while Im doing it...or if you think my cable staples will have support issues...then please move on. If you actually find something that would put somebody in danger, by all means comment.

Thanks everybody else who enjoyed it.

 

[Blowstrees]

Actually, the main disconnect can be in any number of places, although it is most commonly located in or near the main panel. In many instances the meter is the only disconnect and needs to be removed.

But then, anyone who can't figure out how to turn off the power to the panel shouldn't be messing around in it, should they!



It was real nice of you to go to the trouble of putting this information together. I only glanced at it, so I don't know if the rest of your instructions are valid or not, but this tidbit here is just rank amateurish. It really doesn't matter if you left six inches or six feet of insulation in the panel, the only important part is the couple of mm where the wire passes thru the hole and is in contact with the sharp edges of the metal box (main panel). Over time that sharp edge can cut into the insulation on the wire. Anytime a wire passed into a box of any kind, the proper fitting or connector should be used. This is not something to scoff at or take lightly.

Wearing rubber gloves is not a bad idea, nor is standing on a rubber mat. I'd also suggest anyone doing this wrap the stems of their screwdrivers with electrical tape or tubing. Even when you turn off the main breaker on many panels, there are still live, unfused electrical parts in that panel and it isn't that hard to bump into them. Aside from the fact that you could kill yourself, a much more common accident is to touch something metal against a live connection then metal go boom and you've got molten metal flying everywhere, including into your face and, which are commonly nearby.

Anyhoo, you can make fun of basic safety precautions that people who work with electricity for a living take, and you can ignore basic industry standards for wiring installations, but that doesn't make it right! There's nothing macho about being unsafe; there's nothing cool about ridiculing someone who suggests a good safety measure. There's nothing wrong with doing things yourself, as long as you do them right. ...and you damn well better make sure they are done right before you go instructing other people how to do it.

PC

Like I said before....Ill make sure to tell everybody that Pharma and Penguin are here to answer all electrical questions. Ive never advocated being unsafe, or the need to be "macho" with my information.

No big deal here guys...if everybody really feels its unsafe I'll welcome any forum mod to remove the thread completely.

BTW....These are cute huh??? Would go great for my electrical work!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mumz-Insect-Shi...Item?rvr_id=&itemid=380105625965#ht_500wt_951

 

[Hazyfontazy]

did you find something wrong other than the knockout not having a grommet? or are you just trying to be a dick?

i'll be the dick not getting electrocuted

 

[madpenguin]

No one is trying to be a dick. Seriously. We are just trying to correct some very unsound advice.

As for the order of hooking and unhooking things, you always want the grounding conductor attached first so if you fuck up, there is a means for the breaker to trip. That's kinda common sense.

Everyone appreciates you taking the time to write up a tutorial and that was very nice of you. Just try to give safe advice otherwise people who are in the industry take great offense. As you've stated, electricity is not something to take lightly. It only takes under half an amp @120v to stop your heart.

Putting personal safety concerns aside, you could inadvertently start a fire. You rent in a duplex or some other such thing and your neighbors 4 year old daughter burns alive in her bed.

That is the main reason why I correct people when "hackish" advice is given. I really don't want to kill myself and I especially dont want to kill someone else.

 

[ItsAllOver]

Very nice of you. You could be saving a life/house!
I'd say be willing to tweak your tutorial if reasonable advice is given in the responses here, though! But why haven't you added the grommet info in the original post? You wouldn't have people coming in over and over with the same comment if you fixed it...
Peace

 

[Jnugg]

I will not be needing to do this once I can either rent a house(not apartment) or buy my own house but I have a stupid question here....

How do you run the wires to your outlets?Do you have to remove the wall/drywall....just curious,I know I could get an electrical book and study up but like I said this wouldn't be happening for atleast another 10-15 years (hopefully by that time every state in the U.S. allows for personal growth).

 

[Lord Doobie]

How do you run the wires to your outlets?Do you have to remove the wall/drywall....just curious

The outlet box is usually attached to a wall stud (2x4) and you fish the wire up or down to the box. However, these days, I think the standard US building code requires you to insert the wire intro electrical conduit (cheap pipe) so if there's a short in the wire, the pipe contains the fire it causes.

So you can do 2 things...inside the wall like above or just run electrical conduit on the outside of the wall to the outlet box. You see this done overseas a lot. The building was built long before electrical building codes were required.

An electrician will come along and verify/correct this I'm sure...All of this is not to be taken lightly...I wouldn't be surprised if ICMAG deleted the whole thread

 

[Blowstrees]

Hey right on I'm all about having the correct info from electricians. Truthfully maybe it might be best to just delete the thread so nobody burns their house down or sets the neighborhood kids on fire.

Can we maybe get one of you guys in the trade to do a post on it with pics?

 

[PharmaCan]

The outlet box is usually attached to a wall stud (2x4) and you fish the wire up or down to the box. However, these days, I think the standard US building code requires you to insert the wire intro electrical conduit (cheap pipe) so if there's a short in the wire, the pipe contains the fire it causes.

So you can do 2 things...inside the wall like above or just run electrical conduit on the outside of the wall to the outlet box. You see this done overseas a lot. The building was built long before electrical building codes were required.

An electrician will come along and verify/correct this I'm sure...All of this is not to be taken lightly...I wouldn't be surprised if ICMAG deleted the whole thread

The above is just nonsense and not even worth commenting on other than to say "Ignore it!"

Hey right on I'm all about having the correct info from electricians. Truthfully maybe it might be best to just delete the thread so nobody burns their house down or sets the neighborhood kids on fire.

Can we maybe get one of you guys in the trade to do a post on it with pics?

There are several well-qualified electricians that frequent this forum. They often put a lot of effort into explaining things to people. Hell, MadPenguin will write a friggin' dissertation if he's trying to get a point across. The point is, one of any number of well-qualified people could have written a DIY like this anytime, and there's a reason no one did.

You see, telling people that they should do wiring in their panel because it is so easy to do is kinda like telling the tenant on the 112th floor of the Sears Tower that they should wash their own windows outside to save money because, hell, any idiot can wash a window.Yeah, stripping the wires and putting them in holes is easy, but there's more to it than that.

PC

 

[Lord Doobie]

The above is just nonsense and not even worth commenting on other than to say "Ignore it!"

Well Mr. Goofy, I'm trying to remember what my dad told me 15 years ago about it. Now that I think about it, it seems conduit is mainly used in concrete with the metal even doubling as ground...

 

[madpenguin]

There is no code requiring you to use conduit (on the interior of a house), except where the conductors or cable is "subject to physical damage". Usually you'll see conduit on the inside walls because of either 3 reasons.

a.) The wall is either solid brick or concrete
b.) The electrician was really lazy and didn't want to fish behind the sheetrock.
c.) The electrician bid the job using conduit so as to undercut other bids. It's actually cheaper to spend the extra money on conduit sometimes than it is to fuck with fishing cable behind walls. That can take ALOT of time to fish cable.

Metal conduit can be used as the grounding means as long as it's "electrically continuous". Some conduit, such as FMC, can only be used as a grounding means if the conductors in said conduit are fused at 20A or less. And If you bury it in concrete, it has to be corrosion resistant. There are LOTS and LOTS of stipulations as to what you can and can't do. It's (the NEC) all based on safety and nothing more.

Again, that thread I linked to earlier has a tutorial (pictures and all) about how to "old-work" a branch circuit.

I rent a duplex that was built in the early 1900's. It has all knob & Tube wiring. I've completely rewired (old-worked) my entire side of the house as well as replacing the old fused panel. It's a huge pain in the ass and I've caused a lot of damage to the plaster here and there but it's nothing some spackle and paint wont fix. I didn't use a single piece of conduit (except to sleeve some cable feeding receptacles on the bare concrete wall in the basement).

I did most of it on my own dime and my landlord loves me for it. Again, technically on a multi-dwelling unit, you can not perform the work yourself unless you are a licensed and insured electrician. If you fuck up, your not just burning down your clients house, your burning down the neighbors as well....... If you own your own single family house, then the homeowner, in most jurisdictions, can pull their own permit and do the work themselves.

PC is right, I go on too much. Yes, you guys aren't going to have your grow room inspected and pull a permit for the work, I'm just sayin' is all...

 

[madpenguin]

Since there are many, many threads with people asking how to wire this and what wire to use for that, I thought I'd make a thread to have those with some knowledge share it with those that may not have as much. Hopefully we can get this sticky so it can help people in the future.

That's the very first paragraph from the extensive tutorial link that I provided earlier and will do so again.... Look at what I've bolded. If that was a sticky, PC, myself and many others wouldn't have to keep repeating the same old crap over and over and over and over and over and over again.....

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867

Read it! There are some arguments and head butting going on in that thread, but for the most part, it kinda stays on track.

 

[PharmaCan]

Well Mr. Goofy, I'm trying to remember what my dad told me 15 years ago about it. Now that I think about it, it seems conduit is mainly used in concrete with the metal even doubling as ground...

Well, hell, at least you're good natured about it.

Here's the thing, take a look at the photo in the first post in this thread:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=142824

...and that can just as easily happen to your face!

That right there is the reason I get so gnarly with people who post bad and/or dangerous info on electrical threads. It's just not a good idea to post random thoughts about electrical issues because someone might take them as a fact and act on them - with potentially dangerous consequences.

PC

 

[Blowstrees]

That right there is the reason I get so gnarly with people who post bad and/or dangerous info on electrical threads. It's just not a good idea to post random thoughts about electrical issues because someone might take them as a fact and act on them - with potentially dangerous consequences.

PC

Your point has been made and the thread has been deleted buddy. Thanks again for stopping by.

 

[PharmaCan]

Your point has been made and the thread has been deleted buddy. Thanks again for stopping by.

My last comment there was for Lord Doobie, not you. I didn't mean to sound like I was ragging on you over and over again.

PC

 

[madpenguin]

That was a great post by LowGrow. Blowstrees, no one is directing anything at you anymore. I think this thread has just evolved into a general discussion about electrical safety and electrical advice given on forums. It's all good and no one is picking on you.

There was one guy a few months back that made a post swearing up and down that running @ 240v would halve your electricity bill and to top it all off, he claimed he was an electrician. I don't presume to speak for PC, but when you see bad advice (to whatever degree), you have to correct it for the sake of others who may be reading it.

This thread shouldn't be deleted for any reason. Everything looked to be wired properly, there were just a few details that you didn't do, thus the reason why electricians are chiming in (for the sake of others reading).

If you want to see some fucked up electrical videos, go to youtube.

The average person thinks 120v is a joke because we all have been shocked at one time or another and yes, most times it wont kill you. Get in the wrong place at the wrong time and 120v will most certainly kill you. It's not necessarily the voltage you need to worry about, but the amps that said voltage is pushing down the wire.

 

[sparkjumper]

I'll have to remember that a problem definately will occur if you dont use a frickin romex connector lol.No wait a minute..In my 20 years or so of on the job experience I've seen multitudes of romex run into panels without a romex connector being used.Of course its best to use one.Its over dramatic to say a problem will definately occur if you dont use one.Shit there are times where you have to be a houdini to get the wire through the knockout hole as there are times when just knocking out the knockout is a true bitch.If you've done a lot of electrical you know its best to use all connectors,locknuts etc but you also know sometimes its just about impossible short of doing a lot of wall damage.I wont damage a wall just to use a romex connector and no electricians I know would either and I know many electricians.Use a romex connector if at all possible,but if its not dont think its some kind of major issue because thats just bunk.Way too much emphasis in this thread about that silly shit

 

[PharmaCan]

I'll have to remember that a problem definately will occur if you dont use a frickin romex connector lol.No wait a minute..In my 20 years or so of on the job experience I've seen multitudes of romex run into panels without a romex connector being used.Of course its best to use one.Its over dramatic to say a problem will definately occur if you dont use one.Shit there are times where you have to be a houdini to get the wire through the knockout hole as there are times when just knocking out the knockout is a true bitch.If you've done a lot of electrical you know its best to use all connectors,locknuts etc but you also know sometimes its just about impossible short of doing a lot of wall damage.I wont damage a wall just to use a romex connector and no electricians I know would either and I know many electricians.Use a romex connector if at all possible,but if its not dont think its some kind of major issue because thats just bunk.Way too much emphasis in this thread about that silly shit

Sparkjumper, I always thought you kinda knew what you were talking about, but this is just hack talk. Your job as an electrician is to do a safe installation, not to worry about if a wall has to be patched. If you can't do a job right, you shouldn't do it! Electrical codes exist for a reason and they are minimum safety standards. It's not up to you to pick and choose when to follow them - that ain't your job, man. (If you're doing a grow-op in a rental you sometimes have to bend the rules because you can't put everything inside the wall. But, aside from that...)

Houses vibrate. It's not like the wires you put through a hole with no connector are going to remain perpetually motionless. Put three pieces of romex through a 1/2' knockout - in a panel, where the edge is sharp - and at least part of that romex is going to be against a sharp, vibrating edge and there's a good chance it could get cut over time.

If you want to be a professional, you don't take shortcuts! And you don't bid a job based on taking shortcuts either. Maybe 99% of the time nothing will happen, but it's that 1% that'll come back and bite you or someone else in the ass.

BTW - Here's easy way to make holes and do a half-ass decent repair job. Buy a few hole saws. Where you need access inside a wall - like, say, under the panel or above a receptacle to get a fitting installed - make a small hole only about as big as you need to work with (2" - 3" - 4" hole, depending on your needs). Keep the circular piece of drywall that you cut out. When finished with your work, use some liquid nails type adhesive to glue the circular piece back in the hole. Before you drill the hole, make a small pencil mark that will stay part on the hole piece and part on the wall; that way you can align the patch exactly as it was. Depending on the size of your hole, use one or two small pieces of 1"x2" to screw into the hole piece and the wall to keep the patch flush. When the glue dries, remove the wood and screws, patch the screw holes with drywall mud and force as much drywall mud as you can into the crack around the hole piece. Don't get drywall mud anyplace except in your holes and cracks! If you get the mud smeared, use a damp cloth to wipe it off the other parts of the wall - all of it!!!When the mud dries, sand the fuzzy paper off that is sticking up around where the hole was cut. It should now be stiff enough to sand right off. A little touch up with some more mud around the circle/cut and you'll have a fairly decent patch job that is satisfactory until the house is painted again and then a proper job of matching the texture can be done. If you're working on a job where the wall is going to be painted, follow the same procedure except put a couple pieces of drywall tape over the circle cuts. One more coat of mud and you've got an area that's ready for texture and painting.

PC

 

[madpenguin]

Shit there are times where you have to be a houdini to get the wire through the knockout hole as there are times when just knocking out the knockout is a true bitch.

With a flush mount panel, yes... It is a bitch just to get the knockout loose but once you do, take a plastic NM connector and cut out the middle so your just left with a plastic grommet. Insert it from the inside of the panel. Better yet, fish your wire thru the empty knockout (don't damage the cable sheathing!!!!!!), then slip the gutted plastic NM connector over the romex and insert it into the hole from the inside of the panel.

Is the cable being "fastened securely in place"? Nope. Is it protected from abrasion? Yep. Did you have to do any drywall repair? Nope.

The thing is, this isn't a flush mount panel were talking about. There was no excuse at all to not use a NM connector in that instance, Thus the reason for the comments....

I wont damage a wall just to use a romex connector and no electricians I know would either and I know many electricians.Use a romex connector if at all possible,but if its not dont think its some kind of major issue because thats just bunk.Way too much emphasis in this thread about that silly shit

And that is my one and only beef with people in the trade. Time is money, time is money, time is money, time is money.

Your just being quick man. The mark of a good electrician is to be good and quick, not just quick.

I haven't switched to commercial/industrial like everyone else these past 2 1/2 years. I'm still struggling with residential and this fucked up housing market. I'm not trying to be an ass in the slightest and I really mean this...... It's electricians like you who keep me working.

Now stop..... Don't get mad. I thank you for the work. Really! I do. But it's still fucked up and I wish my fellow tradesmen would take pride in their work instead of just trying to make the almighty buck $$$$...

2 days ago I was switching out the receptacles and light switches in a bathroom from almond to white because the guy just had everything re-tiled to a black and white 50's look. I also installed a nuheat floor mat before the tilers got there. Anyway.....

When I went to change out the GFCI by the sink with a white one, Some stupid asshole decided to use the grounding conductor as the neutral because somewhere along the way when they fished the new homerun, the white neutral conductor was damaged. Instead of biting the bullet and fishing a new homerun, dude just jammed the white wire into the back of the box and used the bare conductor as the neutral.

Now thats fucked up. I had to go up into the attic and start pulling up plywood sheeting and traced the wire back to a point where the neutral was good. Snipped the cable, pulled it back to an area that was accessible, junctioned it, and ran a new line to the GFCI.

I charged the dude $150 to fix it, took me about an hour to do. If it wasn't for Home Inspectors and hack electricians, I'd be out of a job and that's the simple truth.

 

[PharmaCan]

They used to make a little plastic slip-on snap-in type of connector that came with a little plastic wedge. When everything was in place, the wedge was tapped into the hole next to the romex and that secured the cable. I don't know if they make them anymore or not, but they were handy for remodels.

PC