Help please - the best ph level for misting?

[Verite]

I have seen people increase both yields and potency but I havent seen it done with misting. The info is out there if youre open to it. Sometimes it works better than clinging to a bad idea like misting ground leaf material. Best of luck since this hasnt much to do with science.

 

[bubbl3r]

Yes King j, thank you for your post.

It's becommng more and more interesting to hear about the lengths that folks will go to, in pursuit of that extra bit of excellence. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and experience of growers like yourself, and welcome your comments.

I must say at this stage I dont have any intention in getting envolved with waste be it human or otherwise, but I do find it interesting that you manipulate your worm diets to create a tailor made product......very creative!

Going back to the tea and Cannibal Effect, I realise at some stage I'm gonna have to reach for a big thick juicy book about plant micro biology, and its gonna get way too deep and technical.
Always a chance of getting mentally paralised by the terminology. So I'm hoping some of the more giftedly minded say graduate or simply more enlightened growers out there, could explain the rudiments of leaf dynamics and the leaves ability to absorb and utilise elements and compounds. Carbon dioxide, plant sugars and even chlorophyll , and to what degree or affect ph has on the processes therein.

A big ask maybe, but I'm sure there's a few that wouldn't mind chipping in their 10 cents worth. In the meantime I'm looking up "tea making" and would welcome some useful links.


Bubbl3r

 

[bubbl3r]

Verite my old friend, I havent given up on you....lol

So far we have heard evidence to the contrary about misting, as far as improving on growth and yeild is concerned.

Fuzzbang' stated ......."myself Ive found an increase in growth rate and yeild. we say this because we were curious and did a med size run of WR and half the garden was root watered only, the other half foliar and root fed.. holy shit what a diffrence a good foliar/root fed grow can produce."

The next step would be to improve on potentcy, if at all possible.

Regarding the Cannibal Effect I theorised about, I still havent heard any contary evidence why it couldnt work. Now I'm inviting you to politely tell me why it cant work !


Bubbl3r

 

[guineapig]

ok bubbl3r here comes the guineapig......

From what i have learned, it would be best if you could reduce the particle size of
your foliar feeding solution using a process of micronization. At the home despot you
can buy a Black Flag mosquito fogger gun which effectively micronizes water particles
into a range of 0.1 to 1 microns in diameter.....this would allow for the most effective
absorption of water by the leaf tissue and thus the integration of foliar nutrients into
the plant itself....

The second thing to do is to make sure all of your nutrients are effectively "chelated"
(chelate = greek for "crab claw") which means they are bound up into a tight loop and
will not precipitate out of solution during the brief time when they are resting on the
leaf's surface.....make sure you turn off all fans during this process, of course....

As for pH I would expect a slightly acidic solution but really i am just assuming this....
Since each nutrient works best at different pH levels, it is hard to give you one
specific pH reading which would encompass them all. For the major nutrients (NPK),
pH 6.5 would be best but for the micronutrients a lower pH of 6.0 would be best.....
But probably you are after the major nutrients so i would go with 6.5.

There are these foliar feeding products from Dutch Masters called "Folitech" and
"Penetrator" which supposedly give amazing results for foliar feeding......Personally i
suspect that the only reason the Folitech product works so well is because the
nutrients in there are very well chelated and the pH is well-stablilized but really this is
just a hypothesis......

The best time of day to Foliar Feed is in the morning or at the beginning of your light
cycle.....play some bird chirping noises while you foliar feed so the stomata will in turn
respond by opening up even wider.....or maybe just whistle while you foliar feed!!!

(although the guineapig is trained as a plant scientist, the aformentioned rodent does
not claim to have all the answers about foliar feeding or any other aspect of plant
physiology.....but the literature will be searched for further answers to your querie....)

kind regards from the guineapig

 

[mace_ecam]

I have seen people increase both yields and potency but I havent seen it done with misting. The info is out there if youre open to it. Sometimes it works better than clinging to a bad idea like misting ground leaf material. Best of luck since this hasnt much to do with science.

I agree, i would even go as far to say that nutes do not increase yield, as long as they have everything the plant needs at the right rate. Once the needs are satisfied, an increase in nutes will not increase yield.
There might be an advantage with foliar feeding for soil growers, but hydro folks that do it are missing an important point of hydro imo.

I mean, would you feed your plant's human shit, or say dog shit?...No, then what's so special about horse's shit anyway?

None of the "crap" you mentioned is used as a fertilizer for cannabis, for good reasons

 

[sweetgreendream]

There might be an advantage with foliar feeding for soil growers, but hydro folks that do it are missing an important point of hydro imo.

Don't leave me/us hanging?

 

[Fuzzbang]

hmmmmmmm.
I was turned on to foliar/feeding by my grandmother who was a plant nut.
the comparison grow I mentioned was done at the request of my growpartner
she wanted to know if it made a difference [yes honey u still have to spray] the answer for this grow was yes.
sure to validate one would have to repeat this over and over large scale in an attempt to capture the varialble's
u could easily say oh it must have been inferior genetics that led half a grow of the same strain/breeder, same grow room etc. to look like underachievers.
It works for us makes us happy and thats what counts
my mentor years ago informed that fan leaf 's were a food factory and it was logical to develop a good foliar feed. the plants respond with vigorus robust growth and in my opinion turn out better flowers. as for potency increase its a matter of the plant reaching its full potential with foliar/feed that i equate with more sting to the stone versus non-foliar fed.

Bubbl3r its a person like u who pushes the envelope that I envy. My public HS eduction is not gonna help u. I do think your onto something Ive always wondered what the science to foliar feed was about. I sure do believe it can be expanded on and hope u continue in thid quest. Ive seen misting in proffesionel greenhouses and was wondering is it just water andcurious about the whole process.

 

[mace_ecam]

Don't leave me/us hanging?

Hi sweetgreendream,

isn't a hydro system the best way to make nutrients accessible to the roots and therefore to the whole plant?
The reality is that hydro is very good in delivering nutes to the plant, often too good, leading to burns. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

In a proper working hydro setup foliar feeding is obsolete and is more likely to cause troubles. Of course this is just a generalization, there might be some additives that work best on the leafes, but i seriously doubt that its the case for the major nutrients, the ones that are already present in the nutrient solution.

mace

 

[bubbl3r]

Hi everyone, and apologies that I haven't responded sooner.

Mace, I agree with you entirely that hydro is a very efffective way to deliver nutes to the plant, and the right rates are important at each stage of growth, but to suggest that you merely have to give the plant sufficient nutes maybe missing the point.

I've heard the plants flowering stage described as a race against time, with fading light to produce flowers and resin to protect potential seeds from being consumed by birds etc. I imagine that the plant would require a lot of its energy to produce its best, in terms of yeild and potentcy.

I don't believe its simply a matter of efficent feeding. I mean if there was a race between two people running around a track, and they were both fed exactly the same amount of food throughout their entire life, but one ended up 20 stone and full of flab, and the other was Ben Johnson, who would you put your money on?
In terms of racing then it maybe a "steroid" that's required, to get the job done. If you want to lift heavier weights or run faster then you need bigger stronger muscles, its that simple.
There may well be possibilites to "inject" energy in the final phases, though or into the leaves to boost the plants yeild and potentcy far beyond todays current results.

Foliar "feeding" may have been completely overlooked or simply not investigated throughly enough. There's a lot of concentration and science gone into root feeding, but not enough shown in the capacity and potential of the leaves.

I remember the first time I heard folks were growing cannabis in air without soil, and thinking thats some kind of a joke. Then the first time I was told that they were now growing in solution, and thinking that just can't be true, surely the plant would starve of oxygen and keel over. Now of course all totally accepted methods of growing.

Its time we all took a closer look and explored in detail, what is and isn't possible with foliar feeding, and its effects on yeild and potentcy.

Bubbl3r

 

[bubbl3r]

Hi Fuzzbang, thanks for the compliment, and lets hope there's enough talented folks out there that want to join in, and help to develope a foliar feeding method, that will push to the limit.

It's reassuring that you've seen better results through your own efforts in foliar feeding up to now. Unitl recently, I assumed the only benefits were to health and growth, but now believe a marked increase in final yeild, and especially potency may be possible.

Bubbl3r

 

[bubbl3r]

Hi Guineapig, nice of you to drop in, and explain some of the science we are craving for in this thread!

I suspected the fogger method may be the best delivery system to foliar feeding, and have noticed the fairly cool temperatures achieved. I heard it could do wonders for newly rooted clones down to the high air to nute ratio's, and suspect the same applies here with "feed"to Co2 levels. It may well have great potential for transporting Co2 onto the suface of the leaf, and the surrounding area.

On the subject of "chelated nutes " I've found some interesting info about 2 acids which have strangely just appeared as if by magic, on the shelf at my local hydro shop (funny thing that).
One is called Humic acid and the other is called Fulvic acid. I wonder if you've heard of them?
So far I've learned one is used to break down organic matter, like with composting, and the other to do this "chelating" process you've mentioned.
Do you have any experience with these, and can you give any guidelines to using them?

With regards to your second point, I wonder if you can think of a way to test the ph of a healthy leaf?
My guess is that it will be close to 7 or higher, but I can't think of an acurate way using my ph meter or droplets.
Maybe litmus paper would be best. Either way if you can do a test, then we would appreciate your findings.



Guineapig, your comments have been enlightening and I look forward to hearing more. I shall definitely look to install the bird songs, and maybe even some buzzing bee sounds in the latter stage of flowering .....thanks!

 

[king j]

heres a little article about the humic substances

Humic Acid comes entirely from vegetation which was laid down in the Carboniferous Period . Millions of years ago, earth's mineral-rich soils produced a profusion of lush green forests, succulent fruits and vegetables.

As this lush growth of vegetation died, it accumulated and later, was buried by rock and mudflows and deposits of sand and silt. The weight of these deposits compacted and compressed out all of the moisture.

Over the ages, the vegetation underwent compaction and heating. It slowly carbonized and became coal.

This compaction squeezed out the organic acids and esters present in the vegetation and formed a pool on top of the lignite coal bed. This pool dried and aged and eventually formed Leonardite shale. What remains today is a deposit of dried, prehistoric plant derivatives.

During this process simple products of decomposition: amino acids, carbohydrates and phenols, turn into very complex products - Humic Acids.

Because of its vegetative origin, this material is very rich and beneficial to plants today.

In natural conditions humic acids are not soluble. It is a reaction of nature, otherwise soils could be deprived of humus and washed out to sea.

Humates are the salts of humic acids, which form complexes with phosphorus and micro elements which are easy assimilated by plants, and sharply increase efficiency of mineral fertilizers.

Humate materials are widely distributed organic carbon containing compounds, found in soils, fresh water, and oceans, and make up approximately 75 percent of the organic matter that exists in most mineral soils. Humates play a direct role in determining the production potential of a soil.

Quality:
Not all the products on the market under the name Humates are of a high quality.

There are several different chemical structures of Humic Acid. The more concentrated forms are the best and in the long run, and can be the cheapest.

The first, is fossilized brown oxidized lignite or Leonardite. This product has 30- 40% humic acid content, 30-40% of mineral part -ash, and the balance is presented by unknown ballast substances. Recommended application norms of these products are very high, because humic acids in them are insoluble and are not in an active form. Mineral content of these products have metals which bind to humic acids. Long time usage of these products pollutes the soil.

The second group is produced in the common method of treatment of lignites with concentrated alkalines. The content of Humic acids of these products is within the level of 20-30%. Humates here are in active form, but they still have a high content of ballast and ash, which causes above mentioned problems.

The third group of Humates is produced in the way of treatment of brown lignite or Leonardite with alkaline solutions. These Humates are high quality products, because they are free from ballast, but they are very expensive and difficult to transport and handle. Moreover the production process leaves a lot of waste.

The fourth group are Humates produced from a high quality tested lignites, with 70% humic acid content, 12% mineral ash part and 18% organic ballast. These soluble products are in powder form with 75-85% of Humic acids.

Only two products meet those requirements; these come from East Siberia, Russia and N.W. New Mexico; these are freshwater deposits and have the highest percentage of low molecular weight humic acids, generally referred to as Fulvic acids.

Fulvic acid is the acid radical found in humic matter which is soluble in alkali, acid, methyl ethyl ketone, and methyl alcohol.
Fulvates are the salts of fulvic acid.

Both fulvic and humic acids found in soil, result from the chemical and biological degradation of dead organisms.
Fulvic acids provide multiple and natural chemical reactions in the soil, instigating positive influences on the plants' metabolic processes.

Fulvic acid is especially active in dissolving minerals and metals when in solution with water. The metallic minerals simply dissolve into ionic form, and disappear into the fulvic structure becoming bio-chemically reactive and mobile. The Fulvic acid actually transforms these minerals and metal into elaborate fulvic acid molecular complexes that have vastly different characteristics from their previous metallic mineral form. Fulvic acid is nature's way of "chelating" metallic minerals, turning them into readily absorbable bio-available forms.

Fulvic acid readily complexes with minerals and metals making them available to plant roots and easily absorbable through cell walls. It makes the actual movement of metal ions that are normally difficult to mobilize or transport. such as iron, easily transportable through plant structures.

It allows minerals to inter-act with one another, breaking them down into the simplest ionic forms, chelated by the fulvic acid electrolyte. Fulvic acid is a natural organic electrolyte.

An electrolyte is a substance that is soluble in water or other appropriate medium that is capable of conducting electrical current. Fulvic acid has proven to be a powerful organic electrolyte.

Fulvic acids also dissolve and transpose vitamins, coenzymes, auxins, hormones and natural antibiotics that are generally found throughout the soil, making them available. These substances are effective in stimulating even more vigorous and healthy growth proceeding certain bacteria, fungi, and actinomyceles in decomposing vegetation in the soil.

It has been determined that all known vitamins can be present in healthy soil .

Plants manufacture many of their own vitamins with those from the soil further supplementing the plant.
Upon ingestion these nutrients are easily absorbed by animals and humans, due to the fact that they are in perfect natural plant form as nature intended.

The majority of research and experimentation on fulvic acid, has been done in relation to plants. Yet humans have been ingesting fulvic acid complexes regularly for over 60 years in supplemental form, and for thousands of years from natural food and plant sources.

Testimonials continue to show that the beneficial properties relating to plant and cell studies, hold true in relation to animal and humans as well.

 

[king j]

how about one about chelation too

What is a chelate?
Chelates are organic molecules that can trap or encapsulate certain highly reactive trace metal cations which prevents them from entering into unwanted chemical reactions and forming insoluble compounds, which are unavailable.

Chelates incorporate metal ions into a soluble but bound form, to make them available to the plant because they are very soluble in water.

Chelation is bonding the metal ion to an organic molecule, making the metal ion highly soluble.

A chelated form of a mineral has different qualities from the mineral itself.
One quality that can change is bioavailability; the ability to absorb and use the mineral.

Bioavailability can be increased or decreased depending on the mineral-chelate complex formed.

Some synthetic metal-chelate complexs form extremely strong bonds and bind minerals so tightly that they are unavailable for their physiological functions, and if used in foliar fertilizer has a great deal of trouble releasing the metal ion once in the plant.

Metal-chelate complexes used in foliar fertilizers need to form bonds strong enough to protect them from unwanted chemical reactions but once in the plant should release easily.

Natural chelating agents do not share the problems of the synthetics and are state-of-the-art technology for delivering selected mineral and trace elements with maximum bioavailability, tolerability and safety

If a yield-limiting deficit is suspected or established then the chelated mineral applied as a foliar will address that deficit more accurately and with greater speed than any other nutrient.

These elements are far more easily absorbed by plant roots and leaves in this chelated form because of changes in the electrical charge from the trace minerals as a result of their organic encapsulation.

The chelation process removes the positive charge from the metals, allowing the neutral or slightly negatively charged, chelated molecule to slide through the pores on the leaf and root surface more rapidly.

These pores are negatively charged, so there is a problem with fixation of positively charged minerals at the pore entrance.

There is no such restrictive barrier for the neutral, chelated mineral.

 

[king j]

wait ok i got one more... this one is to stroke your ego... or else to point out foliar studies have been done just not on cannabis atleast as far as i know, maybe you will track some down and see just what they have to say.


Here are some striking examples of comparisons of foliar fertilizers versus soil applications.

Such ratios favouring foliar applications exist only under extreme conditions of soil fixation. Nevertheless, they single out the effectiveness of leaves as organs for absorption.

Related to the marked efficiency in absorption of nutritional sprays may be indirect effects of this method of applying fertilizer on other plant processes.

Comparative efficiency of foliar and soil applications of fertilizer.
Approximate ratios of amounts required for comparable Authority responses

Nutrient and salt/Type of Crop/Foliar/Soil/Authority
Zinc (ZnSO4)/Annual crops/1/ 12/ Lingle & Holmberg (1956)
Phosphorus (H3PO4)/ beans,tomatoes/ 1/ 20/ Wittwer, et al. (1957)
Iron (FeSO4)/ grain sorghum/ 1/ 25/ Withee & Carlson (1959)
Magnesium (MgSO4)/ grain sorghum/ 1/ 100/ Krantz (1962)
celery/ 1/ 50-100/ Johnson, et al.(1957, 1961)
(This used to a chart but it wont let me paste it in any organized fashion)


Where isotopes showed that it was 8 -10 times more effective to foliar feed a plant as far as the amount of nutrients required and the speed with which those nutrients were utilized, the above authorities found the figure to be between 12 and 100 times more effective.

The readily- available nutrients are more easily utilised, as they are directly available to a plant and because they do not have to be dissolved by moisture before going into the soil solution and where they may be subjected to insolubalisation by incident anions such as carbonate, bicarbonate, hydroxide, etc, known as fixation.

Also important in foliar fertilizers, is whether or not the products being used are chelated. Chelation, allows a nutrient to "maintain its own identity" within the spray tank, and not get tied up by other nutrients or pesticides being used with it.

These days we have materials available which are ideally suited to spray applications

 

[bubbl3r]

King j, nice info!

It's a lot to digest (excuse the pun). May have to read it a few times to fully absorb the material, but looks like there's some real possibilities starting to emerge here.

If the studies and percentages in foliar feeding on other plants are accurate, then thats way more efficient than I was expecting, and really opens to door to ideas and experimentation.

Bubbl3r