How do solenoids work?

[f-e]

I don't know off you could run 2 off those pumps in line. Maybe you could. It seems like it's kind of making things complicated. I have no idea what that pump is. It doesn't seem to be meant to be used as a stand alone pump for a small water system like an RV.


I do pump service for a living. Mostly installing deep well pumps and booster pumps for pumping out of storage. I also do irrigation. I install everything properly and do everything to code. It's all for homes, landscaping and commercial gardens. A properly installed well pump has to run for 10 years. I don't make up my own way of doing things or rig stuff. I do it the way any other professional pump service would do it. I do my irrigation the way any other professional service would do it. It's not theory or my own creation. It's tried and true standard way of doing it. None of this stuff really needs to be reinvented.

Its probably easier to think of this as if you were doing a water system for a house.

That burcam i posted is not low pressure. It's a jet pump. It comes with the pressure switch set at 30/50 but it can be adjusted. It keeps pressure between 30 and 50psi. That's between 2 and 3.5 bar ( standard household water pressure). Jet pumps are pretty much the standard way of pumping out of a shallow wells or water storage at household pressure and flow. Its at that pressure if you are just cracking a faucet or you are running sprinklers at 15gpm.

If you need to pump out of a deep well or up a steep hill our any other reason that you need to overcome allot of head, it's standard to use a multi stage submersible pump.

Houses on wells or storage almost always use one of these 2 types of pumps. They can use different sized motors and different pumps for different situations. They can be gotten in packages but they always are used with a pressure tank and switch.

In a situation like an RV, boat or tiny home, that you want household pressure but your flow is always low, it's standard to use a diaphragm delivery pump with a built in pressure switch like a shurflow. Diaphragm pumps do well at producing good pressure at low flows. Positive displacement pumps are not linear the way you think. I bet that shurflo would be capable of pumping 1-3gpm at 45psi through a small diameter pipe. It just wouldn't do it at it's flow LIMIT of 3.5gpm.

That beast of a pump is an odd one, as it lists 25 foot maximum pumping height, which is nothing like a Bar. So I didn't read on. Now I see the conflicting information. You have them in your hands though, so 30-50 it is.

I just noticed something a little odd. Generally we don't have RV's here, we have caravans. If you search for caravan pumps, it's pages of pumps like I have posted. Yet search for RV pumps, and it's mostly diaphragm pumps. I didn't realise there was this difference either, so just described a typical centrifugal pumps delivery curve. Which is the only type of pump I think suitable. Most produce a Bar. The one I posted 1.5 Bar. Though you can make a multistage pump with them if you want. Adding the heads together, not the capacity. But as one can supply 5 spin 12s (60x2L PC) the need has never arose.


I have set the dead zone for pumps, that feed a pressure vessel, who's outlet has a prv to set line pressure. Without which the shock loading causes leaks. I'm not without knowledge myself. It's only a bedroom though. $150 will meet requirements silently. That's from the plug that goes in the wall, to the pipe that goes on his drippers. The OP seems to like your industrial rig though, so you win



If not using PC emitters, you probably need them all at the same height, on similar length drip lines, off a manifold that actually has no end. It's a loop. An equal pressure manifold.

 

[CrushnYuba]

So jet pumps like that are usually used inn shallow wells. It probably says it can be used in wells up to 25' deep. That's the suction head. That means it can suck water from 25' below it. Pumps are never efficient at sucking water but they are good at pushing it. That's why in deep wells we don't use pumps like that. Instead they drop a submersible pump in the bottom of the well and they push it out.

I thought caravans and RVs were pretty much the same thing. I haven't seen a centrifugal rv pump. Do you have to install them with a pressure tank and switch to get them to turn on automatically when a tap is open?

I definitely wouldn't be using that burcam for something like what the OP is doing. I think it's way overkill for his needs. I was describing a good replacement for that leader pump. I would just use a 50$ rv pump. And if the time came that i wanted to expand, i would just toss it and get a bigger pump. The 50$ shureflo can still do 3x what he is talking about and it doesn't need a pressure switch or tank to work automatically. U just plumb it in and go.

 

[Student Of Life]

What happens to backlogged pressure/flow? Let's say I screwed a 3' length of 1" PVC onto a submersible pump, a strong one (I'm still confused about submersible pumps having huge flow ratings but no pressure) glued a cap at the end of it, and poked a small hole in the side of the PVC to let a small stream of water jet out. The pump is trying to move more than through the pipe than the pipe is able to release. What happens? Does the pressure exert itself backwards through the pump itself? Or does the pressure just build and stay inside the PVC?

 

[CrushnYuba]

It's not that submersible pumps don't put out good pressure, it's just that particular submersible doesn't. Multi stage centrifugal submersible well pumps put out great pressure and can push against a ton of resistance. That pump isn't even a single stage centrifugal pump. It's just a single impeller.
Think of how fans work. You have your nice inline centrifugal fan for your exhaust. It puts out great pressure because it's centrifugal. When you look inside the fan it doesn't look like a regular fan. It pushes the air out. The air changes directions. It's really a type of blower. That's how nice centrifugal pumps are. Then you have a cheap desk fan. It just has a fan blade that looks like a propeller. This is how a cheap sump pump type pump is.

If you did that with a piece of capped pvc the pressure would build up in the pump and the pvc. If the whole was tiny, you are dead heading the pump all the time it would be bad for the pump. If the hole wasn't very tiny and it was a good pump, it wouldn't matter much. A certain amount of water passing through is required to cool the pump and motor.

If you were to put that piece of pvc on the end of a shurflo diaphragm pump, it would just stop the pump from pumping momentarily. Think of a diaphragm pump as kind of like a bicycle pump. It has to pump up and down. When the pressure builds to the set point on the switch, it just stops the pump momentarily until pressure drops.

 

[Student Of Life]

The VFD pumps stood out to me when mentioned earlier. You have any experience with the DAB pumps Crushn? The "e.sybox mini" (that name annoys me) maintains constant pressure between 15-75 PSI anywhere from 1-22 GPM. The price tag doesn't scare me, just wondering if you've experience with these types of pumps. I've seen them around in a few bigger grows, but never realized what they were until this conversation enlightened me to what each type of pump does. I really like the simplicity.

I've also got a question regarding the wiring of the valves. Most irrigation/sprinkler companies sell pre-built manifolds for the valves, which you can build yourself out of PVC for much cheaper. The pre-builts scrunch all of the valves together, though, which makes the wiring easy. They just wire all of the valves to a single "multi-channel" wire (a wire with multiple wires of various colors inside of it). You cannot do this, however, when all of the valves are as far apart as I'm designing. Was thinking to just wire it up like this;



So all of the commons get spun together before being wired into the controller. However, the trolmaster seems to have 2 screws for each valve at the controller, rather than 1 screw per valve + a common screw. Perhaps this is because they assume users will have valves individually wired? Instruction manual looks like this;

 

[f-e]

So jet pumps like that are usually used inn shallow wells. It probably says it can be used in wells up to 25' deep. That's the suction head. That means it can suck water from 25' below it. Pumps are never efficient at sucking water but they are good at pushing it. That's why in deep wells we don't use pumps like that. Instead they drop a submersible pump in the bottom of the well and they push it out.

I thought caravans and RVs were pretty much the same thing. I haven't seen a centrifugal rv pump. Do you have to install them with a pressure tank and switch to get them to turn on automatically when a tap is open?

I definitely wouldn't be using that burcam for something like what the OP is doing. I think it's way overkill for his needs. I was describing a good replacement for that leader pump. I would just use a 50$ rv pump. And if the time came that i wanted to expand, i would just toss it and get a bigger pump. The 50$ shureflo can still do 3x what he is talking about and it doesn't need a pressure switch or tank to work automatically. U just plumb it in and go.

You don't use the word 'lift' when talking about pump suction? That is the naming convention here, and I had presumed that had international recognition. Lift and Head.

I'm not really sure how the pump works in a caravan. They do sell flow switches, but I think you still give it a couple of foot pumps to get it going. Then if your power fails, you still have the foot pump. A caravan is a trailer, while a caravette/camper van is more like an RV. There might actually be taps with built in microswitches, but you still have the foot pump as backup. You have seen a foot pump right? A 3" round plate on the ground, that your foot twists like a bayonet and allows to to pop up a few inches. That's your foot pump. A little column that you pump away at, before giving it a twist back to lock it down in the floor again.

I think putting individual pumps on timers is very easy, while the blue box (called what?) has a data port, and not a screen or override button in sight. It seems rather complex and expensive, to make all your tables rely on a single pump. One part... every table. That's going to be an expensive failure.

The fact this conversation has gone on so long, tells me this needs keeping as simple as possible. Imagine sending in a friend to do the watering if something went wrong.


Will this blue box of tricks call for a common pump?
The Drummond 1/3 HP Submersible Utility Pump 2000 is 'just' under a Bar and won't drop at the flow rates we are talking about. $90 at Harbour Freight.


Edit: I just looked up the blue box. Only to find it's an interface for a control unit that really has no place in a house with a few 4x8 tables. Or really in the hands of someone that's asking questions at this level. The e.sybox mini? I'm out..

 

[Student Of Life]

I'm out..

Thanks for your help, but you've been condescending and giving off know-it-all vibes the whole thread. It's hard and unpleasant to communicate with or learn from people like you. The device is an Aqua-X made by trolmaster, and is very common these days. It's an overpriced irrigation controller, priced as such because it has a few extra features and wifi capabilities. Went with it because I know a few larger scale indoor growers in my state, and talk with them from time to time when they're not too busy with their own dealings. They all use them and recommend them, and I'm familiar with how they work. That's all there is to it.

Too often around these forums you get people like yourself who gate-keep what people choose to find interesting, tinker with, buy, or experiment with. 'Keeping it simple' is relative to how one's mind works. It's more simple for me to have a VFD pump modulate between numerous zones via an easy to read irrigation controller than it is to mess with whatever it was you suggested. No offense, and I'm glad you have something that works. But why be a dick to people who choose to do other things? Emotional and possessive over people accepting your advice or thinking as you do in general. It's weird man.

Wiring numerous/all of the solenoids/zones in one's sprinkler/irrigation system to a single pump is common practice, assuming you don't mess up your pressure/flow ratings by having too many or too large of zones drawing on the pump at once (hence me taking the time to pick at the brain of someone more knowledgable about this, Crushn's been a real sport taking time out of his day to help a beginner like myself). The system will have a couple ball valves near the pump that T off to a gardening hose outlet for hand-watering for any reason. Seems good to me. Thanks for your help man.

 

[CrushnYuba]

have installed (and replaced) a bunch of vfd pumps and i have had a few of them. The dabs seem kind of gimicky and geared towards growers.
The only vfd pumps i'm still running myself today are well pumps.* I have a Grundfos and a pentair. I use the grundfos because it can run off DC power (solar).* The pentair i use is pretty sick.* I use it in a 1000ft deep well.* I pump all the way up that well and then through 900ft of pipe up the steepest hill you have ever seen to holding tanks in my garden!!! That's 1900ft off pipe total and probably about 1450ft vertically!

But to pump out of the tanks in both of these situations, i just use a regular jet pump with tank package. The vfd pumps just pump up to holding tanks.

If someone specifically wanted me to install a VFD booster pump for them, i would use a pentair or walrus.* I would try to convince them to get a CSV setup instead.* It's just a less complicated system.* I would be less worried about failure. And if something did fail, it would be an easy cheap fix.* It does the same thing as a VFD, but it does it mechanically instead of electrically.* You get a constant pressure through a wide range of flows. If a VFD pump fails, you need to replace the whole thing.* If a CSV setup fails, it's a quick cheap fix.* I just go to the plumbing store and get a cheap replacement part.* It cost a few bucks and gets fixed that day.* The pump, motor, tank, pressure switch, CSV valve all can be replaced cheap.* Allot better then tossing the whole thing when it doesn't work.
Not only can you keep it allot longer then a vfd pump, but the setup will only cost about 400$

 

[f-e]

Thanks for your help, but you've been condescending and giving off know-it-all vibes the whole thread. It's hard and unpleasant to communicate with or learn from people like you. The device is an Aqua-X made by trolmaster, and is very common these days. It's an overpriced irrigation controller, priced as such because it has a few extra features and wifi capabilities. Went with it because I know a few larger scale indoor growers in my state, and talk with them from time to time when they're not too busy with their own dealings. They all use them and recommend them, and I'm familiar with how they work. That's all there is to it.

Too often around these forums you get people like yourself who gate-keep what people choose to find interesting, tinker with, buy, or experiment with. 'Keeping it simple' is relative to how one's mind works. It's more simple for me to have a VFD pump modulate between numerous zones via an easy to read irrigation controller than it is to mess with whatever it was you suggested. No offense, and I'm glad you have something that works. But why be a dick to people who choose to do other things? Emotional and possessive over people accepting your advice or thinking as you do in general. It's weird man.

Wiring numerous/all of the solenoids/zones in one's sprinkler/irrigation system to a single pump is common practice, assuming you don't mess up your pressure/flow ratings by having too many or too large of zones drawing on the pump at once (hence me taking the time to pick at the brain of someone more knowledgable about this, Crushn's been a real sport taking time out of his day to help a beginner like myself). The system will have a couple ball valves near the pump that T off to a gardening hose outlet for hand-watering for any reason. Seems good to me. Thanks for your help man.

I openly bowed over to Crushnyuba some time ago, and have since been simply chewing things over, and polishing. A forum is a library. Some time this will be read again by somebody that values two opinions. I shouldn't of spoke about your friend though.

I have a stepper motor pump and drive in front of me, with more bits in the post. Such a thing is good with feed injection fertigation when the supply pressure is varied. The flow at the emitters needs to be a known value for calibration. Or a fancy pants controller won't be able to deliver volumetrically or plot out a crops consumption. Using a big green barrel, the head can only change a meter. So even without pressure regulation, your delivery is known. That would need pumps that deliver the right amount of water, at the right pressure, out the box. Pressure regulation using electronic means offers one real gain over mechanical methods, when a larger pump calls for such measures.

Fancy pump drives are quieter. They use just enough power, and no more. Many PWM based drives now have a current setting for the off time. Rather than on/off/on/off cycling, it's on/lower/on/lower. But ultimately, why have just variable frequency when you can get a variable frequency variable voltage inverter drive. With a smooth sinewave output at a tailored frequency and voltage.

I'm not sure if the blue box sends pwm data for a fancy pump, or just calls for any pump. I'm guessing it just calls for a pump, for the full duration of the fertigation. So in inverter drive booster pump is a possibility, but a submersible is harder to trip over. Perhaps with a pressure relief valve that returns the excess to the tank, to really stir it.

You probably said that crushnyuba, but I get lost when tradesmen use abbreviations. I didn't instantly recognise VFD though I'm sat looking at one.

Anyway.. I'm just a bystander.

 

[CrushnYuba]

You don't have to bow over or anything like that. I use this site instead of Instagram because it's a forum where things are discussed shared. Instead of someone just posting pictures of their grow. I know allot about infra structure. I don't know allot about botany. That's how information gets shared.
None of this overpriced fancy pants shit is worth it or necessary. Orbit makes smart WiFi irrigation controllers for 80$. I didn't recommend a fancy overpriced controller or a VFD.

Fancy vfd pump motors aren't really necessary either. When i talk about mechanically holding steady pressure over different flows, I'm talking about cycle stop valves. They are ingeniously simple. Adding a CSV valve to a regular AC pump setup will do everything that a VFD pump can do. Pressure stays the same over a broad flow range and power consumption is reduced with lower flows. Its just a little special mechanical valve between the pump and a SMALL pressure tank. Its similar to a pressure regulator. Its not electrical at all. Fancy VFD pump drives are not really any more efficient power consumption wise.

If you want to do fertilizer injection, i suggest doing that mechanically also. Use a water driven doser pump similar to a dosatron. Because it's driven by water, no matter your flow, you have the same injection dilution. Water flows faster, it pumps faster. They can be had for as little as 80$.

I don't used any specialized stuff. I don't shop at hydro stores for ANYTHING. I use regular stuff that is used every day in homes and gardens.