How long does it take for a dry amendment top dressing into soil to ACTUALLY start working?

[ice minus]

Hi all, just a fundamental, basic grow question because I honestly have applied things a bunch of times now and have no idea if / when they will start working, or IF they even start working

edit - it's 3 questions sorry

For example, if I start seeing pale-ing of any leaves in veg, or god forbid as keeps happening in flower, I race over to my Gaia Green All Purpose 4-4-4 or Power Bloom 2-8-4 and apply a generous amount - maybe even more generous than it calls for, and frantically water it in. As the following days go by the plant just seems to get worse and worse, which I am guessing, is because "by the time you see the problem, it's too late".. and furthermore, or more importantly, because the dry amendments take time to be usable?

1. But if it's too late, what is the plan of attack at this too-late stage?

2. How long even in a worst case scenario when the plant is unhappy going to take to start actually showing effect from something like the 4-4-4 top dressing?

3. In these nightmare scenarios (like in flower) when the leaves are paling way too soon, like a month in, should I not only top-dress the dry amendment but also hit it with liquid nutes for the first X amount of days until transferring back to plain water and hoping the dry amendments take over?

Hopefully these all make sense, I feel like they're important valid questions and I'd just like to hear from people who actually know

I think it's especially important because I keep being tempted to "add more, add more, add more" when nothing is improving after application and I'm sure this is an extremely common pitfall many of us noobs encounter

THANKS ICMAG!

 

[PadawanWarrior]

It depends on the amendment and how aive the soil is. Some amendments break down fast like guano which takes about 2 weeks. Others like bone meal can take months and some stuff can take years. For the Gaia I'd estimate around 2 weeks for a good amount of it to be broken down but it'll continue to break down and provide nutrients long after just slowly.

To help get it working faster mix it in with the top layer and add EWC on top. Keeping the top layer with the amendments moist is key. So mulch makes a huge difference with organics. Adding microbes or a tea will help too.

You almost need to add the nutrients before the plants show signs but if you act fast enough it'll be fine. You can use bottled nutrients like Neptune's Harvest until the top dress starts working.

I like to feed less but more often. It's harder to overdo that way. And get some mulch on it. I'm doing cover crops now but you can also use straw or rice hulls. Cannabis leaves and trimmings are good too.

Another trick is to pre cook some top dress mix. I like to take a mix of soil, EWC, and the nutrients and keep it moist. Then top dress with that when you need to. Since it's already somewhat broken down the nutrients are already fairly readily available. Good luck.

 

[ice minus]

It depends on the amendment and how aive the soil is. Some amendments break down fast like guano which takes about 2 weeks. Others like bone meal can take months and some stuff can take years. For the Gaia I'd estimate around 2 weeks for a good amount of it to be broken down but it'll continue to break down and provide nutrients long after just slowly.

To help get it working faster mix it in with the top layer and add EWC on top. Keeping the top layer with the amendments moist is key. So mulch makes a huge difference with organics. Adding microbes or a tea will help too.

You almost need to add the nutrients before the plants show signs but if you act fast enough it'll be fine. You can use bottled nutrients like Neptune's Harvest until the top dress starts working.

I like to feed less but more often. It's harder to overdo that way. And get some mulch on it. I'm doing cover crops now but you can also use straw or rice hulls. Cannabis leaves and trimmings are good too.

Another trick is to pre cook some top dress mix. I like to take a mix of soil, EWC, and the nutrients and keep it moist. Then top dress with that when you need to. Since it's already somewhat broken down the nutrients are already fairly readily available. Good luck.

Thank you kind sir, as always, for your knowledge and help!!

2 weeks - hot damn - that would most definitely explain it. By the time I start applying it then there's 2 weeks of it getting worse and worse before whatever I dress with finally does anything.. Wow. I guess I absolutely need to be applying it early, maybe I'll try after a straight up just week next time or something.. since that would be around 3 weeks of growing until it finally starts working? What a brain teaser!

So I mostly do use that pre-soaked EWC slurry as a topping sometimes but my huge problem to date is my pots simply run out of free space to do so. Like the roots get so insane that I can even spot them ABOVE the soil line at times, and I guess I need to ensure I leave adequate space below the rim of the pot next time. Truly a beginners mistake and learning lesson - and on the times where I can no longer add more media, I've had to unfortunately just apply it dry to the hardened top layer of soil. What a nightmare!

I've also just started experimenting with cover crops myself, I have a mother plant with a bunch of alfalfa sprouts in the soil bed now https://blackswallowsoil.com/product/alfalfa-seed-537 and also have a bag of this stuff but haven't even opened the bag yet https://blackswallowsoil.com/product/5-seed-cover-crop-blend-589 - might be even better. Once the sprouts start growing somewhat high I am cutting them and letting them dissolve back into the soil, hopefully this is correct lol

Rice Hulls are absolutely on my shopping list for next visit in the coming month - I hear they are good for mixing into the soil itself too for extra aeration in cheaper soils - which I just picked up a bunch of Sunshine Mix #4 on clearance for $3 a huge bag! Ideally I will be able to figure out how to amend this Sunshine #4 properly as it's literally like 1/6th the cost of the KIS mix

Absolutely love the idea of pre-cooking the moist soil/ewc/amendment mix, can't believe I didn't think of that, especially since I already have 2 giant totes doing this right now (one with KIS mix, one with Sunshine #4)

Huge thanks again for the insight

 

[chilliwilli]

You could try mixing the amendments with a cup of water and let it sit overnight. The goodies should be more ready avaliable than with just top dressing.

 

[Creeperpark]

Interesting thread friend. Organic amendments break down over time and release nutrients into the soil slowly. The rate at which they break down can vary, with some releasing nutrients during the same season and others taking longer. One can't boost the EC with slow-release amendments like a synthetic one. The microbe population has to convert the amendments into usable nutrients.

Some people bubble teas to speed up the breakdown in pure water with an air stone. Others allow the mixed soil to rest for a month or more to allow the amendments to break down into usable forms. Keep us posted on your garden if it's safe.

 

[Disso]

It definitely takes a bit of experience and careful planning to nail the slow release nutrients in time.
Starting with nicely balanced soil, it may help to kind of think about your soil like a bank, where as the plant uptakes nutrients from the soil, money is withdrawn from the account, and you can topdress to top the account back up. But depending on what amendments you are using, you need to research and plan ahead because it takes time for the money to transfer to the account. Make sense?

As far as the roots coming up into the top soil layer, that is normal for topdressing, these roots are referred to as 'feeder roots', and typically you will get them coming up higher into soil layer when you have mulch or just quite a humid environment. These feeder roots aid in breaking down the topdress, but also as you add to the container, you give the root ball more space to stretch. It does not necessarily indicate your pots are too small, as roots will stretch as much as their space allows, no matter the soil volume.

The bigger pot size you use for organic water only soil growing, the easier it makes the job as a grower. It makes the margin for error as far as nutrients and any potential topdressing much wider, because you have more money in the account to begin with, and so you can draw from it more before running into problems.
Big pots allow you to maintain balanced soil but have a big nutrient reservoir - you cannot simply load a small pot with tonnes of amendments. It also makes watering easier once you are used to watering in bigger pots.

Plant size is also very relevant here, if you grow a huge plant in a small pot, you will likely have many problems, we can't really do tiny pots with water only organics like maybe you can in coco.
Somewhat matching the container size to your plant size is where you will find success.
I grow relatively large plants (for a 4x4 tent) and don't like to use any less than 45 liter (12 gallon) pots, or it becomes a lot harder to nail the nutrition.

You can check my grow log linked in signature for more details/references where you can see I went with 30L pots and have been fighting an uphill battle (as I was a bit short on soil and smaller pots can have some practical benefits when pheno hunting, especially from regular seeds if you don't plan to keep males). Should have topdressed earlier and a bit less light intensity in hindsight. Harder to nail things in small pots and unfamiliar nutrient requirement/hunger levels when growing from seed.

 

[linde]

Why are u trying to use dry organic stuff? Just fert the plant with regular water soluble stuff. End of story.

 

[ice minus]

Much appreciated and a big thanks for all the replies! I don't grow very large plants as I still am trying to simply learn how to reliably keep a plant perfectly healthy for the entire cycle and still clearly have a long way to go!!

And the soil is incredibly expensive, ranging from $30 to $35 tax in depending how far I drive and buy it from, for a mere 7 gallons which usually seems like it runs on the small side overall - so just to get somewhere around a 15 gallon pot size I'd be at $60+ in just the media alone! And that media will likely still run out and need a ton of stuff along the way, so I didn't want to mess with those sizes until I know what I'm doing

Very unfortunate, I would've been happiest around the cost of a single bag of the media since that's already very expensive to screw up at $30 for 7 gallons

Why are u trying to use dry organic stuff? Just fert the plant with regular water soluble stuff. End of story.

I don't know I thought I was supposed to! I bought a big bag of Gaia Green 4-4-4 and 2-8-4 but they are dry and very annoying to work with (tons of messy stinky dust)

What do you recommend instead?

 

[iStruggle]

It depends on how finely granulated/powdered the amendment is as well as the bioavailability of it. Ive noticed when actively using recharge that my plats appear to be getting it 2-3 days sooner. Ive migrated from down to earth to roots organic because its finely powdered and comes with all kinds of microbes.

 

[iStruggle]

Why are u trying to use dry organic stuff? Just fert the plant with regular water soluble stuff. End of story.

Different strokes dude

One could also ask if you’re monitoring ph/ec why not just ditch soil altogether and grow bigger plants with coco

 

[Lester Beans]

Some organic liquid nutrients are great for quick fixes. There is nothing wrong with using liquid nutrients like Neptune's Harvest or Botanicare to green things up.

Also foliar feed Epsom salts will help keep things green. Especially growing OG/Chem/cookie lines they seem to have quite the Mg appetite.

Always adjust your pH properly. Very important.

 

[linde]

Different strokes dude

One could also ask if you’re monitoring ph/ec why not just ditch soil altogether and grow bigger plants with coco

That's a whole different subject you are talking about. The op asked how long dry organics would take to fix a deficiency problem. The only simple answer is use water soluble ferts for immediate results not some dry organic crap that takes days or weeks to work... not sure what you are talking about brother.

 

[Hiddenjems]

From what I’ve seen you have 1 chance to get it right when growing 100% organic, and that’s when you mix and “cook” the soil. You also should check for heavy metals.

People don’t believe me when I say the easiest way to learn growing is hydro on flood tables. Things happen faster, but you can fix issues with your feed.

 

[iStruggle]

That's a whole different subject you are talking about. The op asked how long dry organics would take to fix a deficiency problem. The only simple answer is use water soluble ferts for immediate results not some dry organic crap that takes days or weeks to work... not sure what you are talking about brother.

Guanos and castings are immediately available to the plant. I know exactly what im talking about….. Brother

 

[iStruggle]

Ive been mixing since my second grow…

Brother.

 

[linde]

Ive been mixing since my second grow…

Brother.

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Since your second grow huh? And you must be on your third grow now. Good luck flushing all that crap out of your soil when ripening those buds. U got those party buds. Big loose and taste like shit. Lol

 

[PadawanWarrior]

You guys are funny.

Guanos and castings are immediately available to the plant. I know exactly what im talking about….. Brother


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Guanos are fast acting but not immediately available. I love them for that reason exactly.

Since your second grow huh? And you must be on your third grow now. Good luck flushing all that crap out of your soil when ripening those buds. U got those party buds. Big loose and taste like shit. Lol

Flushing huh. And who's laughing now, lol. Here's some unflushed buds for ya.

 

[iStruggle]

Since your second grow huh? And you must be on your third grow now. Good luck flushing all that crap out of your soil when ripening those buds. U got those party buds. Big loose and taste like shit. Lol

 

[PadawanWarrior]

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Nice. Speaking of guano. That plant in the back wants some. I get that all the time with my organic soil. That's when I bust out the 0-7-0 or 0-13-0 guano. I actually just stocked up since I think Sunleaves went out of business. I grabbed it while I could.

 

[iStruggle]

View attachment 19020450

Nice. Speaking of guano. That plant in the back wants some. I get that all the time with my organic soil. That's when I bust out the 0-7-0 or 0-13-0 guano. I actually just stocked up since I think Sunleaves went out of business. I grabbed it while I could.

That was a fade. Some GDP genetics.
That was my last soil grow. My current grow is in coco.

And i disagree dude, guanos are immediate. Bat guano anyways. At the most it takes about a day and a half, not that far behind chemicals seabird is pretty fast too

But its not something im gonna stand on a hill and argue over. I never let my plants get that bad to where they need it immediately