How to charge a mini split a/c

[prune]

Holy hijack, wills that is all just terrible advice who wants to go thru all that to charge a mini split? I get it's a little colder than really cold

Yes, terrible stupid advice. That kind of advice should be a ban-able offense.

 

[queequeg152]

Yes, terrible stupid advice. That kind of advice should be a ban-able offense.

hydrocarbon refrigerants are not terribly dangerous. yes they are MORE dangerous than say r410, but not terribly so. its way better for the ozone though... than any hcfc, and has a far smaller GWP than just about any HFC.

stricter environmental regs forced most of europ to adopt r600 for small appliances a few years ago. alot of public transportation will be switching to hydrocarbon refrigerants too.

we are only talking about single digit lbs here. also keep in mind the VAST majority of a refrigerant system will be outside...

so unless you throw a hatchet through an evaporator coil, its not like you will suddenly dump a shit load of hydrocarbon gas into your living space.

 

[queequeg152]

are hydrocarbon refrigerants even compatable with HFC ester oils? flushing oils is a huge bitch.
i dont understand what the whole point of these hydrocarbon refrigerant retrofits is... show me where these retrofits will yield BETTER cooling capacities without issues, i dont believe you.

just get your section 608 and buy real refrigerants.
hydrocarbon refrigerants are in the usa, are mostly only used to maintain and extend the life of older HCFC systems... whos refrigerant has become cost prohibitive.

 

[snake11]

Willstown. You give some of the worst advice ever. I hope you do not work for a professional hvac company. Your suggestions are dangerous and dumb.

 

[snake11]

Willstown, I have added plenty to this thread. The only thing you have added are dangerous suggestions. Sure Europe uses hc refrigerants, their equipment is rated for it. They also use co2 as a refrigerant so that should be safe to retrofit with too right??? Please for everyone's sake stop giving bad advice. AC units develop leaks all the time. What happens when your explosive mix leaks in a sealed grow room? Last time I checked no usa model mini split has potted controls. Please think through the things you are suggesting before you get someone injured.


http://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-10573_11472-310695--,00.html

 

[panick503]

Only a moron could make such a comment as yours. I'll leave it at that.

I am only read up to here now in the thread, but are u certified in HVAC? I certainly hope so... and jeez, even if u are, clearly the OP isn't, u probably shouldn't be advising him to pump out whatever refrigerant is currently in his unit and replace it with one that is possibly explosive. But what do I know, I'm not an hvac guy...

 

[snake11]

Stay classy willstown.

 

[bobblehead]

Intelligent people have no need for name calling or berating others. They share facts and let others come to their own decisions.

For the record, Michigan is beautiful.

I'm certified by LARA in the SOM to grow cannabis. Are you certified to grow cannabis willstown?

 

[queequeg152]

"just get your section 608 and buy real refrigerants."

a) R290 and R600a ARE real refrigerants.

b) You don't need paperwork to buy R410a, just a pile of extra cash you don't mind burning through.

"hydrocarbon refrigerants are in the usa, are mostly only used to maintain and extend the life of older HCFC systems... whos refrigerant has become cost prohibitive. "

What part of "Almost every refrigerator in Europe uses R600a" did you not understand earlier?

Hydrocarbon refrigerants are used around the world successfully, and have been for well over 100 years. The USA is the last place on earth that has finally allowed people to start using them, after decades of fearmongering and excuses. Pretty familiar story, right?

I can buy enough propane/isobutane to charge several systems for about $8. How much does your favorite refrigerant cost, and how well does it work compared to mine?

you absolutely DO need paperwork to legally work with r410a, you may or may not need to be licensed to buy it depending on states, but the fact remains that 99% of the supply houses will force you to show a license prior to buying. you can buy 410 from shady online dealers, but this may not always be the case.

a 608 card is trivial to get. i have one, it cost me like 140 bucks, and like... maby 20 hours of study max. its a good starting primer on hvac and good refrigerant handling practices. i encourage everyone here to get this lisence if he or she is handling refrigerants, or is anticipating the aforementioned, regularly, its worth your time i promise.

unless you are buying bulk propane... from a propane dealer, and butane from cans and shit, you absolutly CANNOT buy 10's of lbs of refrigerant for 8 bucks thats retarded.

REAL refrigerant grade isobutane and isopropane and the blends are made from very pure grades of gas... shitty propane from a camping cylinder will have shit loads of impurities... ethylene, propene maby mercaptan, and all sorts of shit you do not want in a system.

yes hydrocarbon refrigerants SHOULD be cheaper than even the cheapest HFC's, but this is not always the case. if you live away from major cities you may be forced to ship it into a regional supply house... the shipping on hydrocarbon gases is outrageous, and most of the time more expensive than the refrigerant gas itself. we are talking 140 bucks for a 15lb mini tank that contains like 50 bucks worth of refrigerant.

 

[queequeg152]

did that guy get banned for just being obstinate... or did he actually break some rule?

 

[queequeg152]

I love that you think $140 is a trivial amount of money. That's an entire week's pay for me, at this moment.

you can actually get a small systems refrigerant license for free if i recall correctly. the 140 bucks coves some books, cd's and all sorts of study materials you dont need. it allows you go take the "universal" certification test legally allowing you to work on all sorts of systems from fridges to 40 ton chiller skids.

You rats jump through so many hoops chasing that cheese through the maze that you mentally can't accept that there are easier and better ways.

easier AND better... good to know.
fact remains, you need some barrier to keep shitty hack technicians to a minimum. the section 608 is very easy to get... so this barrier is low already, however removing the barrier altogether is moronic.

What part of "you can buy enough refrigerant for $8 off the shelf at Academy Sports and Outdoors to recharge MULTIPLE air conditioning systems" are you having trouble understanding?

i dont recall the above being in the post i quoted.

A larger A/C system like a mini-split probably does use more refrigerant than the systems I've worked with, due to the extra tubing. If the system has a 1.3-1.5 pound charge (typical), then the $8 described above at your local sporting goods store buys you ONE charge. Big deal.

minisplits are actualy precharged with 410 to a standard length of like 50' maby less. so you would have to recover this charge first prior to recharging with a hydrocarbon.

i asked previously, and ill ask again... but are hydrocarbon refrigerants even compatible with ester oils? because flushing oil is a huge bitch.

its clear to me that you have no experience with larger ac systems... 1.3lbs is a microscopic charge of refrigerant. a 4 ton minisplit has something around 8lbs of 410 refrigerant last i checked. they usually have a standard spec for x ounces of refrigertant to add for each foot of piping you install beyond the 50' or what ever they specify for the system.

You can also sit on your ass at home and order ALL of this stuff right off Amazon.com, and have it delivered to your door, for far less than you will flush down the shitter paying some bureaucrat to give you permission to buy "officially approved" poison gas at 5x the price. Now THAT's what I'd call completely brain dead retarded.

poison gas? are you referring to HF decomposition? do you understand how rare that is and how difficult it is to produce it in significant quantites? unless you are a fire fighter or some shit, you simply do not need to worry about HF decomposition what so ever.

caveat though... the blow torch flame refrigerant detectors... you cannot use them with HFC's .

Really, the most retarded thing about this thread is people who insist on making comments that read like statements of fact, when the truth is you have no idea what you're talking about.

Another one of those statements that sounds good and correct in your own mind, but in reality has no actual bearing on anything in the real world, where I live in.

i honestly am starting to feel as though you are trolling me here... because its painfully obivious that you know very little about which you speak.

Practically all propane sold in the U.S. is HD-5 propane. Coleman camp stove fuel is HD-5 propane. That means it contains at least 95% propane. The other tiny amounts of hydrocarbon gases and trace amounts of additives such as ethyl mercaptan are completely inconsequential to the real life operation of an A/C system.

The only thing that might be of any concern whatsoever would be the moisture inside the propane....which is likewise also of such tiny inconsequential amount that it's easily absorbed by the A/C drier.

i suggest you read up on the ari 700 standards for impurities in refrigerant gases... many very smart engineers set these standards for a reason. 5% by volume impurities or non condensable gasses falls way way outside of this standard.

its probably true that hydrocarbon refrigerants do not need to adhere to these standards as strictly, however i think most folks would rather they do. moreover i think any sane person would rather buy refrigerant gas from a source with such documentation to verify its purity... not from a can at academy. considering the cost of equipment with respect to refrigerant gases its not a hard decision to make... saving 200 bucks on a refrigerant is moronic in the context of a 5000 dollar ac system install.

btw good luck getting a warranty exchange on a system charged with non refrigerant hydrocarbon...

Hydrocarbon refrigerants work fine with a little moisture in them, anyway! Unlike the PAG oil shit which forms poisonous and corrosive products when exposed to it. Yet another reason why hydrocarbon refrigerants are really the only sane choice for individuals who value their health and safety.

its not the refrigerants that are sensitive to moisture its the components... tx valves, cap tubes, etc. pag oil is not dangerous, stop being retarded.

Those isobutane camp fuels, such as the MSR and Jetboil brands, ARE more highly refined than the Coleman fuel. There are no contaminants of concern in them whatsoever.

perhaps, but why risk it? to save a hundred bucks on refrigerant?

Yes it is. Propane and isobutane are always easier and cheaper to get, almost anywhere in the USA.

What the hell are you talking about?

this is not true. hydrocarbon refrigerant gases are rarely stocked in supplyhouses. they are not used widely in the united stated. if you dont live in a larger city with shitloads of supplyhouses the chances of you finding it is slim.

when you cant find it locally you have to ship it. when you have to ship it, you have to pay outrageous amounts of hazmat fees to get it to your locality.

Do you think "major cities" are the source of propane?

Out in the country in Tennessee seems like there's a propane dealer on every block. And yes, there are plenty of sporting goods stores here, even in this simple and backwards place.

Sucks to be you I guess. Not all of us are so willing to bend overselves over the table and be ass-raped by DuPont.

its clear you know little about patent rights as well...

patents last like 7 years. very little of the refrigeratn on the market, in wide use right now is covered by patents. you can get 410 or what ever else form any company you like. its made all over the world.

i thik r1234 is still patented... but not in wide use yet.

 

[queequeg152]

Or better yet, just ventilate it to the atmosphere.

rofl.

Wrong....and you're an asshole for stating such as well, as if it's some proven fact, because you are misleading newbies into believing their refrigerant is safe when it's really NOT.

And if you solder on any pipe containing traces of HFC or CFC refrigerant, you're generating poison gas. As stated previously, many A/C repairmen have DIED from this. One little fire is all it takes, to melt an A/C hose and discharge refrigerant into the fire, in order for your room to be flooded with poison gas. Hope you're not in there trying to fight the fire at that time......

many huh? please show me where many have died as a result of regfrigerant decomposition products.
cfc's do not decompose into phosgene. its an old myth, one that they dont even bother to debunk anymore.

more hvac technitians die BY FAR due to simple asphyxiation than due to any chemical pneumonia issues. btw, if you had a section 608 this would not be news to you.

even if it was produced... phosgene decomposes itself above 200c.

refrigerants decompose into acids and diatomic chlorine. read any book. these acids ARE toxic... but not anywhere near as toxic as phosgene. old ass CFC's and HCFC's like r12 and r12 are especially prone to this decomposition.

you are not supposed to braze on any system with refrigerant gas left inside. you need to recover the refrigerant into the liquid line receiver, or into a recovery tank.

after that is done you break the system to atmosphere with nitrogen and braze with a small positive pressure of nitrogen to do your brazing.

i wont bother with the rest of your post, its degenerated into bitter ad hominem. im suprised you didnt resort to grammer and spelling corrections.

 

[queequeg152]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104562&d=1277584875

 

[queequeg152]

people like yourself make the internet interesting.

you are a priceless asset.