how do autoflowers auto flower?

[tSoG]

thanks for the input. I'll see if I can get a copy of the book for my library I'd experiment, but I don't have easy access to any outstanding AF genetics.

 

[tSoG]

bumping myself, I haven't had much luck finding anything more about this. I'm looking for some AF to experiment with currently. the goal is to stabilize two AF strains, one for high CBD content, and another backcrossed into a 20week thai. there is no way I can grow a long flowering sativa outdoors locally, unless it starts flowering early, which is not typical of long flowering sativas...


any other hypotheses for controlling flowering in AF stable strains?

 

[figment42]

I was thinking it was a hormone myself..less roots. Giving an auto 1000 gallons of soil wouldn't make it a tree.....would it?

Mossy said that he had success cloning autos by clipping of the flowers to prolong the life of the plants. While it might not have been the best, he said a clone was bringing more than it would have as a branch. Just showing it could be done not that is practical.

I have read that some said that a high dose of super thrive in flowering can stop the flowering or at least interrupt it in 12/12s(this could all be opinion of a super thrive hater). If that is true or not I have no clue I only use super thrive in the beginning of the plant's life cycles. Never used any on flowering plants. If that was true then tests could be done on autos to see if there was anything going on there. If someone could crack the mother puzzle of autos there would be a lot of happy people. I personally believe that is possible(if) through the use of a chemical.

 

[vicious bee]

Want to know about flowering. Here.
http://plantcellbiology.masters.grk...And_Development10-Physiology_Of_Flowering.htm

 

[Stress_test]

from what i gather and in my newbie opinion...
because of their short life cycle(especially the veg stage), AFs need to receive a lot of light to maximize their growth,the more light they get the faster they grow and produce buds."More light More buds,Less light Less buds".

as to cloning, it is not advisable as it disrupts the plants cycle and diminish yield.if cloned the cutting will be too weak to carry the weight of the buds if ever.

but stick around you'll get answers soon enough...there are lots of experts here.

Peace

This isn't really entirely accurate either.
Myself and another guy in CA have been working with a couple of AF strains for a couple of years now and so far most of the "written information" available about AF's is only partly true and much of it is completely wrong.

I have been cloning AF's reliably for over 2 years.

they auto flower when the root system has fully colonized it's growing space. if it's a true auto-flowering plant it will flower under 24 hours of light no matter what.

True...
However there are a couple of controls we have tested that can definitely alter how a plants roots develop.
One key element is the temps of the pot and the plant. My tests have shown that if the soil is kept warm and the ambient temp of the plant is rather cool (50-60F) the plant develops stronger and while it does take about an extra week to flower, the plant will double in size and yield.

Good questions. I've read a little about flowering and I believe it's due to hormone build up. In the Thale Cress, which is a plant that is used as a model in genetic engineering. There is a gene called CONSTANS that if destroyed causes it to flower independent of the light period. The gene normally encodes proteins based on the light period. There is a very, very good book that I read that info in called,""Seed to Seed, The Secret Life of Plants" by Nicholas Harberd . It's not heavy duty reading but covers how the different hormones, cells, etc. operate in plants. It's well worth reading. Most plants have hormones that are always balanced by other hormones. I say hormones it's really more like proteins.
The question you posed about the different lighting period is a good one. You can do alternate lighting periods with digital timers like the X-10.
I grow in little cups and I don't believe it changes the flowering cycle due to root restriction. They won't get a big though.

Temperature was mentioned. Cold temperatures will slow flowering and make the plant grow longer. Not bigger though because while it grows longer it also grows slower.

I have seen very little difference in the size/yield from adjusting the light period, that is 20/4, 18/6 opposed to 24/7. The only noticeable differences will be seen between 24/7 and 12/12 during the flower stage. Longer than 24hr will stunt the plants and diminish size/yield and in many cases causes the plant to seize altogether.

The most efficient operation I have found for AF's is definitely from clones in 1-1/2 or 2 gal. pots.
Soil temps= warm
Lights on temps= warm (50-60)
Lights off temps= cool (40-50) EDITED HERE: NO lower or plants tend to seize.

The best trick for cloning an AF is to snip the tips as soon as the first signs of flower appears, and snip them all. Wait 2 weeks under CFL's and take your cuts.
I have been using *Lola*'s KY-gel/root-tone pre-cloning method with great success.
Clones should be set directly into 6" pots. I set the pots w/dirt in the sink and completely saturate them before planting the clones. The pots are set onto heated table and the room is kept rather cool for 1 week. Once they begin flowering (usually @ around 3 weeks) then flipped to 12/12 with temps bumped up about 5 degrees.

Growth is slightly slower, in fact it adds about 2 weeks per run. But the plants double in size/yield and the buds will be rock hard.

I have 4 generations of mothers currently plus the babies. The GG-Grandmother was started from seed last March, with cuttings taken every 2 weeks. I keep my mothers under 4- 4' T5's on heat pads and the room temp around 45F. As soon as the clones establish roots the room temp is raised 10-15 degrees and they grow about like usual.

Side by side grows have (SO FAR) shown that AF's grown in cooler air temps and warm soil temps develop buds faster, bigger, tighter and crystal build up is way better than when grown using standard accepted temps.

 

[Stress_test]

I was going to add as well, that true AF"s are of Ruderalis genetics.
Ruderalis is ideal for cultivation in cooler climates and areas where conditions are harsh.

 

[tSoG]

this might be stupid, but I've not really seen much info on the subject...

are the genes that force/induce flowering incremental, or on/off? can anyone recommend some reading material besides the link posted

Want to know about flowering. Here.
http://plantcellbiology.masters.grk...And_Development10-Physiology_Of_Flowering.htm

I ask because while I would like some pure AF genetics, I'd also like to have some genetics that are healthy and stable vegetative in 24, or 20/4 lighting, but start flowering in 18/6 or 16/8 lighting schedule. I'm reading that link VB, but dang it's a lot of info.

I was going to add as well, that true AF"s are of Ruderalis genetics.
Ruderalis is ideal for cultivation in cooler climates and areas where conditions are harsh.

any recommendation for stable AF genetics to start a breeding program with, and to experiment with, in general? keyword being stable, I tried roadrunner, and while there are some good genetics, I got 4 vastly different phenotypes, and never got a chance to breed them.
landrace ruderalis or the like? I like what the dutch do, but I personally believe that what they market, and what I'm after aren't similar enough to be a proper starting point.

 

[Zygote]

Want to know about flowering. Here.
http://plantcellbiology.masters.grk...And_Development10-Physiology_Of_Flowering.htm

Vere good link vicious bee

My hypnoses on the auto gene.
My hypnoses is
LHY late elongated hypocotyl gene
and/or
TOC1 Timing of CAB expression 1 gene
is responsible for flowering in Day-Neutral Cannabis, aka Auto-Flowering Cannabis.

I base this on the genetic (DNA mapping) work that has bend dun on Rosales.

The specie Cannabis is in the Cannabaceae family, which is in the order Rosales.




The dominant late elongated hypocotyl (lhy) disrupted circadian clock regulation of gene expression and leaf movements and caused flowering to occur independently of photoperiod. LHY was shown to encode a MYB DNA-binding protein. Increased LHY expression from a transgene caused the endogenous gene to be expressed at a constant level, suggesting that LHY was part of a feedback circuit that regulated its own expression. Thus, constant expression of LHY disrupts several distinct circadian rhythms and LHY may be closely associated with the central oscillator of the circadian clock. Of the central circadian clock genes, homologs of LHY and TOC1 were present in our EST libraries and GDR, respectively, but CCA1 was lacking from Rosaceae databases.


The list of circadian clock genes
o Gene, At locus tag, Name, Biological function
o LHY, AT1G01060, Late elongated hypocotyl, Myb domain TF
o CCA1, AT2G46830, Circadian clock associated 1, Myb domain TF
o TOC1, AT5G61380, Timing of CAB expression 1, Pseudo-response regulator
o LUX, AT3G46640, Lux arrythmo, Myb TF
o ELF4, AT2G40080, Early flowering 4, Unknown
o GI, AT1G22770, Gigantea, Unknown
o TIC, AT3G22380, Time for coffee, Unknown
o PRR3, AT5G60100, Pseudo response regulator 3, Pseudo-response regulator
o PRR5, AT5G24470, Pseudo response regulator 5, Pseudo-response regulator
o PRR7, AT5G02810, Pseudo response regulator 7, Pseudo-response regulator
o PRR9, AT2G46790, Pseudo response regulator 9, Pseudo-response regulator
o ELF6, AT5G04240, Early flowering 6, Jumonji/zinc finger-class TF

 

[Stress_test]

Well the first thing you need to do is find a vendor here that will sell you Ruderalis seeds. They grow nice but produce 0 THC, but you will need a it to stabilize anything you cross.
Next maybe work off of a LR#2. And all of the LR#2 I have grown were pretty stable and perfect for first grows. (Beautiful when crossed with a Purple Kush)

But I have been seeing more AF's than ever lately, it won't be hard for you to find 1 that fits your space and what you want it to do.

 

[MrBlue2]

will IAF flower automatically then?? ...or is it just super early? i've been interested in this strain for a minute and might try it down the road.

i'd be super interested to know how it clones if it's not a true AF.

cheers!

AIF is not a true autoflower. All strains require different photoperiods to induce flowering. True autos will flower automatically regardless of photoperiod. giving them less then ideal conditions will cause an increase in finishing time for all strains (including autos) but this will not increase yield. most regular strains will flower at 12/12 but some pure equatorial sativas need 13/11 to finish completely. on the flip side most non equatorial strains can start flowering anywhere from 12/12 to 20/4, with strains like AIF and guerilla gold falling closer to the 20/4 side. there are several strains out there that are advertised with as having some phenos that begin flowering around 18/6. most of these strains are early finishing outdoor strains.

 

[vicious bee]

I really appreciate your post.

I have been cloning AF's reliably for over 2 years.

I thought the clock on flowering time was set. Are you saying it is reset due to cloning? Can you do it more than once? Example: Clone a plant then take a clone from the clone.
Will the flowering time be lowered on the clone in comparison to from seed?
I found that you could cut back a male after it finished flowering and it would grow new foliage and new pollen pods. I tried this on a male I really liked just to see what would happen. I didn't get a huge amount of new pollen but I got a usable amount. It was worth doing.

I have seen very little difference in the size/yield from adjusting the light period, that is 20/4, 18/6 opposed to 24/7. The only noticeable differences will be seen between 24/7 and 12/12 during the flower stage. Longer than 24hr will stunt the plants and diminish size/yield and in many cases causes the plant to seize altogether.

I don't understand. Do you mean...that is 20/4, 18/6 opposed to 24/0. The only noticeable differences will be seen between 24/0 and 12/12 during the flower stage. Longer than 20hr will stunt the plants and diminish size/yield...(yes I know 24/7 is possible with digital controls but it's unusual)
I'll tell you something I've noticed. Pollen production is much higher at 24/0 than 18/6.

I have 4 generations of mothers currently plus the babies. The GG-Grandmother was started from seed last March, with cuttings taken every 2 weeks.

GG=Guerilla Gold?

tSoG asked,"I would like some pure AF genetics, I'd also like to have some genetics that are healthy and stable vegetative in 24, or 20/4 lighting, but start flowering in 18/6 or 16/8 lighting schedule."
Guerilla Gold is you're answer. All phenotypes might not do this but some will.

Also Charger some phenotypes will do the same.
Charger
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3642999&highlight=early+skunk+Auto+Affie#post3642999

 

[Stress_test]

I thought the clock on flowering time was set. Are you saying it is reset due to cloning?

I may be entirely wrong in my analysis of what is happening with the plant, BUT I have a theory and while I have neither the botany credentials or the experience to qualify it; it does make sense to me.
I think that the lower temperatures have a whole lot to do with it, kinda like telling the plant to "Get ready set go". Like in early spring when plants are still somewhat dormant but the sun tickles em into sprouting leaves. Then at night the temps drop down again but not quite cold enough to stress the plant since it is after all a harsh climate plant, the Ruderalis.

Can you do it more than once? Example: Clone a plant then take a clone from the clone.
Will the flowering time be lowered on the clone in comparison to from seed?

Yes I have 5 generations in 3 stages now. 4 mothers, 8 in flower doing a SBS comparison of warm vs. cooler temps, and a few 4 day old clones.
Here are 4 mothers and a pure Female Ruderalis (far right).

LOL don't ask me what the red dot is. I'm NOT decorating my pot plants for Christmas... It was some weird reflection off of something.

I found that you could cut back a male after it finished flowering and it would grow new foliage and new pollen pods. I tried this on a male I really liked just to see what would happen. I didn't get a huge amount of new pollen but I got a usable amount. It was worth doing.

I don't understand. Do you mean...that is 20/4, 18/6 opposed to 24/0. The only noticeable differences will be seen between 24/0 and 12/12 during the flower stage. Longer than 20hr will stunt the plants and diminish size/yield...(yes I know 24/7 is possible with digital controls but it's unusual)

Yes I meant that 20/4, 18/6 opposed to 24/0 during the veg life cycle. Somebody had asked about running day/night schedule with days longer than 24 hrs. My comment was that in my experience it would stunt the plant and possibly seize it. The only noticeable differences will be seen between 24/0 and 12/12 during the flower stage. 12/12 does definitely increase yield and potency. You can run 18/6 if you want, but for the pennies saved in power you won't see much difference either way and you have to buy a timer that can fail and screw things up.

I'll tell you something I've noticed. Pollen production is much higher at 24/0 than 18/6.

GG=Guerilla Gold?

tSoG asked,"I would like some pure AF genetics, I'd also like to have some genetics that are healthy and stable vegetative in 24, or 20/4 lighting, but start flowering in 18/6 or 16/8 lighting schedule."
Guerilla Gold is you're answer. All phenotypes might not do this but some will.

Also Charger some phenotypes will do the same.
Charger
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3642999&highlight=early+skunk+Auto+Affie#post3642999

I have access to a GG clone and I really like the looks of it but it just wasn't really potent. But then again there is no way of knowing how adulterated the strain would be either. I might try a new grow from a vendor and compare em someday.

I am also anxious to see what this cross will do outside if planted in early spring or late summer.

 

[tSoG]

a pure Female Ruderalis (far right).

mind telling me where a SoG can get that

very interesting info, low temps and what not. that'll have to be part of my experiment. how do you keep your temps so low?

 

[Stress_test]

mind telling me where a SoG can get that

very interesting info, low temps and what not. that'll have to be part of my experiment. how do you keep your temps so low?

I live in a cold state. My rooms are elevated with an open crawlspace underneath, which cools it in the winter, the 1-1/2 gal. pot hold heat and the room has a small heater that blows warmer air above the pots and across the plants, just like your fans. Summer grows I use AC or do outside in early spring or late summer/early fall.

I have only been able to find 1 place where I could order them. We found a vendor in Russia who had listed them for sale in the back of a magazine. We each ordered about 100 seeds at the time and both of us are wishing we had ordered more.
I only have about half of them left, but am going to do a seed grow when my rooms are available for a long enough period.

I know that some of these vendors have got to have them. How else could they offer the crosses? I also know that the crosses DO begin losing the AF trait after about 8 or 9 generations and then the Rudi genes need to be re-introduced. Otherwise they will begin slowing down or becoming dependent on photo-period again, and you have to coax them to flower. The percentage of plants that do not AF will increase with each successive grow.
I have been cloning these AF's with about 80-90% success, but suspect that this will be true with clones also, but I haven't tested that theory yet.
I also suspect that the clones will degenerate at about the same rate as they lose the AF trait. At about 8 or 9 generations of clones, then the Rudi and parent genes need to be re-introduced.
(I THINK) And I say "think" because I am just now confident that this strain is stable and haven't had the time or the space to test our theories with the exception of generational seeds.

The really nice aspect of this arrangement is that my BC buddy is doing the exact same tests that I am, so we have 2 grows each cycle to compare notes on and while I am limited to 15 plants because of the MMJ laws here; he can run 50 per cycle.

EDIT: Also, AF's CAN be cloned after they are crossed. However pure Ruderalis' are harder and the resulting clones are generally weaker plants. So if you get seeds, do a seed grow from the start and try to seed 1 female every cycle. That way you can always back up if you don't like the results of new crosses. Until seed suppliers get with the program and make AF's using the Ruderalis traits instead of breeding AF's with stressed fem's then Rudi seeds will remain hard to find.

 

[tSoG]

I live in a cold state. My rooms are elevated with an open crawlspace underneath, which cools it in the winter, the 1-1/2 gal. pot hold heat and the room has a small heater that blows warmer air above the pots and across the plants, just like your fans. Summer grows I use AC or do outside in early spring or late summer/early fall.

I know that some of these vendors have got to have them. How else could they offer the crosses?

I suppose I could always put a cabinet in my garage, or basement. ~55 degrees year round, or pull air from there into a grow room. A friend suggested I turn an old, but working, fridge into a grow cab for him. increase light intensity + cooltube + heatpump = enough wattage to bleach every leaf in there and still run below 70 degrees lights on, or run average light intensity and keep temps cool enough to veg/clone rudy genetics... project for another day perhaps.

I've also been quite interested in some hemp genetics, only problem being hermaphroditic qualities that are undesirable for most people, but I agree, the Ruderalis genes must be somewhere, because breeders are using them. I just wonder if they assume there is no demand, and therefore have no desire to market it...

either way, I hope that it becomes available somehow...

thanks for your input!

 

[vicious bee]

I don't think hardly anyone uses pure Ruderalis. They all start with LR2 or some other auto to get the autoflower gene. My opinion. I've read and seen pics of Ruderalis wild grows. This one guy in Czech Republic said that in the wild Rudy he's seen all the plants in the field look very different from each other. Lots of diversity. You would have to go through a lot of them to find what you wanted.

 

[Ty_Kaycha]

...I've also been quite interested in some hemp genetics, only problem being hermaphroditic qualities that are undesirable for most people, but I agree, the Ruderalis genes must be somewhere, because breeders are using them. I just wonder if they assume there is no demand, and therefore have no desire to market it...
either way, I hope that it becomes available somehow...!

A pure Ruderalis is an awful smoke. Might as well smoke industrial hemp. Reason it's being used for Auto breeding is for it's ability to flower regardless of light schedule. It pretty much maintains a set schedule for when it flowers. So I don't think you'll ever see a pure Ruderalis being offered for sale by the larger breeders & seed banks.

You could do what other breeders have done - travel the world, collecting hemp seeds - it's amazing the diversity that's out there. I wish I had collected more seeds in my travels!

 

[tSoG]

A pure Ruderalis is an awful smoke. Might as well smoke industrial hemp. Reason it's being used for Auto breeding is for it's ability to flower regardless of light schedule. It pretty much maintains a set schedule for when it flowers. So I don't think you'll ever see a pure Ruderalis being offered for sale by the larger breeders & seed banks.

You could do what other breeders have done - travel the world, collecting hemp seeds - it's amazing the diversity that's out there. I wish I had collected more seeds in my travels!

I've read that some hemp strains have incredibly high CBD percentages, which I am quite interested in. I'd also like to have some of the high seed/oil content genetics for the day when society collapses, or legalizes fields of hemp.

 

[Stress_test]

A pure Ruderalis is an awful smoke. Might as well smoke industrial hemp. Reason it's being used for Auto breeding is for it's ability to flower regardless of light schedule. It pretty much maintains a set schedule for when it flowers. So I don't think you'll ever see a pure Ruderalis being offered for sale by the larger breeders & seed banks.

Unfortunately you are probably right about seed vendors and breeders not offering pure Ruderalis seeds. I haven'tlooked for them since we got these. I will do some checking and see what I can find, if they are that hard to get then maybe I will step up and do a seed cycle.

The auto flowering trait is merely a portion of why Ruderalis crosses are preferred by many growers. The hardy plants ability to grow in harsher weather is another reason and the ability to plant and harvest before a lot of other strains even begin flowering is another.

Imagine 150 or 200 feminized seeds planted in mid March and harvested 90ish days later even before pests are really out terrorizing plants or LEO or rippers are even considering locating grows for future raids...

 

[vicious bee]

I don't think hardly anyone uses pure Ruderalis.

Found out I was wrong about this. Someone quoted stitch who said his Super Cali Haze started with a early hungarian rudiralis. Of course this is a quote so I'm still not sure. I've often wondered why the landrace rudy wasn't used. Just cross repeatedly to get potency.