Help Please quick question on electricity

[Sluicebox]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Packard-...mp-Definite-Purpose-Contactor-C230A/203565740
This is the contactor that I'm considering from home depot, would be getting two of them.
I think they are only $10

 

[queequeg152]

is that double throw though? it looks single throw to me.

 

[rives]

is that double throw though? it looks single throw to me.

Yep. That is a standard NO double-pole "definite purpose" contactor.

 

[Sluicebox]

Queequed is referring to the link that I posted on the unit from home depot. Those are single throw units.

After reading what rives posted, it seems that the 40A dpdt he linked above would be the way to go.

40A breaker at main supply pannel- out to 40A dpdt relay- splits here to two 4-8 subs containing 4 double pole 20A breakers wired for 240v out to 4x 20A recepts via 12-2 AWG marking neutral as hot with black tape in subs and recepts. 4 ballasts per room.

Controlled by a 24v timer if I get the relay that has 24v coil. Will try to link that here. Will this work? It only allows me to run the lights and no aux circuits.

I chose to show this option with 20A 240V as that is how I would like to run my ballasts vs 120v.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...en-Style,_40A_(AD-PR40_Series)/AD-PR40-2C-24D

Let me know what you think and thanks again.

 

[Sluicebox]

Queequeg152 sorry to have gotten your name wrong.

Those are all older magnetic ballasts by the way.

 

[queequeg152]

Queequed is referring to the link that I posted on the unit from home depot. Those are single throw units.

After reading what rives posted, it seems that the 40A dpdt he linked above would be the way to go.

40A breaker at main supply pannel- out to 40A dpdt relay- splits here to two 4-8 subs containing 4 double pole 20A breakers wired for 240v out to 4x 20A recepts via 12-2 AWG marking neutral as hot with black tape in subs and recepts. 4 ballasts per room.

Controlled by a 24v timer if I get the relay that has 24v coil. Will try to link that here. Will this work? It only allows me to run the lights and no aux circuits.

I chose to show this option with 20A 240V as that is how I would like to run my ballasts vs 120v.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...en-Style,_40A_(AD-PR40_Series)/AD-PR40-2C-24D

Let me know what you think and thanks again.

the wiring scheme should work just fine provided you dont need a common for these 240v ballasts. far as i know you dont... or at least my personal dual voltage ballasts do not.

you will have each light on its own breaker which imo is not necessary, but it WILL work... and the breakers can function as isolation switches if necessary though id not make a habbit of using them as such.

i think you might still be a bit lost on the timer though?

the timers themselves can be powered via anything you want, but most timers do not have a powered output, rather they act similar to a relay, closing contacts when the timing condition is met.
you simply need to wire a small 24vac transformer into these timer contacts such that when they close, 24vac flows into the contactor coils.

no doubt you can find a timer with powered contacts, but i recommend something like an old school intermatic pool pump timer...they come as panel mounted units, digital... analogue, what ever.

they also sell them with plastic and metal enclosures. they are not cheap, but id use that over a wierd plug in timer deal any day of the week.


dont let the following confuse you:

you might also consider buying a 24v pilot light and install it into the contactor enclosure such that you get some sort of indication of power. it could come inhandy when troubleshooting. i get mine on ebay... can usually get real allen bradley parts for cheap(though they are beat up).

might also consider installing a SPDT toggle switch, or HOA type selector switch, or even a 'center-off' 3 way wall switch.

the switch would bypass the timer on demand such that you can test the circuit when ever.

 

[Sluicebox]

I wish that I could go back and edit this thread but I am not allowed. I can't stress enough that this thread should only be viewed as showing ones frustration and learning process in trying to do his own electrical work.

If you are viewing this thread in hopes of doing your own work I urge you to do it correctly, and hire a qualified person to at least guide you.

Please do not go off of any of the solutions that I have posted as most if not all of my ideas turned out to be wrong, and were posted only as questions to others.

That said if you choose to continue reading this thread enjoy yourself, and learn from my mistakes rather than making your own.

I wish that I would have posted this warning at the beginning of the thread,

 

[Sluicebox]

Thanks for replying Queequeg, I am waiting on a book, Ugly's electrical desk ref. Covers a bunch of stuff. I need to double check the cubic inch requirements and such. Might have to put in a box extender at j box under the range.

Also waiting on word back on a proper 24v timer, it is not a power supplying timer but one that you are referring to I think. It would just be a digital timer that would send current to the 24v coil activating the relay. This timer would be powered from an entirely different 120v circuit with a battery back up that just keeps the clock right in the event of a power outage. No power other than 24v would be emitted from this timer.

If I can get away with 2 ballasts per 20A at 240v breaker then that would be great.

I have been told that I would need a disconnect installed forward and within site of the relay. Early thoughts on that would be another small 8-4 sub pannel with a single 40A breaker that goes out to the relay. $9 for the sub and $6 or so for the breaker is the cheapest alternative I can come up with on this so far.

Your switch on the timer is a great idea, as is the pilot light showing power at the relay. Any links on that pilot would be appreciated. Thanks for your support, and advice.

 

[rives]

Controlled by a 24v timer if I get the relay that has 24v coil. Will try to link that here. Will this work? It only allows me to run the lights and no aux circuits.

I chose to show this option with 20A 240V as that is how I would like to run my ballasts vs 120v.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...en-Style,_40A_(AD-PR40_Series)/AD-PR40-2C-24D

Let me know what you think and thanks again.

The relay that you linked has a DC coil, and all of the sprinkler equipment that I've seen is 24vac. The relay for 24vac use is this one - http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Power_Relays,_Open-Style,_40A_%28AD-PR40_Series%29/AD-PR40-2C-24A

Thanks for replying Queequeg, I am waiting on a book, Ugly's electrical desk ref. Covers a bunch of stuff. I need to double check the cubic inch requirements and such. Might have to put in a box extender at j box under the range.

Also waiting on word back on a proper 24v timer, it is not a power supplying timer but one that you are referring to I think. It would just be a digital timer that would send current to the 24v coil activating the relay. This timer would be powered from an entirely different 120v circuit with a battery back up that just keeps the clock right in the event of a power outage. No power other than 24v would be emitted from this timer.

If I can get away with 2 ballasts per 20A at 240v breaker then that would be great.

I have been told that I would need a disconnect installed forward and within site of the relay. Early thoughts on that would be another small 8-4 sub pannel with a single 40A breaker that goes out to the relay. $9 for the sub and $6 or so for the breaker is the cheapest alternative I can come up with on this so far.

Your switch on the timer is a great idea, as is the pilot light showing power at the relay. Any links on that pilot would be appreciated. Thanks for your support, and advice.

It is almost impossible to overfill a box and still get the cover on, wire simply won't lay flat enough to allow it.

What size lights are you using? On 240v, 1000w fixtures will pull roughly 4.5 amps with the ballast losses added in. You could easily run 2 of them on a 15a breaker.

The disconnect in sight of the relay is incorrect information - remote disconnects are required for things like a/c condenser units, but not for control devices.

Check around on the Automation Direct site for pilot lights, they have a wide variety of them. Onlinecomponents.com is another good source for top shelf gear at reasonable prices.

 

[Sluicebox]

Nice save there Rives, thanks.

 

[queequeg152]

Your switch on the timer is a great idea, as is the pilot light showing power at the relay. Any links on that pilot would be appreciated. Thanks for your support, and advice.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=allen+bradley+pilot&_pgn=4&_skc=150&rt=nc

i like to buy used junk... pinching pennies and such. but yea like rives said, that PLC website you linked should carry them as well.

 

[Sluicebox]

Nothing wrong with saving money, thanks for the links. What does that mean, "Push to test, pilot light?" I was assuming the light would only indicate power at the relay, as would the hum of the ballasts.

 

[rives]

I don't see where you got it, but usually a push-to-test function has a separate set of contacts that allow you to check and see if the light is functional when the circuit isn't on.

 

[Sluicebox]

Rather than trying to do all this work and only wind up with a flip flop set up I am curious if this would work.

Replace 40A at main with 60A run 6-3 copper out to 8-16 sub-containing
30/30A quad - for lights
15A air conditioning room A (12 amps) 12-2 awg
15A air conditioning room B (12 amps) 12-2 awg
15A wall fans room A (4 wall fans, 1- 8" inline fan) 12-2 awg
15A wall fans room B (4 wall fans, 1-8" inline fan) 12-2 awg
15A Dehumidifier/ and pump room A (dehu is 6.9 amps) 12-2 awg
15A Dehumidifier/ and pump room B ( dehu is 6.9 amps) 12-2 awg

as for the 30/30 quad- out of that with 8-3 copper to a box containing 2x 30A double pole SINGLE throw contactor/relays with 24v ac coils. Controlled by 24vac timer. Timer controls each room independently. No need to flip flop.

from the relays out to 2x 4-8 subs via 8-3 copper containing
2x 15A double pole breakers 240v- out to 2x 20A recepts via 12-2 awg neutrals marked hot.
1x 15A single pole 120v- out to 1x recept via 12-2 awg for inline fan on lights.
one of these for each room. This way each room could be ran at either 18 or 12 hrs and allows for air cond.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[Sluicebox]

That should have read: from the 30/30 quad out via 2x 8-3 copper to a box containing relays.

For that box can I just gut an 8-16 sub so it is empty and install the relays in it? I could leave the ground and neutral buss in it and use them in conjunction with the relays. Meaning that is where the ground and neutral wires would go.

That 6-3 run is less than 20 feet.

Also note 6-3 runs from the main, not out of the old range plug. Old range circuit would be removed.

This set up runs 4 1k lights per room, 2 rooms. 8 ballasts total.

 

[Sluicebox]

Lastly that main service will be hot. I intend to do all the work down line first then run the 6-3 to first sub.

If I get correct PPE and wore that while installing 6-3 wire and 60A breaker would I be ok in case I inadvertently contacted something in the main panel?

That 6-3 has the grounds spun around the other 3 wires and is thick to work with. It would be easy to jam that into a pole in the main on accident.

I am familiar with how to twist those grounds on the 6-3 to correctly install them in the ground bus.

My main concern with this is over loading the ampacity of the main service panel. It is only rated at 125 amps. None of the circuits are or would run at full capacity.

 

[queequeg152]

just get your service disconnected at the transformer. it costs like 50 bucks here, you dont need to be an electrician as far as i know.

i do not know whats involved in getting them out to turn it back on through... its possible they need to see an inspection ticket or something. id seriously look into that if you are uncomfortable.
dont hold me to this... but i THINK the power companies liability stops at the meter? meaning i think they only care about quality of install up to the meter itself? IDK for sure.

where you get ass raped is in disconnecting your service completely and terminating your service with the power company. they usually charge you like 200 bucks to reinstate service.

with the MCB off, you SHOULD be able to work saftly, but who knows what your panel looks like. i know only what mine looks like.
if its possible to have it disconnected and reconnected without inspection issues, id reccomend you do it for peace of mind.

regarding exceeding your main panels ampacity... its unlikely in my experiance.

you can do a residential demand load calculation... they publish books just for this. i doubt you will trip the mcb though. i worried that my welding cart would trip the MCB when the heater and ac was running... pool pump etc, but sit down and do the math, its pretty hard.

you can check the service cable feeding your meter for its size and insulation to find out the maximum ampacity you can handle. you will find that its probably much larger than your mcb ampacity.
we have 4/0 direct burial aluminum cable which i think is rated for 250 amps? however our panel was set up with a 150 amp mcb. evidentally the cost difference in say 2/0 cable and 4/0 cable is pretty small on a per foot basis.

should you find that you have excess ampacity in your service/entrance cable, you can have your panel re worked or replaced with something larger.

 

[queequeg152]

Rather than trying to do all this work and only wind up with a flip flop set up I am curious if this would work.

Replace 40A at main with 60A run 6-3 copper out to 8-16 sub-containing
30/30A quad - for lights
15A air conditioning room A (12 amps) 12-2 awg
15A air conditioning room B (12 amps) 12-2 awg
15A wall fans room A (4 wall fans, 1- 8" inline fan) 12-2 awg
15A wall fans room B (4 wall fans, 1-8" inline fan) 12-2 awg
15A Dehumidifier/ and pump room A (dehu is 6.9 amps) 12-2 awg
15A Dehumidifier/ and pump room B ( dehu is 6.9 amps) 12-2 awg

as for the 30/30 quad- out of that with 8-3 copper to a box containing 2x 30A double pole SINGLE throw contactor/relays with 24v ac coils. Controlled by 24vac timer. Timer controls each room independently. No need to flip flop.

from the relays out to 2x 4-8 subs via 8-3 copper containing
2x 15A double pole breakers 240v- out to 2x 20A recepts via 12-2 awg neutrals marked hot.
1x 15A single pole 120v- out to 1x recept via 12-2 awg for inline fan on lights.
one of these for each room. This way each room could be ran at either 18 or 12 hrs and allows for air cond.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

imho it does not make sense to use quad breakers when you already are proposing a full sized panel. .. they cost like 40 bucks and are going to crowd the install a bit more.

just get individual breakers, you are not at a loss for space in a new panel.

quad breakers are for folks with full panels looking to add single pole circuits by replacing a 2 pole breaker with a quad.

suppose they could be used to replace 2 non slim single poles as well but what ever. point is they are for working around full panels.

also not all manufacturers carry quad breakers... square d homeline being one i can remember. i reccomended a quad way back in the thread when you were proposing to use a small single space sub panel.

regarding your ac breakers, personally id never run seperate ac units like that for each room. if it were me id run a 2 pole 20 amp breaker for a single ac unit.
should be able to run 2 tons off 20 amps.

regardless of what type of ac system you go with, a modular air handler(ah that comes without a coil) could be used to distribute filtered air to both rooms

 

[Sluicebox]

I'd love to get an air handler like that when I can afford to upgrade. However I already picked up two 15k btu window units. I will go with the two separate breakers vs the quad, your right, I should have room and saves me $.

Does everything else about the run sound ok?

I do have to do a roof repair near the mast head (weather head) soon. I could just tell the power company that and get my shut off for 1/2 day, no inspection on panel?

It's not a major repair, just changing a boot on a vent pipe in metal roof. That vent pipe though is in fairly close proximity to mast head and incoming lines. $50 reconnect is not that steep. I just don't want them in my house. I will call power co tomorrow and ask about that.

Thanks for everything.

 

[queequeg152]

I'd love to get an air handler like that when I can afford to upgrade. However I already picked up two 15k btu window units. I will go with the two separate breakers vs the quad, your right, I should have room and saves me $.

Does everything else about the run sound ok?

I do have to do a roof repair near the mast head (weather head) soon. I could just tell the power company that and get my shut off for 1/2 day, no inspection on panel?

It's not a major repair, just changing a boot on a vent pipe in metal roof. That vent pipe though is in fairly close proximity to mast head and incoming lines. $50 reconnect is not that steep. I just don't want them in my house. I will call power co tomorrow and ask about that.

Thanks for everything.

you can get a non ecm modular air handler for like 300 bucks, but yea i get what you are saying. as far as i could tell everything else seemed ok to me so long as you are not ever trying to run both rooms at once. but thats what the breaker is for.

dont quote me on the 50 bucks, but yea its supposed to be cheap. it might even be free in your area.

while you are up on the roof, try to figure out what the service cables are. and write it down inside your panel.

get a non contact voltage detector pen thing and some linemans.