How to Neutrally do Open Pollination - predominance early Male?

[romanoweed]

Basic Pollination Guide here: https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/Breeding/971.htm

or here: https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/Breeding/839.htm

 

[romanoweed]

I wanna add, mixing pollen with flour was reported to bring Problems when storing pollen.. It can add moisture. Just in case.


I also wanna tell what im planning now:
Since poster Fuel gave me good reasons, why to not only rely on open pollination, i plan to do bouth: a open poll. and a selection Line. If i find the time... Will just select one Keeper in the selection Line. This should hold every Trait i wish, like say Potency, Taste, and Healthyness...
Special idea i have : I select one Plant i think is the Keeper, but as a Backup i cross all remaining unselected/deselected Plants openly together. This way i have new Seeds, wich last/survive as Long as the selected(estimated 10 Years), and i dont have to make the Selection again in Next Year before my last old Seeds die, in case of a Line Fuck-up..


I simultanousely make the open pollinating Line, on wich i mix the pollen from all Males together in same Amounts by Hand, so there cant be predominance. This way i have bouth Projects in every 10th Year simultanousely(or how Long your Seeds survive, before dieing). So im not more bound for longer Years into my homeplace, wich i prefere.


How i can do that, is another Question.. But i have a Plan, just in short: separate males for shure, but at same Place in Plastic-Greenhouses. The good Thing on it? If it really happens and the open pollinated line pollinates my selected line, then.. Let it bee. It is the same Strain, so nothing sooooo bad.


Eventually Details Later. I still have to look how to get Air into sealed Space, so my Plants dont die.
Peace

 

[Fuel]

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It basically anwsered all my Questions regarding open Pollination, it makes very Sense in its entirety, after a Week of constant overthinking. Just a glimpse, i conclude that open Pollination, wont work forever (atleast in small Numbers) and the Dynamic will one Day lead to degradation of the Crop, BUT probably rather not after 1, 2 Generations, and thats why its a good Exploring the Line-Tool, or a risky for many Generations, but in return effortless Broadband-Preservation-Trait Tool and shouldnt be let out. It can be backedup with the selected version of the Line , once it degraded remarkably.. And i see, i better transfer pollen by Hand from every male to every Female, to avoid enviromental, or other hidden Selections occuring while open Pollination.

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Overall : i think than you get the major point. Just take care about the concept of degradation, most of "narcotic" landrace's lines was improved this way before we bring them to the next level ("modern hybrids"). But we are speaking about massive scales again, and most commonly about an open pollination of a defined pool of specimens (quantitative breeding). Also about sedentary "strains" in general than don't leave the production during years. It mean a solid background.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The rate of control will make the major difference. When i "reboot" my indoor lines in sowing them directly in guerrilla, i have a an exhaustive background on what i will see outdoor. I will never let a referenced bad male or a referenced bad female reaching its sexual maturation.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I repeat, you have to fear more about deleterious specimens to avoid from the equation before their maturity. So in a way, imho it should be your first priority to map them before engaging an open pollination.[/FONT]

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1: I plan to separate; once Males showed Sex, all Males from Females. So i would have two separate outdoor Spots/or Indoor-rooms. Is it possible to have many different Males in one spot very close together, without the Risk, of collecting an other Males pollen when collecting a certain ones Pollen? I suggest i could wait after a strong Rainfall/shower them indoors, then put pollination Bags on, as soon its a little dried (only a little) , and wait a Week or two, until new pollen has formed and fallen into the Bags residuing on the individual Males.

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By experience, no matter the freaking load of money you put on the table, you have to respect a rule : considering the pollen of the males like ebola. You can have a NASA lab full of sealed rooms with an EPA filters each 30 centimeter, or a greenhouse than pass its used "air" in a pool ... you have always worries when you're planning multiples pollination at a time.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So yes, even if you put big figures on the table, all the males will be contaminated by each others. One grain is enough to change totally the paradigm, and only one male can cover a 4*4 tent from the roof to the ground just with the air-management turbulence. I let you imagine outdoor, we are speaking about kilometers.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Take my testimony as you wish, but when i flower multiples males at a time it's always clones from the same specimen. By experience, it's the only one universal guarantee.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now you have also to disinfect your mind from our community on males, most of the time i see on pics immature specimens used only with their first bags of bananas. And close to never, fully matured males. That's problematic. Hormonal maturity matter in the whole wheel of life of species, too early or too late ... and you're outside the safe genetic delta of the maturity.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So don't forget to consider the males as the brothers of their sisters, not as a different plant. When i play with skunks, i flower my males during twos months just like their sisters. I never care about the weak dragsters than die just after their immature release, i care about the males than i can work just like my females with the same nutes, PK and boosters. I want reliable stallions than have something to say during all the flowering stage, not a return of a prehistoric hemp. Even if it's against the trend actually lol
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It make a loop with your previous considerations about the "kill all early males". Early flowering is not a systemic malus than you will apply to your line, the speed doesn"t matter but the maturity. You can get an afghani male than produce bags within one week of 12/12, and continue during 50 days straight. That's absolutely not a bad male for me but more how i will select, in general, an afghani male. In another hand i will kill all specimens unable to complete a decent flowering stage, but they generally die by themselves before the middle of flowering of the (genetically) decent males. It's how someone i can't name have losted the initial Chronic btw ^^ And not with wannabee strategies, but with a solid experience in the mother of all seedbanks.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The same way, you can't select a female for trichomes quality at one month, you have to wait than the enzymatic dynamic produce the full spectrum of the chemotype. So, waiting for the sexual maturity of the specimen on this trait. In my case it's not rare when i keep a couple of specimen one year or twos, sometimes just to kill them finally. Due to the underground context, i've not always the opportunities to keep streamlined the things i find with the planning of the initial breeding plan.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You have to plan that too in your breeding plan : it never work like a charm lol and most of the time you got your best specimens in plain invasions of pests, disease, relocation, lifespan of bulbs ended lol ... because you're "no stop" since a while to reach this specific generation, and than the "genetic factory" is at the end of the cycle. Close to be ready to reboot with next projects, generally in another location and brand new lab washed with napalm ^^[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) Flower them all in this dedicated space, to known fast which specimens to kill. Use your personal method to differentiate the quality of the finalists, then launch a set of clones for the real round. If you are serious, you will collect all the necessary data to don't have to do it twice with this generation.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2) Flower them all, kill what need to be avoided (rants, mad phillotaxy when hormons are fully triggered, specimens dying before forming males buds, etc..) and count on "a matured pollen" window. Risky, minimal control, but do-able. It will permit to work only with decent males and to avoid a lot of pandora boxes. It's not a garantee of good genetic value, but at least you don't get bad genetic values from bad specimens. If you maintain this pressure, you will be able to drive the line trough an evolution (even if you don't drive it).
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hard to extrapolate with my habits, but in this case i think than i will cheat on a strong epigenetic phenomenom to rely on its stability and systemic action. This way, i will be able to "map" the line in real time without the need to work on the genetic. No PH regulation, No nutes ... whatever the unique pressure you choose, it should be enough critical and strong to dominate all specimens. The cons : you're specializing your line. But that's the price also when you enter in the class "everybody want to become a breeder, but no one want to be a breeder" : big compromises ^^[/FONT]

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Am i right, that to determine wich is a desired Female for keeping/Selection, one has to rely on the Look, Smell , Apperance backed up by Memory of how the say Potency-Plants looked ? so you would remember (and have Photos) that the Plant in front of you looks quiet like the Potency-Plants, so you would take this one for the Potency-Selection.. And
ONLY when Planted the Resulting Seeds from Selection you would know if you was right, or not.. And is Stem rubbing, or smoking whats already minimal Crystally a Tool? What do you use?

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Totally that for the first part. The game is to find vegetal patterns offering a given advantage, then making a map with it to drive faster and faster. Like a GPS.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you choose the "inbred way" (S1, BX, IBLs), the spectrum of offspring is narrowed more each generation, so the more you walk in this path with the line, the more fast and productive you are to get your "5%" (not a god law, just to make a loop with previous considerations).[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When i've started to deal with the Jack Herer, decades ago, each of my first selections lasted generally an entire year with dedicated space. The time to split rightly the blood in lines for long term, to get the main references ... now today, i only need twos weeks of veg to extract what i need in one of these lines. I don't even need to make fail safes clones with these lines, they are narrowed to the limits than can handle the sap. The main job being to extract for funky F1 and to maintain, to be able to smoke it pure until i die lol
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is the unique reward to choose this path : the exponential gain of time each generation.
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And ONLY when Planted the Resulting Seeds from Selection you would know if you was right, or not..

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That's a very polemic answer to formulate lol I don't have disrespect for seeds collectors than are feeding more their fridge than anything else, but that's how i make the difference between seed stock and a genpool. A genpool is living with short cycle of renewal, a seed stock still a seed stock until it's germinated and registered in a long term dynamic. So we are in a genpool context (straight turn over of seeds).
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After a while, you known your classics and can make hybrids on the paper with a minimal margin of errors. So it's pretty dependent on your own background. I known the white widow and the jack herer like my own childrens, the day i buy a "jack widow" ... i will not be lost in selection at all. Now with hybrids turning around an unique phenotype (hyped cuts) over a global quality of genotypes, it's even more easy. And sadly, barely systematic.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the case than you're starting with a totally unknown line, yes you have to make a couple of "void" rounds or you will be blind. At the moment you have the twos P1 living and producing more seeds than you can launch in a life, it's not a big deal. Produce 100 seeds, sow them all in 2 liters soda bottles in an insane density (this way you can set around 100/sqm) and put them directly under 12/12 to smoke them. Breeding hit your weed-yield all year round because selections, it's mostly how i refill the stash personnally ^^
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At the end of this round, and with only one square meter, you will be able to set decent "rules" from averages for this line. Not for good, but close. You have to don't be affraid about your averages if you care about them : the line will evolve if you have constancy on what you don't want.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] After that, the devil is in the details of each traits and we reach a very specialized knowledge than is over the main mechanisms of cannabis-breeding. Manipulating colors, tastes, smells, improving the chromatography reports is another game. In fact just another layer of consideration about the segregations occuring at a "lower level" (let's say not directly visible), the rules stay the same. It's just the amount of datas to manage than is growing up like crazy.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Give me an Indian landrace, and i will create a dozen of fail safe lines because i known strictly nothing on these strains. I will need a couple of years to map it rightly.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Give me an AK47, and i have a "nickname" for near all phenotypes this lines is providing before launching the seeds in germination.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On philosophy side, never grow something than you don't like as hell and than you can't smoke daily. It's a waste of time. The more the strain stay alive in your crop during a long time, the more you can expect improvement and mastering ... no matter if you known something on breeding or nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Knowledge in breeding is just the level of accuracy you can reach, and eventually the type of hybrids you can make on demand.[/FONT]
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And is Stem rubbing, or smoking whats already minimal Crystally a Tool? What do you use?

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Funny question ^^ I use my whole body. No joke.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nose, palate, textures ... it's the only way i can work on tiny details : "to feel the difference" first, the rationalize it in notations.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I eat leaves, buds in all stage of formations, crunch stems in my hand to "feel" the fiber quality, rub-smell the 4/5th node of seedlings, check root mass and type etc ... the whole life of all specimens. And when i'm outdoor with large scales it become worse. Mother nature have this skill to exhalt the expression of plants, making them true book to read. At the point than i'm unable to grow, no time for that.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For trichomes i totally separate the trichomes production from the trichomes quality. I don't care to have a fully covered bud if i have to roll a cone each half-hour, i rather prefer a zamal with near none trichomes but than is sending me on orbit within twos tokes, for the whole day ^^ I check the overall trichome's shape too, and their early spots of concentrations.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That, and the lassi bang of males or the hash i made from them pollen (foam hash morocco style) ... i think it's more a question of philosophy and personnal tastes. The whole will make a methodology itself than is compliant with the human your are, your sensibility with the plants in a way.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To be "concrete", my main factor of specimens killed is their potency. Their cones have to last "a plateau" of 3 hours or i just remove them from my genpool. This first priority is driving everything else, when i seek a taste by example it's on this basis. It's the initial compromise.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I don't say than it's an obligation to set its very first priority, but it help to don't lost the North after a while. Specially if you work a bit in the industry, most of the time you produce things you don't really care about to fill the fridge lol
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We all want the grail : high potency, tasty as fuck, filling an entire house with smell, long lasting, easy grow, big yield ....
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But each one of us have its own answer to this question : if you can transfer "goodness points" of each trait in a single one, which one you will push to the genetic maximum ?
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I wanna add, mixing pollen with flour was reported to bring Problems when storing pollen.. It can add moisture. Just in case.

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I never use any intermediate between the males flowers and the females flowers, but it work. I use it fresh, from fully flowered males and not dried to optimize the grain's cones adherence and with flowers in contact. The difference in offspring between an optimal/natural pollination and an artificial pollination with an half fucked material can be disturbing.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The main problematic with the industrial flour, being the chemical residuals imho. I don't known, if i have to play this way i will more use a neutralized compounds like a polymer sand or something like that. I rather prefer to have a couple of cheap small tents and a good planification.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I also wanna tell what im planning now:
Since poster Fuel gave me good reasons, why to not only rely on open pollination, i plan to do bouth: a open poll. and a selection Line. If i find the time... Will just select one Keeper in the selection Line. This should hold every Trait i wish, like say Potency, Taste, and Healthyness...
Special idea i have : I select one Plant i think is the Keeper, but as a Backup i cross all remaining unselected/deselected Plants openly together. This way i have new Seeds, wich last/survive as Long as the selected(estimated 10 Years), and i dont have to make the Selection again in Next Year before my last old Seeds die, in case of a Line Fuck-up..[/FONT][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This kind of methodology is a possible time-travel-machine, so you can't be wrong at long term with that if your breeding plan is clear.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Crossing the rejected specimens is a waste of time and space, they are freebies to send to wholesalers for free to lick their fat asses. Nothing else ^^[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You're supposed to cull the specimen at the moment you have rejected it, to replace it with a new fresh one until you have spent all seeds of the generation XYZ. Breeding is all about high rate turn over, it compensate your very short lifespan considering the manipulation of a strain. And tons of soil you use each month for nothing in return, there are the basic and physical proofs than a selection is occuring.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Very old seeds can germinate yes, but it have a price. All my lines have a timer on theyr bags : maximum 48 months before i renew them with the next generation. It avoid a kind of worry i'm actually encountering.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 2010, i've made for experimental reason a Ghanna x Zamal F1 hybrid between twos ibls. Just to study the twos lines in their answer, no breeding plan behind. Then i was forced to move the lab in urgency and i've lost during the process the original lines. So the GxZ still the only backup i have of these lines and i'm fighting with it to germinate only one actually lol[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In breeding you can cumulate worries, and sometimes in lines you never expected to lose. Keep your genpool alive and fresh.[/FONT]

I simultanousely make the open pollinating Line, on wich i mix the pollen from all Males together in same Amounts by Hand, so there cant be predominance. This way i have bouth Projects in every 10th Year simultanousely(or how Long your Seeds survive, before dieing). So im not more bound for longer Years into my homeplace, wich i prefere.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Predominance still exist in this case, but it's 100% depending on pollen quality and resistance of each specimen. Every single artificial leverage you hit on regular basis will have long term effects on life.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Like i don't known, pushing a tropical landrace in the arid texas. You known than the strain is not made to survive it, and than you will totally change the profile of the strain by letting big/thick grains pollen males taking the dominance of the future "texan tropical landrace". Put it back decades later in its initial land, and the process will make its magic again but from the "arid" line. So you will not recover the original state this way, because it's washed by the first operation to survive.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The same way, the males producing the more compatible pollen with the process (vial storing) will take the dominance. So the pollen grains with the more thick structure, cones density, and eventually with the lower rate of RH.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To deal with pollen in ease, you have to planify. The best scenario will be an isolated space where you can take the time to compare males, off course. You don't necessary need expensive greenhouses etc ... i remember my very first decent release. They was made in a big paperbox aside the weed space with a weak single T2 neon and duct tape ^^[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Today i still using the same concept, with small and short tents of 40 centimeters. It value nothing, twos domestic CFL of 30W are enough to make more pollen than you need. The whole investment will cost maybe 50€-60€ per tent. It's nothing against the gain of ease in the daily routine.[/FONT]

It is the same Strain, so nothing sooooo bad.

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By definition, acting an open pollination in small scale is the worst scenario of breeding possible. I will never change my mind on it. But i don't judge it at all, it's a choice like another one.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The danger is from the dominance of specimens than have others priorities than you, on which you don't have any control. The plants are not "programmed" to preserve the strain they are representing naturally, but to evolve (the principle of the DNA) in a given context.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One specimen can fuck up the whole line both in selection or in open pollination. The process will not decide the output, the process will decide if you will fuck it again the same way or never again ^^
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I repeat, i will never buy personally or trade this kind of genetic. It have zero value for me, like many stupid "elite outcross" around. I will knock more the door of the guy than can share the map of its genetics to gain decades, landrace or not.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yeah, basically buying/trading genetics with people than are knowing what they trade and how they made it. Look stupid, but in practice it's absolutely not the model of our industry today. It's vicious to consider, also conditioning i guess for the next gen growers landing in plain phase of saturation of the market.
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[romanoweed]

Before reading your last big Post to the End, a last Question that is on my Mind:
What do you think: You say atleast smaller scale open Pollinations can lean to a Hempy Side..
Now, can i select that Trait out after it happend..?
Or should i better perform a very slight Selection in advance (perhaps culling 5 to 10 percent) ..?
How high you see the Risk/Reward in this Pre-Selection Scenario?

Namely:
Would there be a high Risk of Damaging my open Pollination-Line in a very Slight Selection like this? And would the Advantage be high enough(namely the unhempyness of my Strain) ?

I hope i could do this in afterwords, and have a higher Reward then..

(again seemed to mention, some Landrace-Enthusiasts seem to even like such Traits)

Thanx !

 

[Fuel]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What do you think: You say atleast smaller scale open Pollinations can lean to a Hempy Side.. [/FONT]

Mostly because the chance to fail in this context are far more superior than the margin for errors than is offered.

You have to stop to think like a weed producer and to wash your brain from most grow logs you have seen, to best modulate your space for your goals.

Breeding is not photogenic. At all. You have to deal with insane density to maximize your accuracy, without forgetting to torture your specimens to debunk latent herms, vicious mutations (like variegations by example), or simply just specimens than are too expensive to grow (too weak) and to make productive, then worth the risks.

Let me show you the most uggly photos of selection i have, to give you an idea. I've nothing to sell there or a fame to maintain, i don't give a fuck lol





How it look like when you plan a large scale selection. As you see, this is not a rented greenhouse in malaga to produce weed to sell, obviously filled with clones, than i'm presenting as a breeding facility like a little bitch ^^



Just a bunch of plastic boxes of an half square meter than i put on a corner. This way you can reach very fast and in ease selections of at least 1000 specimens with a ghetto setup. And no one will believe it ^^ It's sad, but it's like that. For the common grower a breeding facility should look like a total waste of time, they don't think one minute about the timeline involved. Everything is "magic", but that's partially the charm of our universe after all ^^



Now the uggly process for mature specimens in soda bottles :






That's in average what i got per box of seedlings, with tons of seedlings already culled at this stage.


I show you that specifically to put your nose on the constraints and their blowback on the time necessary to reach a goal.


These pics come from an old selection i've drived on a Ghanna line (the one i've losted pure in relocation). It lasted around 18 months, no stop. A bit more than a half kilogram of seeds was launched during this period. It was a "perpetual selections" than is close to the spirit of your idea i think. It was a pure tropical sativa, so the seeds was launched directly in 12/12. To gain more density also. Do it with a true afghani and you're in the shit, too fast for that ^^


The process is pretty simple :



- Fill your plastic boxes by handfull of seeds.

- cull the weak, cut the bad, cull the weird, keep only the best recessives with insane ratio like something close to 1:50

- transplant the semi-finalists in small containers

- judge them, torture them and kill the ones than are below the average of your goal to replace them with news seedlings. Until you have germinated all seeds, plan a good stock before no matter the generation.



When the first mature specimens appear, mark them with fluo colors or something and isolate all valuable males in a "pollen corner" (small tents or whatever). Use the males until you find better in the new batches, repeat, repeat, repeat ... and get your grail if you took the time to write a decent breeding plan before ^^


Because i age a bit and than my interests are no longer in landraces, i will never do it again. Insane 7/7, 24/0 full time job, you quickly feel than you pass your time to transplant and clean a big mess all day long lol But that's something to live at least one time for sure, at least to understand truly the cycles of dominance and recessivity. You're not supposed to go so far, it's a bit overkill for your goals, but i think than the fiber of the idea can lead somewhere in your project.


It's a form of perpetual grow mixed with perpetual breeding. Don't mess around and keep isolated all lines in their respective bags well identified (date, female ID, batch number, initial line), it's very important for later, trust me on that.


The good side of this nightmare, is than you reverse the stash problematic of breeding : you have more specimens to test than you have time to roll ^^


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Now, can i select that Trait out after it happend..?

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To give you a clear opinion, i have to map this trait on this line to known. To known it's "position" in the priority of the genotype worked.



If it's a "collateral" traits, i will search for the initial traits producing this combo. Like dutchs with the colors of their tulips, i will not search the green, but the yellow and the blue.



If it's a solid trait linked with the inherent vital structure of the plant, "hardcoded" in a way, i will have no pity and i will launch directly a large scale batch to kill tons of specimens. With the goal to obtain the best reference of this trait i can find.



If the occurence of this traits is too close to the 25% rate, i will not consider methodologies that are not offering a maximum accuracy. I will maybe start with a BX to test the resilience of the trait and its manner to resist, but for sure i will drive that on long term IBL like i was walking on eggs, with a couple of fail safe ^^


In the absolute, you can't lose a trait. But the work and the cost to recover it can become insane to near "humanly" impossible. Not sure than you want to write an exhaustive pedigree book on your line to let your son and the sons of your sons continue the job ... you're the person supposed to enjoy it with expertise, first.



With a fucked up line possessing a recessive trait than i want to bring back on front of the priorities, i will maybe need three or four time the capacity of the "ghetto perpetual" (in term of number of specimens), to be sure to insure at least one compliant phenotype.



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Or should i better perform a very slight Selection in advance (perhaps culling 5 to 10 percent) ..?

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The sad reality is than you will discover that in front of the plants, they will tell you what to do by their ratios and averages. Don't fall in the trap of the prophecy game. It generally lead no where in practice i promise. Life is chaos.



This year i've decided to include and maintain the sensi star in my pool (she take the place of another one), i known well the sap and i have a fews hybrids under the belly with this baby.



But it was 20 years ago and mostly with F1 SS. So even if i known how to deal with the specimens shapes before germinating the seeds, i don't known what this batch will give in term of ratio and i got only 30 seeds of the pre-feminized time of Paradise. Useless to say than i will play ultra-safe, and also than i can't wait to see the ratios of these seeds ... to be able to write a breeding plan with the knowledge i have allready on this strain.


Don't mix the steps :



1) launching the seeds (yeah ^^)



2) Mapping the specimens and their sub-groups (not necessary mendelians)


3) from these datas, writing a breeding plan than is totally integrated in the genetic dynamic (ratios, dominance, risks etc). That's my little personnal opinion and advise : fight your plants like a virus. Not like a dictator. You will get more intense expression this way, always use the forces of the segregations at your advantage, don't search to fight it.


4) set the crop/space/whatever in compliance with the breeding plan : soda bottle, 100 gallons trees, 12/12 from seeds, perpetual selection, sequential selection, BX fail safe ....


5) Modify again the breeding plan with the technical datas (space, density of specimens, planned ratios, cost of the whole operation in term of stuff but also of work. If you set an insane perpetual selection in working hard 70 hours a week in your main job, you're sure to fail by lack of time for your analysis.


6) Whatever you choose to do, you're ready to fight at this point and to handle all errors and success you can eventually made.



I mean by that your capacity to reproduce again your discover, on demand. It's the only honest judge you will have during all the time, as breeder, as hobbyist, or as a stoner bored to smoke fast food weeds of the democratization lol


If you can reproduce it (with different specimens off course), with more or less variations on traits you don't select, you can consider than your conclusions are not BS and than you can write on the marble these valuables datas on the pedigree book of the line.


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How high you see the Risk/Reward in this Pre-Selection Scenario?

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This pre-selection should be clear like a crystal for you, simple in its goal and based on something specialized to the line worked.


By that i mean than the worst scenario will be :



- i want the best phenos, but i don't have really in mind a description of these phenos = launch one big "void" round before taking any decision, if you have enough seeds. If not, wait a bit to buy/trade more. And if it's unavailable ... the only thing to do is to assume than it don't exist a specific technic than will fix the initial context (not enough seeds).



I personnally prefer an accurate selection of the couples in this context, in an effort to find a different male for each female. It don't insure you to produce seeds with more potential, but when you will launch them you will mentally link the offspring with their respective parents in mind. So you start directly with a little compass, not from scratch.



In this scenario, it's a 0% rejected specimens.



- my goal is boost the trichome's production, the yield, reach 30% thc and have a cherry aftertaste : In practice it's preying to extract an "elite cut". It's not breeding at all, you want to build this stereotype as a new genotype. Not to find it.



Now, cumulating so much pressure at a time is not a good way. It's like being in a steam train and pushing all commands randomly to see what happend.



Growers mostly talk about the traits as farmers, and wannabe breeders should take care about that. In practice, it's like the wheels of a Swiss watch mechanism. Everything you touch will have cascading effects in the offspring.



I like to specialize my lines on a given trait, but you can also drive a sequential selection :



- round 1 : working the yield
- round 2 : dang, the yield have fucked the potency a bit, let's work the potency now

- round 3 : the balance is not bad but the taste is lost, let's BX one child on the reference cut
- round 4 : etc ...


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Would there be a high Risk of Damaging my open Pollination-Line in a very Slight Selection like this? And would the Advantage be high enough(namely the unhempyness of my Strain) ?

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In the case you're in the worst scenario (not enough seeds) :



- open poll : you don't choose your pool and you need twos rounds to learn something on the line. example : 1 month veg / 3 months flo : one entire season (~one year). Without any map of the ground.



- multiples couples (lets say a fake OP, but with 0% killed to stay on the initial spirit): you choose your pool, and you have allready a pretty accurate map of the line. Because you can identify each single parent of each seed batch, and make your first conclusions directly : 4 months only to be at the same state of control. And if you was tricky, you have only made couples than are representing their sub-groups, giving you a little additional dose of accuracy/mastering for later.



At this state, it's impossible to plan a result. But it's very possible to optimize the process with simple considerations. The main differences will be the time needed for the operation, the margin of errors and also your learning curve on the line.


I hope my average english is not too much a nightmare to read in such long posts, thanks for your tolerance ;o)

 

[mr underhill]

respectfully, I don't necessarily agree with keeping the weak and undesirable , even in preservation runs. My thinking is that mother nature is a ruthless entity and in nature only the strong survive. Mother nature does the selections on her own and when the weak and the sick and the undesirable present themselves, they usually are culled in one way or another.
So I disagree that culling the weak and undesirable is *breeding* , it is merely playing the role of mother nature and enabling the variety to remain genetically strong and able to adapt. Something cannabis has been very good at.

 

[romanoweed]

Conclusions..Again..

As i understand it in your latest post: You seem to imply that i just can now MIX all the different Plans you already presented to this Point. I can mix them in Timeline, meaning to perform multiple Selections after each other(you seem to call this perpertual), or mix them in Phases, meaning to, if i notice my say open Poll. Line to become Chaos put her into a Selection Phase, (if i by then iknow her enough) .
Just that everything is already said from your Side, and Combinations may be the Solution for this Problems(degrading open Poll.).. Further you seem to imply that there is just not such a thing like neutrality in the average human Grow-Spaces.. Aswell not in my asked minimal 5 to 10 Percent culling in the open Pollination... hmmm

Then you say fixing such a open Poll line would make much more Effort. hmmm , so i should probably be ready to whether: 1st: put my open Poll. Line trough a Selection, in a different "Phase" later, or 2nd: to just loose her to Chaos of unwanted Traits sooner or later, and therefore just put my open Poll. Project further down on my to do List, but not let her out too..

This leafes me with that Conclusion: i MIGHT run the open Poll. Project as the Risky Project(in therms of Effort on long run), where i will try to do the least possible Selection, namely no Selection if the Result look sens-full enough, and if chaos breaks out, i might put her into a Selection .. But i try to go the risky Way, as long as the Risk holds enough Hopes..
And on the other Hand, i will run a Selection-Line, with therefore more Garanty, not the Risk of open Poll. , predictively for ever, with a having to accept Loss, or call it Change of all Specimens thowards my selected Traits (call it win, or loss depending on if your initial bought Seeds where already perfect or not)

I think, i will then eventaully end up with: (regarding i dont wanna spent to much time) Try going forward in open Pollination, and going forward in Selection, BUT you seem to imply now that i better work 3 Years on the Selection Project in a row, to be anyway more knowledgable to reproduce the Selection-Line very nicely without much concentration, than just work the least times possible with it(all 10 years), and kind of forgetting the Facts (Mapping) everytime, and loosing my Motivation everytime..

Yes i can read your Text well enough, i think i am as good in English aswell. Peace , stay straight ahead as you are Fuel

 

[romanoweed]

So, for the Beginners (me), after we have some Outllook about how the Future of Preseving a Strain might look like, i give a Link on just the basic Breeding Science , or on how to make Decisions in Breeding: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26677

Mendel Laws... I still have to reread this Mendel stuff again. Learn how to Mapp things..

I like to hear others Opinions too, just talk further.

 

[Mr. J]

Wow! What a great thread, so much valuable information. Thank you Fuel for taking the time to share. I'm going to go back and read it again now.

 

[Fuel]

respectfully, I don't necessarily agree with keeping the weak and undesirable , even in preservation runs. My thinking is that mother nature is a ruthless entity and in nature only the strong survive. Mother nature does the selections on her own and when the weak and the sick and the undesirable present themselves, they usually are culled in one way or another.
So I disagree that culling the weak and undesirable is *breeding* , it is merely playing the role of mother nature and enabling the variety to remain genetically strong and able to adapt. Something cannabis has been very good at.

Not fair, you bring ideology and eventually religion (ital?) on the consideration. So you force me to mute on this.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But i try to go the risky Way, as long as the Risk holds enough Hopes..[/FONT]

That's a philosophy i will never blame, no matter if i'm sharing the POV on the methods or not. The "No pain no gain" is a real thing in breeding.
Your conclusions are structured for me, enough to deal with all the "under currents" we was debating. Operating an O.P. in being aware of these currents is not a little bonus but a big one.

I've personnally gave up on highlands thai during my "asian period", in favor of the dalat. The goal was not preservation at all, and i've finally replaced the dalat with the zamal in my genpool.

The three offered high herm rate (for my tolerance), the three was very long to breed (because three digits flowering time and specific regimes), the three was a hell to master indoor by their gigantism, the three offered an elitist high ... but only the zamal known how to talk well with my receptors and my inner goals in term of weed : the first priority i was talking about previously.

100% personnal there, and finally the zamal was far more hard to breed than the twos others. But i gave up quickly on the twos others because they was not enough tailored for me.

If the taste was my first priority, for sure i will rather choose the thai afterward ^^

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You seem to imply that i just can now MIX all the different Plans you already presented to this Point. I can mix them in Timeline, meaning to perform multiple Selections after each other(you seem to call this perpertual), or mix them in Phases, meaning to, if i notice my say open Poll. Line to become Chaos put her into a Selection Phase, (if i by then iknow her enough) .

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At the risk to appear arrogant, it's how you will last in this game. In being a cat able to climb everywhere no matter how ^^

It will make you compatible also with the thing behind the marketing : planification, the lab/space constantly in danger, choices tailored with the risk/reward delta etc ... also your lifespan.

I don't known the future of the seeds involved but you will need a good toolbox, specially if the sap is the one i think.

It's where it's important to split the methodology and the technics involved in this methodology.

A good method is a method tailored for you, and than you will refine years after years. To the point to become an old idiot like me than is not considering anything else because the momentum and the fail/win ratio. And it's a good thing seriously : it will give a common soul to your work. A kind of signature.

I known it's something than you want to avoid initially, but yeah better safe than sorry. It will happen anyway, you're the biggest epigenetic factor in the equation finally. O.P. or not. Better to deal with it than being dominated by it imho.

In another hand, good and bad technics don't exist. It like blaming a screwdriver than can't remove nails.

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Then you say fixing such a open Poll line would make much more Effort. hmmm , so i should probably be ready to whether: 1st: put my open Poll. Line trough a Selection, in a different "Phase" later, or 2nd: to just loose her to Chaos of unwanted Traits sooner or later, and therefore just put my open Poll. Project further down on my to do List, but not let her out too..

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Yes it's sincerely the hell to fix a generation of an OP. You can't really known directly what was wrong with the donors and hosts. So you have to investigate, and sometimes it take years.

A hint of selection, even light, will give you the texture to have a grip with your claws. A recurrent reference also.

On thaï, i will say than my worst error was to don't had the background i have today on industrial hemp (fiber strains). Big mistake. If today I have to choose an unique "light" main pressure on this sap, i'll choose the fiber as strange than it can appear.

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This leafes me with that Conclusion: i MIGHT run the open Poll. Project as the Risky Project(in therms of Effort on long run), where i will try to do the least possible Selection, namely no Selection if the Result look sens-full enough, and if chaos breaks out, i might put her into a Selection .. But i try to go the risky Way, as long as the Risk holds enough Hopes..
And on the other Hand, i will run a Selection-Line, with therefore more Garanty, not the Risk of open Poll. , predictively for ever, with a having to accept Loss, or call it Change of all Specimens thowards my selected Traits (call it win, or loss depending on if your initial bought Seeds where already

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sound good to me, rationnal.


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I think, i will then eventaully end up with: (regarding i dont wanna spent to much time) Try going forward in open Pollination, and going forward in Selection, BUT you seem to imply now that i better work 3 Years on the Selection Project in a row, to be anyway more knowledgable to reproduce the Selection-Line very nicely without much concentration, than just work the least times possible with it(all 10 years), and kind of forgetting the Facts (Mapping) everytime, and loosing my Motivation everytime..

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3 years is my personnal evaluation to obtain something competitive (i known than it's not your main concern) from a raw sap, but that's the idea yes. A non-stop selection will specialize you to a level of expertise permitting more depth in your choices, and eventually in possession of a valuable knowledge on this pedigree.

If you're a thaï specialist in 2029, i think than you have your place in the scene. After this crazy american cycle, i firmly think than the saturation will end in blood with a drastic epuration/fusion moves. And than the price of this type of expertise will become insane.

Well, it's allready the case actually in fact with the EU licenses. The wages offered are pretty sexy, and not to make cups winners but rustic weeds than don't smell and taste too much the hemp ^^ I present that like a breeze but if you play poker with EU license producers, you have more chance to finish six feet under than rich. The Jack Herer push me to disgress...

Thanks for your kind words romanoweed, a pleasure to discuss it.
For the mendel laws, it's not an obligation. But i will lie if i was saying than it was not an advantage.

ps : Try to contact RSC, they are totally against my vision and they will not ask you to prostitute your shares like a sect or to transform you in a sandwich-man lol Reliable counter-part imho in this discussion.

 

[Elmer Bud]

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Breeding is not like sharing a recipe of pudding on instagram, it's a highly relative hobby/job requiring tons of (relative also) details to don't fool people.
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But let's try to be more short without spreading a "magic spell of breeding" and letting people think than a methodology of selection can be universal for all genotypes.



The keys are simply adaptation and background, but it take tons of pages to explain due to the inherent versatility of the materials.






This fear of the fail is not rationnal. Even (true) geneticists produce errors in reading directly the code and the markers. Accept more your chances to win the race, and give it a try. You can fail at preserving a genotype, but you have to be really skilled to fail to improve the average quality of its phenotypes. In in all, you can't really fail with a solid and rationnal strategy.



I'm producing an average of a dozen of "void lines" per year, these lines will genetically lead no where but roasted in a salad. But they are responsible of the main lines than i'm maintaining and keeping in the pool. Without them, i will be unable to evolve my core lines. That's the price of my personal strategy, i prefer do produce my "bad lines" from something i known than buying them over and over without any sight on the parents.



The bad new is than you have to map again your plants each generation no matter the methodology, with the previous knowledge. The good new is than the accuracy is better each generation.




In general, it's rare when the chemotype is hit by the inbred degeneration. Most of the time that's the whole vegetal mass health than is limiting the potential of the plants, and it exist empiric methods to counter-act that. But it mean mapping and selection again.


You have equal chance to obliterate a specific expression with small scale open pollination and small scale selection. The difference being than with selection, you known why and you can rewind to adapt your strategy, then avoid the problematic combo for now and later developments.



The dominance game should be the first concern, and depression considered as a late concern only with the genpool management. Most of wannabe never reach and experience this state, to be short then harsh ^^ This plant is solid.





Without entering in the details : yes. But it's also right in the case you're lucky as fck.


After the O.P., you stay uneducated on what you have done.


After the selection, you exactly known what is producing the "good" and the "bad" combos. Then you can drastically optimize the use of your space and your time in the further selections. And it's exponential with each additional generation you're working. After years, you're no longer "select" specimens but you "extract" directly what you need from your core lines.


You have allready understanded that, but you should remember than all decisions should be made with the momentum. Or you're in an experimental phase where you can't set "goals".


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It's what i was thinking at the begin, when i've leaved the guerilla grow for indoor. Today i grow mainly to make seeds. Without it, i will stop to grow and buy my weed directly. And i will be sad today to no longer smoke "tailored" weeds for my tastes ...



This is a little additionnal layer to a "traditionnal illicit homegrow". You're not forced to open a seedbank and to fight against the titans of this market ... and i will dare to say than you have a great advantage on these goliaths : you have all the time you need, not only 6 months to create a new burger for the mass.




It's relative to your strategy, more. You can do an open poll in a 100% clay soil to generate a specific segregation (let's say high PH strain), or to sow in late to generate a new dynamic of selection in term of flowering window ... basically i will call that an acclimatization.


I personnally use open poll mainly to re-invigorate the defenses of pure indoor lines (making them more compatible with industrial needs), or for extreme experimentations (in the vein of the examples i've given).



But in the absolute, it's letting the chaos of the wild-life driving the line and set its own priorities. It's rare when it's compatible with our modern tastes of stoners. If the landrace have reached its peak of diversity in offering a pretty stable smoke ... why not favorizing the most valuable specimens ?


Your landrace is perfect but : taste and potency.


Why not to create a line dedicated to the taste, one dedicated to the potency and one main line than is just "wild" ... then juggle with the three in function of what you need generations after generations. One year you can work on the "taste" line, the other year on the "potency line" etc ...



Another example with the same project : the "main line" is worst to smoke each new generation but more and more vigorous, and the "potency line" is becoming weak but send you to orbit in one cone ... crossing your "potency line" with your "main line" is a maintenance for me. So partially a preservation.



This way you keep your initial sap as it, see how it evolve. And if you lost its specific taste and/or potency, you have a fail safe to inject without committing an outcross than will shuffle the deck of cards again. And eventually obliterate a panel of initial phenotypes by the heterosis "funnel".



Note : Don't imagine than focusing the selection on only one trait is easier than maintaining a line as a whole, the equation still the same and you have to map well your specimens to insure a result trough the fails, or trough an offspring than is below the standard of your previous reference.






Too bad, it's allready what you're doing in searching a methodology which is compatible with your environment.



IMHO, you overestimate greatly the context. You want to work with an unique line with moderate pressure, not to maintain a wide spectrum (genpool) able to generate catalogs of competitive hybrids.


The thing than you need to learn the more is to set a decent timeline of your project. By decent i mean "rationnal". 30 years for only three generations, it's a bit excessive ^^


Seriously, we can talk about genetic degradation with levels of inbreeding than are far away from the F3 ^^



F1->F4 : it's all about successive segregation, the time than the line find it's balance trough your selections. For me a line than is imploding at this state is just a burger to eat on the street, not to serve in a restaurant.


Landraces generally can handle twos digits IBLs without even showing a depression. It's more a concern with modern hybrids created with narrowed sources, or eventually intensive backcross releases.


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One generation is enough to fuck up a whole line, at different degrees. One single deleterious specimen is all it need, open poll or not. But it stay an human error, to assume and learn from. On another hand, one generation is nothing for the DNA. You have the possibility to correct this kind of error with a solid methodology : BX program on your reference, retro-selection and so on ... the tool box is big.



I'm speaking about stagnation of the person, not the plants. The plants will apply a more drastic selection than an human because it's a systemic selection. I make a loop on "drived open poll" with clay soil, late sow ...


"What's left" is the true core of the subject in fact. No matter what you do, there is always something in left by the type of the reproduction of this plant. Each specimen only share a partial information, and each couple is an equation of segregation. Even for a S1.


You have twos tanks of 100 liters to pour in a new tank of 100 liters. The thing is than you don't control the rate of the pumps, they balance themselves how many liters of A and B will be present in the new tank.



Imagine now than inside the tank, you have a fews of little balls. So 100 slots for 200 balls. Each slot being made with multiple balls and representing a genetic potential. Then the addition of these genetic potentials, create the expression of a single trait (let's say the "sphere" of it's expression without entering in the linked traits subject)



I'm not trying to discourage at all, but to present the paradox of not accepting to deal with the natural segregation and the will to preserve something.


You can take the equation in all sense possible, with only ten seeds you have to make the maximum possible of lines(different couples) and to keep living references for further comparisons.


The uneducated approach is the more painfull : you have to cross everything, judge the offspring, repeat ... in practice you have more chance to stop breeding this way and becoming one of these raging wannabe saying than breeding is just bullshit because too random. They just don't understand than quantitative breeding need industrial scales, then yeah this way they can produce one elite clone per year and per line. And it's not garanteed than the clone will have genetic value. Where are all these Cheese, Chem4, Underdawg etc... stabilized reg lines if it was so mechanic ? Basically that's the difference between a White Widow and an Underdawg, the genetical value than can't be judged in a cone.



The educated approach learn you to read the segregations trough living patterns (let's say sub-groups). It don't give you super powers, but the guarantee to map your genetic and to evolve as a person in the knowledge of the material you're using. It require to understand what is the genetic compounds of the traits you're dealing with, by empiricism mostly.



You can drive a line in juggling with a dozen of its traits and a cascading consideration about the genetic potential.


But you can also drive your line with a minimal approach, on feeling, with a lot less pressure on your goals.



At the moment you stay rationnal in considering the genetic ground and take disposition in case of errors, you will lead somewhere. No matter if your devote your time to it, or if it's just a passion.


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5% case


You known exactly the ratio, 95% of the pool will be erased from the equation. But let's say than you have choosed in this 5% the ambassadors of the line. The bosses of each phenotype's subgroups (yes, mendelian breeding).


The result is than you offer to yourself the possibility to work independently each "main trait" defining the strain. Then learn faster it's genetic mechanisms, isolated from others equations. You don't care with the line "potency" to lost days in the "cloning performance", so you can focus only on the potency and all it's collateral leverages. Maybe the maximum potency can be reached only with slow cloning specimens, maybe the "clear high" is only possible with K hungry specimens etc ...



While you're pushing the specialization to ridiculous levels, you also learn what is going on when you touch the button.


It make the situation more easy to CHOOSE what you are preserving or not, which compromise for which average.


The result is the control, the knowledge, and the predictable results after a fews rounds.


About the lose : i've not to complain about lines than have more than twos decades and than are staying "structured" on their initial reference : hybrid and landraces. It don't mean than i've not made a bunch of eronous generations to reach this state. Somes are very hard to manage, they took only an half dozen of generations since, and others have a filiation number than is no longer possible to share with modern stoners.



Each time than you will "lose time", it's at the benefit of your accuracy. The loss in term of specimens is always a choice.



Open poll case



People think than the whole pool will be used but it's not the case. Grains of pollen are not equals, male are not equal in term of pollen yield, and their maturation are not equals also. Same on the female side.



But, you're preserving the inner genetic dynamic to the point to let it drive the whole strain. The epigenetic become a main factor this way, obviously.


The thing is than you can do it at any step, in F2 or in F30 ... it's very fast and easy to wash totally the human footprint in cannabis. It stay a stupid annual than return "wild" pretty fast.



The problem being than not all specimens are reliables, and than not all specimens are defining the strain. Open poll' include them in the pool.



Like the swan sing, an ultra recessive pattern can produce, one time, a fews "terminator" specimens than will dominate the next twos generations before disapearing for good. Like an Eclipse lol And many intermediary scenarios like that.


The open poll is psychologically good, but technically bad if used without solid drives, rationnal reasons and a context than is enough large to mathematically create a neutralizing dynamic. And epigenetic put aside ...



Better in this vein to flower all your males in one time, mix their pollen in a vial then "paint" your females with it at your rythm. The output will be more streamlined, even if not so different, but far more easy to drive in your context for the same level of results. More easy for the planification also if you have a tiny veg space, or just none.



The loss is mostly your lifespan. What you're able to do with the 5% in a decade in this context, you will maybe never do it in an entire life with open poll. Reacting to a negative mutation included.


Now sincerely, between

- a line with no cares, full of herm and with unmastered averages

- a line maintained on its best phenotypes with stable sexual expression


I will choose the "breeded landrace" without any hesitation. She have the more chance to last because pleasant to grow, pleasant to smoke and pleasant to share, like the very minor portion of landraces blends we are using today and than we call "modern hybrids".



I repeat, you whole context don't permit to differentiate the level of difficulty of both strategies. The main difference will be what will drive your decisions as soon as the first generation : luck factor on the open poll, building a momentum for later on the 5%.

TLDR ... Waffle with dbl spacing .

 

[Fuel]

Yup, i need to remember to do a shift+enter to avoid the editor funk.

 

[romanoweed]

Yes Fuel, was interesting to think trough eveything
Aloahahah ha

 

[romanoweed]

I have to add one critical Thought: Im not shure if you partly try to convince me of your exitement for Stabilisation of Traits, OR if you just bring that Idea of strong Stabilisation AS a Solution for Preservation. Wich like you described should include many different Traits.


I have that Experience with real deal 70s LAndrace, and i think i can tetermine right, from what People tell, how reproductions of 70s Landraces differ from the previous initial Seedimport-Batch. As i heard it atleast 3 Times, the initial Seedbatch was mostly ever stronger. Probably more unstable, but again, had actually higher Potency. I did hear that only 3 Times and not too clear, but i carry on this Information, as somehow plausible.
It fits with my Experience, that 70s LAndraces are so complex in their Apperance (Effect) , that they basically have to been gone trough somehow better Breeding than small homegrowers, even with 200 300 Plants can perform.


So, for highest possible Preservation by Homegrowers, i wanna critically question , if you know this Aspect, or not. I dont know, probably you managed to really improove some of the most important Traits, like per Example Potency (i mean per Ex. Hallucinogeic Effect)..
Probably you did, but probably you rather lost Abit too much on the Way for my Taste. This Critism i also have when you tell, one shouldnt store Seeds more than 2 Years , like it seems cause Degradation. If i imbreed-selected my Strain, just for the purpose of getting ahold of the Line, then i rather suggest freezeing them, reason? Cause i smoked some remaining Tripweedline in 2000, so it should been longtermstorage. And yes, it was the legendary 70s Stuff based on the Effects i experienced im 100 Percent shure. So, longtermstorage seems possible with not to much downgrade.


I will however still remember many Information you gave, but atleast at this Moment the Depth of Inbreeding needed remains unshure for me.. Cause the told Anektotes , wich werent told to clearly , but they remain possible. Atleast one Generation i will have to inbreed anyway, so in any Case i will remember your Informations. Olle




I just dont believe everything , just like that, why should i.. whether in your perfect Knowledge, nor in the Anektotes i said . I can just try it out. If i even find the Time...( like one can see, i have very bad Circumstances, but still want the best possible, also in my Setup).

 

[romanoweed]

In short Words: in that Ibreeding-is-often-better-tham-open-Pollination-Idea (besides first Seedamountcreation) i trust you, but that selected-Plants-Are-ever-better-than-initial-Landraces i am not to shure whos right. I will try myselve, ok by

 

[romanoweed]

One last Question: Back to the every Plant x Every Plant/growout the Progeny Approach. The Problem is clear: Space Limitations. So, i would be able to do it with small numbers: look: if i have 10 Plants and cross every with every i get? right 100 Lines. Then i grow them out, and reduce them to 10/choose 10 keepers. Now again the same : cross every Plant with every Plant. !
So yes, it works but with small progenys..
What would be the Problems and Advantages?
I guess the Advantages would be something like : the anty Recessive Selection. Cause you see every single Progeny, without have influenced it, there was no blind decision wich resulted in hundert Plants, right.. But how hard does the Problems count, since you only select from 10 Plants, wich sounds very small..?

 

[romanoweed]

Im fairly shure the Anwser would be: the Price one pays for that Little extra of Perfect Decisions cause Outgrowing every cross, namely the big decimation of Seeds for each Selection, is much higher, so this is only something for big Companys with fabriksized Proportions

 

[romanoweed]

BUT now i got it:

if you cross everything with everything, or say atleast: more with more, as a beginner you could observe Abit what happens if you do this or that. you could START to read while growing out your expectet winners.
And ONCE you found out wich was the best paring (you spent a full run on all those combnations) you can take the whole Seedbatch of the best Pairing, and then start selecting zhe winners fro this Pairing from the hundrets of seeds you still have of this. doing the actuall secound Selection.


I think as a beginner you atully might preffere this secure Way! Cause you can observe what you did. You can still make aprediction wich would be the best Pairing, but see if you were right... One day while , as an experienced you wouldnt Need that doublecheck.


And again: you cant cross really everything with everything, if you do that with 100 x 100 plants you would end up with 10000 progenys to grow out. But if you would check the most favored 10 x 10 Plants, then well: you get 100 Plants to grow out in the next run. You could test These combinations in one single run.. Combined with your Notifications of PRedictions, you could probably get a slightly better Overview what works and what not..

 

[romanoweed]

But Actually..


i could also not cross everthing with everything (10 x 10 combinations), instead produce 10 parings separately . And then grow out 100 Palnts next Run (10 exemplares of each Strain).
Whatever way you do it, growing them out to observe if your Predictions were mostly right or rather random is an important Possibility to learn for Beginners.


I think with Pairings, you risk that one Part of the Couple might hide/mask the predicted Results.. Where with everything x everything, you have 10 differetn Partners, therefore no hiding possible, since all 10 Partners could have fitted better.. atlest they fit randomly well.. right? and some of 10 will fit overly well, right? So, everything x everything lets you observe better what you did. No risk of hiding/masking ..


What im asking me: how much more readable would the results become if i observe each Pairing separately (incase i made separate Pairings), therefore observe a higher Number of that particular one Pairing... namely 10 Plants, opposed to one Plant, but with 9 other combinations with the same Exemplare-Parent..?

 

[Veggia farmer]

Jesus mates, to much bla bla…

Genetics is NOT rocket science too get the absolutely best rocket FUEL to save lives..

So long I have the option, I ALWAYS to one open pollination when I buy a pack of seeds.. Cuz I live in a country were seed is illegal I have to options.
1. sprout ten If regular maybe 5 females or 8(?) who knows.. get Maybe one or two keepers.. Something might fail.. Everything is lost.. back to scratch… take a flight again for seeds? uhhh…. Shippment? nice, risk my whole op... OK, that was my rant of my situation..

2. Flower 10 seed.. HOPEFULLY 5 females and 5 males, if you wonder why, do some genetic reading.. Then I still can have maybe that one or two keepers, but also, all her genes in seed form too! I have always done my seedruns under 1 x 400w hps or two times due too circumstances two times under 2x 250w hps.. Every times I have done this, I have got more than 2000 seeds, maybe a lot more... did not count, judge me for be stoned.. when you have 2000 seeds you can easily use up 1000 or more if you like to get to "know" the strain, and still have a enough seed to hinder a depression/genetic bottleneck.. You may have some "drift" in the genetic/population since its one generation with just a few plants, but that does not mean it is waste or anything like that.

Open pollination plants is WAY more prone to inbreed depression compared to naturally inbreeding plants, like tomato. Tomato can inbreed 20 generation without necessary inbreeding depression.
Corn or maize, is one of the plants most prone to depression. The book seed to seed of Suzanne Ashworth says this: Inbreeding depression can usually be avoided by growing a population of 200 plants of each variety, which should maintain adequate genetic variability and diversity within the population. (further down) Maintaining a highly variable land race would, of course, require a much larger population.

But cannabis is not so prone to inbreed depression as corn…! And we very rarely breed with a highly variable land race too.. Because all of us(except some small gardens, or hash production strains etc.) like consistence is some way or another..

So, THE conclusion is that, Open pollinate.. get to know the line, and ENJOI BREEDING!

I back up my conclusion up one reading science on the subject, and chats with seriously professionals on the subject. An the chat/course was with the "biggest" ( a small women too be honest) breeder for the biggest ECO/organic seed company in EU. On this course I asked DIRECT questions on this subject with 10/20 seeds to still have a line, thumbs up by her, AND she actually started to laugh because some ot the seed line that get sold in EU is made out of just that one perfect plant. I talk about veggies… Same shit.. genes.. Just got to know the variables between species.