High Ambient CO2.

[Snook]

maybe he is!
§467. I am sitting with a philosopher in the garden; he says again and again “I know that that’s a tree”, pointing to a tree that is near us. Someone else arrives and hears this, and I tell him: “This fellow isn’t insane. We are only doing philosophy.”

 

[Mikell]

Sometimes when I have a pile of parts in front of me and a vague idea of how they went together, I weaken and begin to agree with the sentiment "if it ain't broke..".

But then an hour later it is working better than before (most of the time) and I am reminded the people who live by those words will never know what could have been.

Discussions like this keep me sane in a work environment where it is broken and you don't fix it.

 

[Shmavis]

maybe he is!
§467. I am sitting with a philosopher in the garden; he says again and again “I know that that’s a tree”, pointing to a tree that is near us. Someone else arrives and hears this, and I tell him: “This fellow isn’t insane. We are only doing philosophy.”

Of course there’s always that possibility.

You funny guy you Snook.

Sometimes when I have a pile of parts in front of me and a vague idea of how they went together, I weaken and begin to agree with the sentiment "if it ain't broke..".

But then an hour later it is working better than before (most of the time) and I am reminded the people who live by those words will never know what could have been.

Discussions like this keep me sane in a work environment where it is broken and you don't fix it.

I’m definitely full of vague ideas as to the proper structure of these here parts. Concrete would be preferred.

This is one of those times when time’s limitations push and pull for other pressing matters. It’s then that it seems that the path of least resistance beckons most strongly.

I know better. But making time can be work in and of itself. I’ll get the carving knife out.

Appreciate everyone’s help brainstorming — thanks!

 

[Drop That Sound]

About the RAD-0501.. http://www.co2meter.com/collections/fixed-wall-mount/products/day-night-co2-monitor-controller I been wanting to pick one up, should I go for it? Only thing that I've seen is that it must be mounted in the room, and has red , white & yellow LEDs? Rather make them all green instead, without blacking em' out. Would it be possible to paint them with whatever color comes out green? Like dab some blue paint over the red. Anyway it seems like the best controller for the price.

 

[Shmavis]

About the RAD-0501.. http://www.co2meter.com/collections/fixed-wall-mount/products/day-night-co2-monitor-controller I been wanting to pick one up, should I go for it? Only thing that I've seen is that it must be mounted in the room, and has red , white & yellow LEDs? Rather make them all green instead, without blacking em' out. Would it be possible to paint them with whatever color comes out green? Like dab some blue paint over the red. Anyway it seems like the best controller for the price.

Hi DTS.

Months ago I spent time looking for a controller with digital readout that would allow me to set trigger points. At the time I couldn’t find anything under $300. So I wasn’t going to get one unless I seal up my room and run a mini. Then I read your thread where you asked about the RAD-0501. I followed your link to Amazon and was sold after reading its description and seeing the price. Thanks!

To your question: I usually use foil tape to cover any non green LEDs. But I’m not going to with this controller since it claims the following: Non-UV Emitting LED's - no interference with the grow cycle.

As of yet I haven’t used it to cycle the generator. I’ve just been using it for its readout capability... I’ll be mounting it in the room this weekend and firing up the generator to see how it does cycling it.

Thanks again and good luck!

 

[Bob-Zilla]

I discovered this a few years back. co2 levels indoors are usually moderately high. Lack of fresh air circulation(most if not all places are air conditioned and/or heated and therefore enclosed) along with human and pet breathing raises levels very quickly. Most places I tested with a new portable meter, much like yours, including occupied houses,apts,commercial buildings,retail stores,ect, all had levels over 1000ppm on avg.

 

[Snook]

Of course there’s always that possibility.

You funny guy you Snook.

was running out of suggestions and I try to find humor in most things... thanks... I think..

 

[Shmavis]

was running out of suggestions and I try to find humor in most things... thanks... I think..

You think just fine sir.

Your reply made me laugh. I like your humor.

If my reply made it seem otherwise, it’s just ‘cause I was so damn high last night.

I discovered this a few years back. co2 levels indoors are usually moderately high. Lack of fresh air circulation(most if not all places are air conditioned and/or heated and therefore enclosed) along with human and pet breathing raises levels very quickly. Most places I tested with a new portable meter, much like yours, including occupied houses,apts,commercial buildings,retail stores,ect, all had levels over 1000ppm on avg.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to share, Bob-Zilla. Really appreciate it. I was hoping maybe someone would say it’s not that far out of the norm to find such numbers. It gives me a little peace of mind. But, that you’re the only one to do so gives me pause... I wonder if it’s just that others haven’t measured outside their room. I would think most folks using a controller of this sort would be running in a sealed room, which would be independent of the atmosphere outside it. Therefore, (possibly?), not knowing the reading outside the room.

I take it this testing you were doing, given that the types of enclosures varied so much, along with the number of them, was for some form of air analysis? Not asking for specifics - don’t mean to pry - as to why you were doing this, as much as asking if those numbers were relevant in some way to human habitation. (?)

I recall DHF saying (I’m paraphrasing) that folks would be surprised at the ambient CO2 levels if they measured them. Numbers this high, though?

The little monitor has a trend chart. I need to sit down and cross reference this with a timeline.

Does the flatline correlate with my absence? What exactly in a room that is independent of the house's system, i.e., no vents/registers in the room, is causing levels to rise and fall as they are... 250 PPM swing... the cause, yeah, it's here somewhere...

Now, where'd I leave that bong...

 

[rykus]

I had work safe come through a wharehouse i managed for a while, they said in Canada work safe is fine with up to 20,000 ppm steady... apparently it only affects humans after about 80,000 ppm when it displaces oxygen down 1% about, if i remember correct, from 18% to 17% where it can cause dizzyness and other symptoms...

but yeah i might invest in a carbon monoxide alarm if you suspect shady gas applainces..

 

[Drop That Sound]

Oh & NP man! Thanks for giving one a test run, and side by side, now I finally better pick up a few before they go out of stock!

Here's some other awesome controllers I've found:
https://www.amazon.com/WILLHI-WH1436H-Digital-Humidity-Controller/dp/B005DK2T2Y
& https://www.amazon.com/WILLHI-WH1436A-110V-Temperature-Controller/dp/B00V4TJR00/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471503305&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=willhi+temperature+controller&psc=1
They're a little tricky but work great and have so many settings!

Also The "STC-1000", for temp is even cheaper, just cut an extension cord up for the wiring. Some companies have a Humidity version just like it. comes in AC and DC, F or C!

Ya I also usually foil tape everything , always trying to improve things though...

Hope you get it figured out, some houses are just sealed up too well, and not enough ventilation. With 2 c02 meters you should be able to triangulate in on the source!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercapnia

 

[Drop That Sound]

Almost forgot, not sure if would help but I've been checking out how to make "Heat Recovery Ventilators". It uses a cross opposed flowing air to air core and has 4 ports, 2 intake and 2 exhausts, with 2 fans.. and basically it captures 70% of the heat you are pumping out of the room and sends it back in as fresh air. With a dual core HRV it is like 95% efficient!! They are actually designed for sealed houses, and can be made DIY.

P.S. I would invest in a pet bird, if it keels over you got problems..

 

[Snook]

Almost forgot, not sure if would help but I've been checking out how to make "Heat Recovery Ventilators". It uses a cross opposed flowing air to air core and has 4 ports, 2 intake and 2 exhausts, with 2 fans.. and basically it captures 70% of the heat you are pumping out of the room and sends it back in as fresh air. With a dual core HRV it is like 95% efficient!! They are actually designed for sealed houses, and can be made DIY.

View Image

P.S. I would invest in a pet bird, if it keels over you got problems..

I will look into this DTS.. tks.. do you know how big it is? ya have a link?


EDIT: Good idea but $$$ & big.. DIY ,u know how?

 

[Mikell]

I think canary's are actually quite cheap.

 

[Shmavis]

Cheep Cheep? My luck it'll live and then I'd have to care for it. Or maybe the cat would get a helluva desert.

I had work safe come through a wharehouse i managed for a while, they said in Canada work safe is fine with up to 20,000 ppm steady... apparently it only affects humans after about 80,000 ppm when it displaces oxygen down 1% about, if i remember correct, from 18% to 17% where it can cause dizzyness and other symptoms...

but yeah i might invest in a carbon monoxide alarm if you suspect shady gas applainces..

Thanks Rykus.

You sure those numbers are really PPMs and not some other form of measurement? They’re really high. I have two smoke alarms with carbon monoxide alarms built in. Pretty sure I'm safe in terms of carbon monoxide poisoning - neither has ever went off.

Even the little monitor I have doesn’t want to see levels around the 1000 PPM level. It has an alarm/warning system on it. There are more, but here are a few of the alarms that have scrolled across it:

1. Air feeling stiff? Go outside for awhile, vent rate 9 LPS
2. Your air could be fresher. Vent rate 11 LPS
3. You may feel drowsiness, pop open a window. Vent rate 7 LPS

I didn’t recored PPM at the time I saw ! & 2. But 3 was at 1130 PPM.

From what I can gather looking around online, my levels are high, but not a major health concern. And often very difficult to find a specific cause. Here’s a webpage I found that provides a nice summary:

http://healthybuildingscience.com/2013/06/05/co2-in-the-air/

Interesting that it links to an HRV like DTS shared. And on that topic, I don’t see how an HRV would do this for a grow room:

... and basically it captures 70% of the heat you are pumping out of the room and sends it back in as fresh air.

Unless I'm not seeing something correctly, neither of the exhaust ports indicate fresh cool air... the fresh air exhaust is warmed air... do you mean to exhaust both ports into a room and by doing so - mixing fresh warm air with cool stale air - that one could cool their room with an HRV?

Thanks DTS for the controller links. Those are great prices. I've been thinking about building a drying cabinet and those may work great for it.

So I'm thinking I'll move forward using these elevated levels to my advantage for this season, and come the end of spring have a professional in to see what I'd need to do.

Thanks a lot everyone!

 

[Drop That Sound]

Some guys have been making DIY HRVs since the 80's out of coroplast, the plastic sheet they use for signs with hollow channels that air can flow through . Probably doesn't work as well as metal plates but if you made a dual core version out of it it would still be super efficient.

I imagine they could work the opposite, and keep cool air conditioned air inside in the summer, and hot air for the winter . Not sure about that though. There is no mixing of air in an HRV it just transfers heat through the core from the air flowing through one side of it to the other.

I also just seen what they call an ERV by aerofresh, alot cheaper! Same concept except that it uses a ceramic core and only 2 ports one for intake and exhaust. The way it works is as it is pumping hot air out, it heats the core, and then every 70 seconds it reverses the fan flow to suck cold air back in along with the heat that just built back up in the core and vice versa. A regular HRV does the same thing but at the same time( the core allows flow from 2 directions), so no delays or switching fan flows.

I am working on a passive veg room that uses 2 motorized dampers, one always open one always closed, from the exhaust fan. One vents right out side, and the other back to the lung room or wherever i need it so I can recycle air when its cold out. The lung room thermostat (an STC-1000) is what triggers the dampers on and off. My next plan is to add a HRV inline with the air that is recycled so it is nice and fresh all the time, without loosing that heat and having to run a heater. It will hopefully keep the humidity and c02 levels in check, without being sealed!

All in all I think its a great way to freshen air without losing energy. I haven't seen anyone use one either for growing. I might be the first

 

[Drop That Sound]

Here's what a dual core, double cross flow configuration would look like btw. (edited some guys picture to show the flow)

I will make something like this but more compact and with aluminum cores. Maybe use 16 oz aluminum cans cut up as panels with spacer strips to stack them up. Every layer of strips is staggered so air can flow 2 ways through the core only. The more cores you can use the better. Supposedly just 2 is 95% efficient!

 

[Shmavis]

Here's what a dual core, double cross flow configuration would look like btw. (edited some guys picture to show the flow)

I will make something like this but more compact and with aluminum cores. Maybe use 16 oz aluminum cans cut up as panels with spacer strips to stack them up. Every layer of strips is staggered so air can flow 2 ways through the core only. The more cores you can use the better. Supposedly just 2 is 95% efficient!

Thanks DTS for sharing this. I won't pretend to fully understand yet exactly how this contraption works. But I think you're onto something insofar that it could be modified to use for a grow room.

I'm thinking it could even be housed in a weather proof enclosure and placed outside... with the intake fan for outside air on a temp controller within the room... kind of a poor man's mini-split... conditioning the super cold winter air before bringing it into the room to lower temps... hmmm...

Please keep us updated. I'd like to hear how it works out for you.

Thanks again!

 

[Drop That Sound]

It's older technology that is making a comeback. I can't believe the prices though. They sure try to make it look fancy for all the extra $1,000's they expect you to pay for a metal box with 2 moving parts, a cheap core, and some ducting, etc.

I think I understand what you mean.. Outside you would just need to be able to keep the core from ever freezing up.

Inside in a sealed room you have an opposing intake and exhaust port, with 2 insulated air ducts leading back outside to the unit, with the air flowing through a inline temp controlled fan, and one pathway through the core. The sensor placed in the room.

The other pathway going through the core just passes the ambient air inside the second enclosure through it. You could hook another temp controller to that fan as well, and place the sensor in the enclosure.

That would be 2 independent temp controllers, with 4 setpoints working to make sure the system stays balanced! The room would be completely sealed no air would mix with the air outside.

 

[Drop That Sound]

I present:

 

[Shmavis]

I present:

I like it! Very nice DTS. Thank-you.

That’s pretty much what I was thinking. The one exception would be the exhaust inline that you’ve placed inside the house. Would it be possible to include it in the enclosure outside like the intake fan - to isolate noise? It would probably take some modifying of the wiring... needing additional length... but should be doable, right? Could just run a scrubber in the room with this setup for the stank...